8' x 8' Layout

[Bob Hayes]

Mac,
Glad to see you've given up on the suspended layout idea. Years ago during a LA division layout tour, I visited a layout that was about 16x16, suspended from the rafters of a 20x20 garage. It was one large "sheet" of layout and every time someone bumped it, the whole thing moved, not enough to derail the cars, but a couple of inches of gentle sway. And the guy who built it had some fancy system he needed to raise the layout in such a manner as to keep it level. A very involved system of cables and pulleys and electric winches. Eventually, the layout was given away and the builder moved to Airzona, I think. As I mentioned on another thread, check out David Barrow's "dominos" and see what you can do with 4x8 sheets of plywood.
Bob Hayes

[BRJN]

If you INSIST on making a table out of two 4x8's, consider this:

There is a trick where you cut an equilateral triangle off each corner of the table, rearrange all the triangles on one end, and get a pointy-ended 8-foot-long table with less wasted space in the corners. If you do something like this on both tables, you would get a balanced L with pointy ends. If you put the L in a corner of the room, there would be a triangle-shaped hole for access right in the corner. (I think big enough to stand up in, but I'm skinny.) You STILL have a long reach to most places, though. But if you decide to hide the back sides of the layout (say as storage tracks under/behind a mountain), the pop-up hole would allow you to 0-5-0 cars where it won't be visible from the front 'active' area. This helps maintain the illusion.

[Anonymous]

... you best believe i'm heeding the advice of these veterans and splitting them badboys into 2' x 8's [or 30" x 8']and planning on running a 48-inch high shelf u-shape. I'm dedicating a 9' x 10' x 12' area and it can get pretty tight in there, and i'm searching layout plans that will give me max space [more suggestions?]. I scoped around the neighborhood for a hobby shop, and [to my surprised] the clerk was chompin' at the bits to educate this rookie. I've picked up a Model Railroad magazine and other how-to-do mags. I also have 2 sheets of 4' x 8' foam for subterrains and other use [any suggestions on risers?] Basically, any thoughts of winching an 8' x 8' is ancient history.

[ukguy]

Being a 'born again' modeller I have recently started construction on a layout which I innitially thought would work just fine in the space I have available. 25'x30' workshop. Unfortunately the shop has benchwork on every wall housing my table saw, mitre saw, table router, etc. As I use the benchwork regularly for home and business projects I needed a layout that was unobtrusive to the room. I came up with the idea for a counterbalanced tabletop which could be raised out of the way when not in use.(pic on profile) "great idea!!" I thought. It is an 8'x6' area with the double track running in two ovals, one on each tier, this means that all track is accessable for rerailments. The center which will be pretty inaccesable is where the town will be, each street block will be a diorama type unit fixed through the board, but removeable for future updates and scene changes. While this layout will be a good starting point for a new beginer (me) I have decided that it will be my learning curve layout, where I will tryout and practice new techniques, and my ever plentiful crackpot ideas. I have already discoved that it cannot be expanded easily and I am pretty much fixed in any further developments of the layout which is not what I really wanted, with all that said I have already decided that I need a modular layout, this will be in 30"x4' sections which can be stored 2 high under my workbenches on shelf rails. I can currently store eight modular pieces plus two turn around return ends if needed, this will give me a running area of 32' which will be more than enough for my very amature skills to handle. In my opinion, which is based on no exact science or real experience, this would offer me almost endless possibilities. I can work on one section at a time and finish it stage by stage, thus getting a sense of completion and not an endless daunting task. and I can add or remove modules at will to hopefully increase and expand the layout when time, money and space permit. Personally I'm going to go modular, the more I think about it and plan it the more it suits my needs and situation, of course you need to decide what is best for you, but the most common advice I have seen on here for new people (and I wish I had seen it sooner) is think long and hard and spend as much time as possible researching and evaluating the options before spending a big wad of cash. luckily I didnt spend much $$ just alot of time, we live and learn. Take care and I hope it all goes well.

[Anonymous]

... the "along the wall" layout might be a possibility. I do have a small 10' x 12' spare bedroom that's basically a tv/catch-all room. It could get tight in there with the closet and window. But, i think i can get a nice size L-shape in there with levels. Thanks for all the ideas, keep'em coming, very helpful. I did find a local hobby shop and bought a copy of Model Railroader, Basic Beginner.

Mac

[MisterBeasley]

Does anyone have experience with using big casters, like supermarket cart wheels? This would give the advantage of being able to put a 4x8 against the wall, where the back side would normally be inaccessible, but you could roll it out when you were doing some scenery or track work. Yes, you'd need some significantly more rigid floor structure, but would this be workable?

[Anonymous]

I wouldn't pursue the hoist idea in any scale. Some concept of the pupose of your road must be in mind within the limitations of space and materials available. N Gauge puts severe limitations on "scratch building" rolling stock for future modeling challenges. Bench work layouts offer the greatest flexibility and stability while large flat areas are a less efficient use of space and materials. The so called "radial aisle" concept yields maximum running "mainline" foot for linear foot than any other I know about. Bracing off of a masonry wall by using 2"X4" as a vertical anchor (toggle bolted to wall) then flanked on either side by 1"X4" boards to form a triangle with a horizontal 2"X4" joist (supporting roadbed from wall to desired width) gives very strong support. The horizontal 2"X4" (top of triangle) is wood screwed to the top of the vertical 2"X4" (wall mounted) stud. You must be aware of any interior wiring that might exist behind the masonry wall before drilling into it. You may choose any vertical clearance from the floor level to the base of the triangle that will give you adequate storage space. I would recommend coming off the "braced" area with bench work to whatever mainline configuration you choose. Best of luck in your endeavors.

[Jetrock]

An L shape is generally more accessible (except the very center of the L) because for the most part you don't have to reach in more than two feet, but you still run into a lot of the access problems. And since such a layout would be unbalanced (as opposed to a generally symmetrical 8x8 or 4x8 table) it would be much harder to balance if suspended from the ceiling.

More ideas for your two pieces of plywood: Cut 'em in half lengthwise, and build a 16x10 C-shaped layout around the perimeter of your garage (or 20x8) at 48" off the ground, while still maintaining about 100 square feet of unimpeded space in the center of the room, nicer-looking curves (trains look better from the inside of a curve than the outside, and larger radii are easier to manage too), and storage space underneath the layout.

Code 83 is a little smaller (.017" smaller) and the ties are generally smaller, so it's not quite as out-of-scale, but generally I find that Code 100 looks okay, better if it is painted to kill the shine. It's more of a personal decision, I'd suppose.

[Anonymous]

... thanks for the advice, any more ideas for 2 sheets of 4 x 8? How 'bout an L shape? Also, are there significant differences between the HO codes 100, 83, etc?

[PennsyHoosier]

Maybe I missed it in here, but you might also take a look at the new Model Railroads Step by Step, with DVD. There could be some helpful information and ideas in there for you.

[robengland]

Listen to all the good advice about around-the-walls design. 8' is SHORT by HO standards. My layout is 12' long and I can't fit a nice town in it without lots of curved turnouts etc to squeeze it all in. My maximum train length is 7 cars.

if you go N scale it is fine, but for HO you can't do anything much in 8' - it is all curves if you choose a nice radius like 22 or 24". The same area of plywood run around the walls as 12-24" shelves will give you nice long sides, room for broad curves round the corners etc etc

Since it is a garage, storage space is an issue. you can put the shelf at say 4' or even 5' off the floor and still have plenty of storage below. Put a removable bridge across the garage door and you can run a full lap of the garage. No harder than building a hoisted layout. There are real engineering issues with a layout on a hoist, including:
1) safety - there better be no way it can fall down
2) limited clearance - no room for high mountains
3) limited weight - gotta make scenery out of foam, plaster will be too heavy
4) needs some form of very stable support when it is down, can't just swing there, else every time someone bumps it the trains will be off the rails
5) needs very smooth operation, esle trains off the rails again every time it hits the end of its movement

but most of all it is just not efficient use of space to put the layout in the middle of the room. Bolt it safely to the walls.

Given that you will eventually invest thousands of dollars in a layout that size, I suggest a few bucks on some of the layout planning books is money well spent. Track Planning for Realistic Operation is a classic. There are lots more on planning, benchwork etc etc at http://store.yahoo.com/kalmbachcatalog/model-railroading-books.html

Me I'm planning to throw away what I've done so far, but I'm happy with that as I have been learnign as I go. You may want to take the same approach: knock together something knowing you will start again in a year or two.

Also visit some other layouts in HO and in N so you can get a feel for what scale is right for you.

Have fun
Rob

[Jetrock]

Conductor Mac: With a 2x2 cutout at the edge (rather than the center) of the layout, you'll still have a good chunk of the layout that is relatively inaccessible--a 3-foot reach may not seem like much, until you're trying to reach over 3 feet of scenery and trains to do some fine detail work.

Try this at home: Find a 3 foot wide bookshelf/other piece of furniture of the planned height of your layout. Get all the glassware in the house, and set it on top of this piece of furniture. Put a notepad on the far side. From the near side, reach over the glassware and write a couple sentences with a pen. Hopefully you did this over carpet or you may now have a couple broken pieces of glassware.

You probably have enough room to run around the wall--my layout is in an 8'x18' garage, and goes around the wall (currently two walls but preparing to take over a third) in what is probably much less space than your room (since an 8'x8' square would be totally inaccessible on two sides in my space.) Workout equipment can be moved to the center of the room, storage shelves do just fine above and below layout level, and you can build the layout a piece at a time.

Another advantage to an around-the-wall is that you CAN'T see the whole layout at once, which makes it seem much larger.

As far as scale goes, HO is the most common, has the most stuff available, is the cheapest, and is a pretty flexible scale. If you like running long, long trains and modern equipment, N might be the way to go. If you love narrow gauge, look into On30.

A lot depends on your preferences--what type of railroad equipment, what era, what geography, makes your heart go pit-a-pat the most? That's the place to start when it comes to choosing theme, style, or location.

[bogp40]

Sounds like this room is at least 14x14. If you have at least this size to work with, you have many options for the layout. Don't limit yourself to such a small full walk around style, eventually you will come to regret your choice. Not a sufficient length for any workable yard, backdrops will become a problem, still have areas with a deep reach. An around the wall configuration, a folded dogbone with peninsulas, with enough run of long wall, you could drop elevation to staging or lower level. Explore your options before planting track on plywood, you will be happier in the end.
Bob K.

[Anonymous]

If you were to place the 4x8's about 2 feet apart, would you still have room to walk around the outside? That would make it an 8'x10' and you would need a 2'x2' section at one end of the space between the sheets to connect them. This would give you what's called a "Waterwings" style layout. Your idea of putting a 2x2 notch in one side will still make it a long reach to some areas. Mountains, buildings, etc. will be in your way once you start doing the scenery. And the bridge through the 2x2 notch may be 'out' more than it is in.

[Anonymous]

My layout will be an 11x22 layout design from just a 4x8 board. I basically have 2 4x8 boards connected at the end, making it a 4x16, then I have a 4x11 board turned sideways which makes the whole thing so far an 11x20, then I have 3 3x6 boards connected to the side of the other board which makes the whole thing an 11x22 ft. layout. If you want to read a short intro to this layout, visit my under construction website(which is only one page) at http://www.geocities.com/trainman220002000/drgw5505.html

[Anonymous]

Jetrock,
... the 2' x 2' cut-out will be on the outer edge of the layoff. Being that i can walk around the layout, i should be able to reach all points. Then again, i'm still in the process of planning the first stage. I was given some O-gauge track, but just about every layout pic i've seen has HO gauge track. Two weeks ago, i didn't know O-Gauge from O.J. Now, the HO gauge is really catching my attention, especially with all the available space on an 8' x 8' or 64 sq ft. layout. Also, the mention of splitting those 4' x 8' could be a possibility. But, the reason i want to hoist is that the other half of my garage is workout equipment, tv viewing, and i don't quite have enough room to run tracks along the wall. Anyway, whats your [or anyone's] take on scale sizes, i.e, accessory choices, engines and cars, derailment factors, monetary bang, etc.

Thanks
Mac

[Jetrock]

A 2x2 hole is fairly small, and it means you will have to crawl under 3 feet of layout to get to it. Also, you'll always want to have that access hole, even after things are "up and running"--locomotives and rolling stock have a perverse habit of derailing at the point farthest from the layout edge. A lift-out or drop-down panel is a possibility--something that can be lifted out of the way--but even then, most of the middle of your layout will generally be either inaccessible or not particularly usable, unless you really want a lot of scenery.

How big is the space in which you are going to put the layout? Would it be easier to build an along-the-wall layout by ripping those 4x8 sheets in half to 2x8 and setting them against the walls? It would also save construction of heavy pulley arrangements and extra-strong layout bracing framework to manage such an engineering feat.

[rrinker]

Well, you could cut those 4x8 sheets in half the long way, making 4 sheets that are 2x8, and form an 8x12 layout from that, with a 4x8 opening in the center. This is what I am working on right now, although I didn't start with 2 sheets of plywood, I built some frames from 1x4 lumber and put 2x8 sheets of extruded foam on them.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the input. Being that i will use a hoist in the garage, perhaps i can go with a 2' x 2' cut-out along a center edge which will allow access to all points of the board. Once i have things up and running, i can use a bridge over the 2' x 2' gap... extension, expansion, tresles, etc. If you have any more input, please give me a holler.

Thanks
Mac

[jhoff310]

Kinda funny, I just started work today on phase 1 of my layout. I did the same. I took 2 4X8s and placeed them together and cut a 3'X 4' hole in the center of the 2. I then took 1" blue foam board and glued that down on top for added strength. Going to wait a few days for the glue to completely dry then tackle benchwork. Going to be 46" high table top style with braces every 14". When I get more done I will post my progress pics here for you all to see.
JEff

[eng22]

I did my 5x9 layout on 2 inch extruded foam. It is set on a 1x3 frame work. The 1x3 are on 12 inch centers. I have found it simple and easy to work with.

[Paul Milenkovic]

First suggestion is not to make it a solid 8'x8' by not providing any access to it apart from the sides. 8'x8' implies a 4' reach to get to the inner workings, and any reach greater than 18" to 24" is considered long.

Second suggestion is that 4' x 8' plywood sheets need some kind of support underneath to keep them from bending and warping and having your trains fight with those misalignments. The traditional support is a box frame to which the plywood is attached by screws on the top.

The L-girder system was promoted by Lynn Wescott of Model Railroader editorship fame of long ago -- there must be Kalmbach books talking about it. L-girder looks more complicated, but it is very strong and economical of materials and extremely flexible. The basic idea is that you construct L-girders by gluing board lumber into an "L" and using enough screws to allow the glue to grab hold. I have used 4" by 1" for the vertical and 2" by 1" for the cap. You attach legs (like 2" by 4" studs) as legs and cross-brace as needed to make this skeleton table stable. On top of the 2" by 1" cap you put cross pieces (the "joists") and attached to the cross pieces you put risers with perhaps cleats on them (like the L-girder) to allow attaching the actual plywood, which becomes your sub roadbed.

Plywood is a difficult material to spike into, and if you hold down flex or sectional track with those Atlas-brand 3/8" spike-nails, you may want to drill small pilot holes so that the nail doesn't mush down and bend the tie inward so the track gauge is overtight and trains jump the track. This is true if you put track directly on the plywood (for a branchline or yard type effect) or use cork roadbed/ballast strip (for a mainline effect). The other thing to try is Homosote between the track and the plywood -- I have seen 2' by 4' 1/2" Homosote in the shelving materials area at Menards here in Wisconsin. Homosote is beautiful material to hold spikes (Celotex or other fiber boards are not equivalents!), but folks have complained about all the fibrous dust when you cut it and there are concerns about warpage if you have it in a very humid basement.

So much for the "traditional" or "standard" model of layout benchwork. A lot of work is being done these days with extruded polystyrene foam benchwork -- there is a recent thread on this forum going into all the pros and cons.

As to track plans on 8' by 8', most of the "beginner" track plans are for 4' by 8' or a bit larger. The authority on planning larger layouts has to be Track Planning for Realistic Operation by John Armstrong, Kalmbach Publishing.

[Anonymous]

... i'm embarking on a layout with two 4' x 8' sheets of plywood. Being that i'm a novice, i'm not about to get too complicated wth layout configurations, extra trains, etc. But, i would love some pointers, help, on a simple layout of mountain tunnels, farm, town, etc. If you can provide a link to some 8' x 8' layouts, i would really appreciated it.