Plan? What is theis plan that you speak of? LION has never seen a plan, and even if he did, he would probably line the litter box with it and then do things his way.
As I was taking down my second layout, I was planning, in my minds eye what the table would look like. Yes, it is three levels around the east ans south walls. The west wall is windows which demands an isle, But the windo isle is kind of like the arm pit of the layout.
As I was building it the idea was to have two six track storage yards on the lower level, so that level only had ten inches of clearance, and the tracks were completley installed before the second level was built.
My general Idea was a commuter railroad, mostly operating push-pull equipment into "Penn Station". Once out of the station the two track main opened up into a four track main with both local and express stops, One line would diverge and return to the lower level, the other line would clime to a secondary terminal, with two track continuing to the end of the line.
All well and good, and THEN Life-Like introduced SUBWAY CARS. The whole idea of a commuter railroad was scrapped and the line became 100% subway. The lower level yards were no longer needed, they became a four track subway tunnel. The Penn Station commuter terminal was ripped out in favor of a 34th Street subway station. The helix went from two tracks to four.
But how can you operate a SUBWAY if you have only one operator? So I automated the layout and am running eight trains at once, soon to be 10 trains, and I only have to operate the Tower. (Running a local train against the wall is just as boring in HO as it is in 1:1. AUTOMATE it, and let the LPPs run the trains.
You just cannot build this on a plan, you have to go with the flow.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I have one point to add to all the "don't do it" advice. Building without a plan is harder than building from a plan. Some folks have the skills to do it, most don't. If you are dissatisfied with your planning results on paper, how could you possibly think you'd be successful doing it on the fly?
There is lots of planning help available here and on other forums or from professionals. Seek it out.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Building without a plan? I don't reccomend it.
A thought or two:
It is possible that you might be happier with a single deck layout?
I can tell you from experience that the construction of a multideck layout is more than twice as much effort than a single deck.
You are proposing a big layout. Big multideck layouts are commitments that are not to be entered into without some serious thought. They require vast amounts of time, energy and money. They become a lifestyle of sorts, if you are going to make any progress towards completing them in this lifetime.
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Building the layout I currently have under construction would not have been advised without a reasonably detailed plan.
Modeling an HO gauge freelance version of the Union Pacific Oregon Short Line and the Utah Railway around 1957 in a world where Pirates from the Great Salt Lake founded Ogden, UT.
- Photo album of layout construction -
I concur with Mike. You specify that you are already certain that you want three levels, and those grades/transitions would need to be planned. Additionally, the actual track laying on a multi-level layout may need to be constructed in organized stages to allow that before the constriction of the next level up interferes.
Building the shelf or benchwork first without a trackplan can work fine when one is constricted to a set space. At least that is my perspective after having done it. I had a "second bedroom" that needed to keep a bed in the middle, so I built the shelf around the walls knowing that was the maximum space that I could allow for the layout. I then positioned turnouts, structures, and such on the shelf and visualized how things would work. The turntable/roundhouse placement (which had been cut from my earlier layout) was critical. I allowed each of several options to sink in for several days before making my decisions. I am happy with the result, believing that I did organize as much of a workable railroad into the space that I had to work with. I don't think that I would try that with multi-levels.
Bill
Tom,
A few thoughts...
Three decks? I'd be cautious, as a lot of multideck layouts really need some thought given about what is over or below what else. This relates to both ease of construction and later maintenance and operations. You don't want three really busy spots stacked above each other if you're planning for multi-operater operations, even if the aisles are generous. Maybe develop one deck first, the proceed from there? The warm up may give you ideas about how to handle the rest. That said, there's still room for lots for improvisation if you pay attention to a few things now.
Gettting from deck-to-deck is crucial. A nolix tends to depend on the exact location of the grade at least being determined in advance. Yours is a largish space, but the fundamental trade-off between run vs rise needs to be determined in order to get between decks. What might be more flexible -- and you have space for -- is a helix. Preferably, it should at least be double track, so that you can go up or down between levels with more flexibility than a single track helix gives. Determining its location won't solve all your grade issues, but will likely leave you much more flexibility on what you do on each deck.
I have a rather simple nolix design for my layout. My space is a bit limited, so getting its grade right was crucial to things fitting. It's not quite as large as your space but close once my Cascade Branch is taken into account: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/219241.aspx?page=1
There was a small rough plan for it that got me from the main room and up far enough for the storage and staging it would have to be located over. It's on the first page of the above link. After that, I was free-styling and, because I did have room, I just kept going to what is most likely the end of track at Snowden. It was a pleasant task. I think experience elsewhere on the layout and not trying to cram everything together helped.
One thing does need some thought before you get too far. If you are planning on doing it largely without a plan, you'll want to use benchwork that adapts well to changes. L-girder fits, but wood in general will be better than big slabs of foam, because you can move things around and reset them more easily than all the special carving for both roadbed and scenery that occurs on foam.
Finally, plan a robust bus for electricity. Whether DC or DCC, better to have extra capacity built in to handle the additions that come later than having to redo power distribution.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I would say building a 3 level layout without any track plan would be a very bad idea. A 4x8 layout, go for the gusto, a really big multilevel, not so much.
Having said that there are lots of degrees of detail in what a "trackplan" is. Do you need to know the location of every switch and joint in every piece of track from the beginning? No. Would it be a good idea to know here your switching areas are going to be located so you don't end up with three switching areas stacked one above the other and all the operators in one place fighting for a view? Yes.
I would at least plan where the sidings, yards and switching areas are going to be. From that you can get an idea where the operators will be and plan the layout to minimize the operators elbowing each other. Having a rugby scrum in the middle of an operating session can be very distracting. You can also get an idea of what the operation would resemble, at least knowing which trains will work where and what they might block while doing it.
Once you get the basic design down so you know where you are going, you can then do the detail design as you build. That's basically what I do. I know generally where the stations, sidings and yards will be. I photocopy switches and cut out the paper templats, I then arrange them on the benchwork to plan where I want switches, industries etc. I use chalk to mark track centers so if I want to change something its not too hard. When I get something I like, I mark the centerlines and switch locations in pencil, then build it.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Normally I wouldn't recommend it, especially if you are a beginner. I have build two sizable layouts, one 16x19' in a garage, and one 14x25' in a basement, so I had a good idea what I could get away with in my current space, so I began building my benchwork in my 10x18.4' room before completing my track plan, which I began drawing out while I was building. I knew roughly what I was going to build and what would fit there and it did fit - a twice around the wall layout with a 11 track staging yard under a main yard which is on a 30-inch wide by 18' long area.
So if you've got good spacial ability and know what can fit in a given area, and can rough things out, then sure, you can do it. Really it's up to you and what you can get away with. It's better to draw things out to scale, at least partially if you are worried about what can fit, but your the one who is going to be stuck with building it so you have to deal with the consequences if it does or doesn't fit.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I like doodling trackplans and offering comments on plans that are posted here, but I do not think that a detailed plan is necessary.
However, I recommend having a good idea of what will fit in a given space, like turnouts, crossovers, and curves; so good planning software might help with that if a person has little other experience.
Also, planning "on the fly" is much easier when your layout is on table top benchwork. Layouts that would require cookie cutter benchwork take a bit more planning before you cut the subroadbed, of course.
- Douglas
Building without a track plan is a perfectly workable way to do it. You just have to go about things a bit different in the process to accomidate the fact that you will be removing and changing things constantly during construction. As long as you are in the mindset that you may have to make a lot of frequent changes as you build, there is no reason you need a set track plan before you start, or at all. Frankly, I never consider any of my track plans to be set in stone.
Track plan? What's that? I may doodle around with a track planing program with some ideas but,in the end its "lay and move around" track planing until I find what I like and then I spike it or glue the track in place..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Ok, I'm going out on a limb here. I have built four layouts without a 'trackplan' as such and I am very happy with the results. They all progressed from a simple 4 x 7 1/2 foot layout into what they are today. They all have progressed nicely without a trackplan.
But... do I recommend anyone else doing that? I don't believe that many of today's modelers can do that or would want to. I am 75 years old and have been designing layouts and modifying them since 1970. Yes, you can do it but be prepared to make changes as you go.
Roger Hensley= ECI Railroad - http://madisonrails.railfan.net/eci/eci_new.html == Railroads of Madison County - http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ =
JUst wanted to get some opinions from everyone on your thoughts about building your benchwork without really having a trackplan ?
I know I want to have some switching , run passenger trains , industry and so forth.
I have a 9mtr long X 6mtr wide area to work with , HO scale.
I want to have a 3 level around the walls shelf layout, no-lix, But for the life of me I cant come up with a trackplan that I am happy with. Ive been trying to design one for 3 years
Are you ever really happy with a trackplan?
Would it be very daring and courageous to build the benchwork and sort of "wing it" laying track ?
Could I just lay the track out any which way an see if I get satisfied with it that way.?
What are the pros and cons of doing it this way ?
Thank you all wise ones
Tom from
Down Under