I have begun planning my first real & permanent HO scale layout. The layout will model the area around the Cuyahoga River in downtown Cleveland Ohio, circa late 40's to early 50's. I chose this era because I am fascinated with the post-war period and passenger operations at Cleveland Union Terminal (Terminal Tower/Tower City today).
Right now the layout is in the research, concept, and planning phase because I have not yet occupied the house where the layout will be built. If all goes well with the sale of our current house, we should be in the new house in a couple weeks.
The basement in the new house is 26' x 68' and is completely unfinished. It has a concrete block wall running the long length that partitions the basement into a 12' x 68 partition and a 14' x 46' partition. The area of the basement negotiated with the Homestead Executive Board (my wife...) is the 14' x 46' partition. I will probably use an area of about 14' x 30' for the layout. That should be plenty.
I have not even completed my list of Givens & Druthers yet. Here are a few to get me started:
I hope to begin physical construction sometime in the next couple months. There will of course be a lot of preparation of the basement area before any actual layout building occurs. The house was built in 1965 so I want to upgrade the electrical panel because it won't allow any more circuits to be added, and possibly move it as well because it is located in the area where the layout is. I also want to finish the walls and ceiling of the partition containing the layout. Fortunately the basement is dry and the walls are in great condition so at least that won't be an issue.
I will keep this post updated periodically and I hope to get pointers from the community as I progress. I also have a blog and the link is in my profile.
Thanks for reading!
Jeff
Jeff, your project fascinates me because I too love the old downtown passenger stations and passenger train operations.
As a lifelong Chicagoan, I am planning to model Dearborn Station on my next layout, and I face the same compression challenges that you do.
In looking at some old photos of the Cleveland Union Terminal complex, it should be feasible to construct a credible replica of the actual prototype.
Keep us posted on your progress and welcome to the forums.
Rich
Alton Junction
Are you going to model the Cuyahoga River on fire or?
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Geared Steam Are you going to model the Cuyahoga River on fire or?
richhotrain In looking at some old photos of the Cleveland Union Terminal complex, it should be feasible to construct a credible replica of the actual prototype.
Rich,
You are spot on, and I think this will go nicely into a corner. Right now the idea I have is to model the street level and buildings directly above the passenger platforms. The terminal tower itself is not actually above the tracks, it is "behind" the platform area or to the north of it. Depending on the room I have, the tower itself could end up being a scaled down version, a backdrop flat, or even just a backdrop photo or painting. I will probably model about 4-6 tracks with platforms under the street level, and maybe 3-5 coach yard tracks. My goal is to be able to make the tracks long enough for 7 passenger cars of 85' length with locomotives. The tracks will have to start into curves at both ends to allow me to wrap the station around the corner.
Here's a photo of the street level area above the platform area facing northwest, taken in 1929. This is the area that I want to concentrate on modeling, at least initially. The concourse street level entrance is the building in the foreground. The US Post Office building has not been built yet but it will eventually be built over the gap seen above or to the northwest of the entrance, between the two streets running horizontally in the photo. You can see the coach yard tracks out in the open along the left side of the photo, and some of the platforms can be seen in the gap towards the top of the photo.
Here's what the area looks like today. Looking at this view it is easy to see how the whole area could be tucked into a corner on a layout. I'm not sure when the concourse building above was replaced with the glass domed structure in this photo. I'll have to do some more research on that to see if I should model the glass or not for my time period. Maybe I'll just do the building at first and then my graduate level work will be to replace the building with glass and model some of the concourse interior below it, similar to what Cliff Powers did with the New Orleans Union Passenger Terminal on his Mississippi, Alabama, and Gulf layout.
Of course, the whole street level area modeled will have to be able to be lifted out to allow me to service the tracks underneath. I will also have to research how head-end cars such as express, baggage, and mail were handled.
Jeff, based upon my experience with modeling large downtown passenger stations, I will share some additional thoughts with you.
1. You do have the advantage of a station configuration in which the tracks are pass-through as opposed to stub end tracks. On my layout, modeling Dearborn Station, the tracks are stub-end which means that trains have to be turned around. One question though, since you plan to restrict you layout to a 14' x 30' area, how do you plan to connect the station tracks to the rest of the layout to permit unrestricted running of the trains?
2. Dearborn Station was a terminus to six road names. You mention four road names that used Cleveland Union Terminal. Our common problem is the space required to model all of the road names, plus the amount of equipment needed including locomotives and passenger cars.
3. Like you, I run a locomotive consist (AB, AA, ABBA) and six or seven 85' passenger cars which requires up to 9' or 10' of track length. So, space is a real consideration.
4. To be credible, you need to model quite a few passenger tracks. That will require another demand on available space. I model 10 passenger tracks, and that can become a real challenge with space and routing, not to mention the number of turnouts required to pull it off.
5. You have the advantage of a coach yard being close by the station. In my case, the coach yards were distant from the station, so that meant additional modeling space consumed between the station and the coach yard(s). Do you plan to model switching operations in and out of the yard? What about engine servicing facilities?
Just some of my thoughts.
The terminal will be the only stop for the passenger trains but I would like to see them approaching for a bit before they arrive, and also watch them for a bit after they leave. I don't want to just have them disappear to or appear from a tunnel or hidden staging as soon as they leave/arrive at the station. Approaching the terminal from the west, the tracks run over a long viaduct that is almost a mile long in real life because it crosses the Cuyahoga River valley. I'd like to model a representation of that and have it span the aisles too so I will either have duckunder or removeable sections of it. Once that viaduct gets to somewhere far enough on the other side of the layout I will probably have it disappear into below level staging. The eastern approach to the station is somewhat in a cut and there are freight tracks above it, below it, and next to it, so I think it will probably snake around the walls and then disappear to the same below level staging area.
I don't have to model every railroad that used Cleveland Union Terminal, just their passenger trains. For instance, I don't have to model Erie trackage if I don't want to (I certainly could if I wanted to because it was there), but I can have a couple of Erie trains operate in and out of the terminal. Because of the way the Cuyahoga River winds through downtown Cleveland, the area was a spaghetti bowl of several different railroads that paralleled, crossed over & under, and interchanged freight with each other, so it isn't outside the realm of possibilities to operate several different lines in a small area.
I think you are right, I will need to model more than just 3 or 4 tracks to make it look like a large union station. If I do end up in a corner with it, I may have to come out further than my 30" reach and maybe have an access area behind the station. I could also include some shorter traction tracks in the back and some of them could be stub ended as well.
Passenger train switching will be the main event at CUT. Even though there was a coach yard & servicing facility right there at the terminal, all of the railroads using the terminal had storage coach yards off site. I probably won't be able to model those although the Erie and NKP yards were pretty close to the terminal. Cleveland was roughly the halfway point between NYC and Chicago or St. Louis and a lot of the long distance trains that stopped in Cleveland dropped off and/or picked up sleepers, coaches, diners, parlor & chair cars, etc. There were also a lot of regional passenger trains that originated and/or terminated in Cleveland. Those can be the shorter trains that can operate off shorter tracks.
There weren't any locomotive servicing facilities at CUT. For passenger trains there were locomotive facilites at Collinwood (east) and Linndale (west) and that was done during the swap from steam to CUT electrics prior to dieselization. Both of those yards are outside the area I am modeling, and in later years I think diesel servicing was done elsewhere along the routes and not in Cleveland at all. There was express service (REA) and US Mail at CUT though.
I'm sure I'm going to change my mind 100 times during planning & construction as I come to realize things that are a bridge too far (pun intended) for me to accomplish. My goal is to build this thing in small stages to get trains running early so I don't become so wrapped up in construction that I lose interest in it. I will most likely start at river level and move up in elevation as I go, so CUT itself may not even come until way later in the project. If that ends up being the case, by the time I get to it I will have a better feel for how it will work.
Hi, Jeff
I admire your ambition to model one of my favorite hangouts in the late '60s & '70s.
I would often spend Wednesday evenings and some weekends at C.U.T. working on cars owned by the Midwest Chapter of the NRHS that were stored there. I missed the "glory days" of course but there was still a bit of activity there right up to April 30, 1971 when the last of the Penn-Central trains passed through there.
I invite you to watch one of my YouTube videos from the era that has a little C.U.T. scenery in there.
I got to ride behind the P-2a's when they were still running into GCT from Harmon. What an impressive locomotive! I could just imagine them climbing the 1.56% grade up the Cuyahoga Viaduct with a sixteen car train in tow!
Now if only we could figure out how to produce the unique C.U.T. catenary supports... humm?
CUT_P1a_214 by Edmund, on Flickr
Your plans certainly look like you have things well in hand. I look forward to watching your progress!
Have Fun! Ed
Ed, that is a wonderful video.
I was surprised to see the train backing into the station.
Aren't all of the tracks pass through
Hi, Rich
During the day, while all the passengers (mostly E-L employees!) are in the office, the engine and cars are serviced at the E.55th St. yard about three miles east of Union Terminal, then in the evening, about 4:45 PM the train would back down for boarding and a 5:20 PM departure for Youngstown.
This train ran into the Conrail era (briefly) and was discontinued in early 1977. The E-8 #833 is preserved in Erie paint by the NY&GL Railway. http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=461826&nseq=13
Yes, the CUT was a through station (even though it was called a Terminal) but many trains originated or ended there. Up until 1952 the big P-1a electrics hauled most trains in and out of CUT.
Jeff's plan for modeling this area is great since there is quite a bit of interesting operation to be modeled here...
Thanks for the kudos on the video, Ed
Hi Ed,
Yes, I agree that CUT is a very interesting downtown passenger station to model.
How did the E-L trains get turned?
richhotrainHow did the E-L trains get turned?
There was a turntable at the cramped E.55th St. engine house. The cars stayed in the same orientation and the seats were turned.
In Youngstown, the train "overnighted" at the Brier Hill yard.
B&O trains using C.U.T. had to back out, then traverse about a mile long connecting track before heading to Akron or Sterling, Ohio, to join the main line.
Ed
Love the video. It's nice to see some historic shots of the area. I also like the PCC cars on the rapid line overtaking the 833. That locomotive is a thing of beauty and one of these days I need to take a road trip to New York to see her. A few years back, Life-Like released some DCC-ready Proto-2000 E8's and Erie 827 was one of them and I have a copy that I picked up on Ebay for $56.
Rich, there was a turntable at the E. 55th St. yard, although I have no idea what year it was demolished. There is a scrapyard on the site today.
There was a shot of the Kingsbury Viaduct (E. 34th St.) which was just west of the E. 55th St. Yard and was where the Erie line eastbound to Youngstown split off the NKP line into CUT back in the day. That was also an interchange spot between the two railroads. The shot in the video where 833 moved through a crossover to the right was probably taken from the Kingsbury Viaduct.
Erie didn't actually start using CUT until 1948 because they didn't want to pay CUT for the electric transfer. 1948 was when Erie finally replaced steam passenger locomotoves with diesels, which could run into CUT under their own power. I'll have to do some more research but I don't think Cleveland was even on the Erie mainline to/from Chicago. From Cleveland, the Erie line only ran eastbound. I'm wondering if all the Erie passenger trains terminated and/or originated in Cleveland and were only eastbound or coming from the east.
Cheers
gmpullman richhotrain How did the E-L trains get turned? There was a turntable at the cramped E.55th St. engine house. The cars stayed in the same orientation and the seats were turned. In Youngstown, the train "overnighted" at the Brier Hill yard. B&O trains using C.U.T. had to back out, then traverse about a mile long connecting track before heading to Akron or Sterling, Ohio, to join the main line. Ed
richhotrain How did the E-L trains get turned?
Ed ---
I know B&O 17 and 18 (to Akron & D.C.) backed up or down the switchback, but what B&O passenger trains went west out of C.U.T. to Sterling? The Wheeling train went via Akron, didn't it? Or were you talking about extras?
Tom
You're right, Tom.
I was sorting through this paragraph from the Akron Railroad Club's site:
Passenger service to Valley Junction on the B&O Valley line ended September 30, 1934, but service continued on the route between Cleveland and Akron. A Cleveland-Wheeling train, which used the Chicago line between Akron and Warwick and the Cleveland, Lorain & West Virginia between Warwick and Wheeling, ended September 29, 1951. That left theCleveland Night Express as the last Valley line train. The Cleveland-Washington train began its final runs on February 4, 1963.
I know there were several specials and fan trips run on the CL&W but they ran out of the W. 3rd St. Yard and not CUT. There were a few specials run out of CUT and down the C&TV to Akron and beyond but it wasn't a frequent occurrence.
JEFFREY LESLIE I'll have to do some more research but I don't think Cleveland was even on the Erie mainline to/from Chicago.
No, it sure wasn't. Of course, Erie was looking for a Great Lakes port to generate coal and ore traffic.
Neither was the Chesapeake & Ohio but they were headquartered in Cleveland, too! Right up to the CSX consolidation.
A lot had to do with the brothers, OP and MJ Van Sweringen. They negotiated purchase of the Nickel Plate mainly to get right-of-way for the proposed CUT and their pet Shaker Heights development.
The Vans went on a buying spree after the World War and bought up the Lake Erie & Western and its subsidiaries, the C&O, the Erie, C&EI and even much of the Missouri Pacific!
Read about it here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Sweringen_railroad_holdings
And here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleghany_Corporation
The Van Sweringen's were instrumental in getting CUT built and they had a huge ambition to see it to fruition.
Herbert H. Harwood wrote a pretty hefty book about them. An amazing pair to say the least.
have you started it yet? Ed my name is Doug, I was born and raised in Cleveland,Do you have any pics you could sen of your progress?
locomotive breath have you started it yet? Ed my name is Doug, I was born and raised in Cleveland,Do you have any pics you could sen of your progress?
Doug to the MR forums.
Note if you are not already aware your posts are moderated for the first bit of time so expect a few delays in posting.
What you have done is rejuvenated a thread from 3 years ago. This happens from time to time and is a bit grounded upon but no one really cares that much and if you talk on an old thread people often respond (at least once they are over their confusion...)
Now If you look in the top bar of every post it will say the time/date posted to give you an idea of how old the thread is. This one isn’t too old so most people are still around but the OP (original poster) has only posted 8 times and none of those recently, so it will be hard to get his attention!
Anyway welcome to the forums, and I hope you stick around!
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
Sounds like another case of the "I'm gonnas"...........Seems to be a lot of that going around the last few years.
Kind of discouraging for those that try to help them...........only to never to see anything come to fruitition, and of course their eventual disappearance.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Hi, Doug
As Rich and Mobilman point out, Jeff only made a brief visit here. My layout has been going strong since 1995 and I have a bit of C.U.T. presence but the layout is not modeled after any specific area.
IMG_6782_fix by Edmund, on Flickr
Nice to meet a fellow Clevelander. East Side?
This Flickr album has some layout photos in it:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gmpullman/albums/72157683168096714
Some of my other albums have CUT and various Cleveland photos, too.
Hope to hear from you again!
I believe this is the Original Poster
http://crookedriverrails.blogspot.com/2017/
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction