I'd certainly think it possible: in Ian Wilson's excellent series of books on CNR branchlines in southern Ontario, there are many examples of such, although most are from the time when traffic on the lines had started to wane and the need to use the sidings for passing trains was less frequent. It can certainly add operational interest (known by train crews as a headache. ).
I've included at least one such industry on my layout, and there'll be a couple more on the second level once I get that far. Mine is an egg grading station, and it's actually on the main line (the white structure in the foreground). Trains, usually passenger trains, will load eggs into an express car during a station stop. There are no cars left here otherwise, though.
Wayne
That's a very common prototype practice. One of the roads where I worked had a soda ash transload and a fish food factory both on the same double ended siding. Another was one business, but had corn syrup on one end and boxcars on the other. The train crews loved double ended sidings as they provide flexibility in moving cars: IE, push outbounds through and pick them up on the way home. I had several industries set up this way on my old layout and will have several on my new one.
There are certainly many prototype examples of multiple industries served by the same double-ended SPUR. Note that having such industries negates the track's utility as a PASSING SIDING. You can use the track for a run-around while switching, and to spot cars for customers. Unless it's a very unusual situation, however, a railroad will not consider such a track for trains needing to meet or pass one another.
In the example Wayne gave above, note how the practice of using former sidings for car storage, or other use which partially blocks the track, would create a difficult and/or unsafe condition if the siding would require regular use for meets or passing. If traffic dwindled, a relative few sidings would most likely be kept clear for meets or passes unless such occurrences were to be nearly eliminated (e.g. the branch become a one train a day operation).
Rob Spangler
I have seen situations where multiple industries are served by what looks like a passing siding, but is actually operated more like the rail equivalent of a frontage road so that the main is not fouled while the crews do their work. (Am I making myself clear?)
Dave Nelson
One type of industry located on what may also serve as a passing siding are the seasonal industries. Xmas trees and nursery stock are good examples. The same applies to industries where shipping is not steady, but is semi-regular, like a stock pen.
In fact, for loading stock, it's very handy to have a double-ended track. There's pressure to get the train loaded and rolling quickly, because of the limit on hours that livestock can be confined en route without stopping to water them. Some stock trains laod at multiple pens, so being able to just swing in, load, and continue to the next stock pen is very handy.
Then there are special loads, like high and wides, that may be going to a destination that is offline. Get the load to the closest spot, then unload it. One famous example of that was how the Jumbo got to the TRINITY test site in New Mexico, discussed in this thread: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/13/t/240122.aspx
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
My passing siding also serves as access to my yard and trans-loading / team track area, and a short branch line, and as a run-around for switching ops.
Mike
My You Tube
I don't think it's a stupid question.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
On the prototype, a passing siding is distinct from an industry spur. Modelers excell at selective compression, though, so we have the option of using it for both. A train crew would not want to move and then re-spot a freight car that was set out to the industry. However, if that industry was located toward one end of the siding, a short train may be able to head in or back into the open area of the siding (without moving the cars at the industry) to clear the main for an oncoming train to pass.
Bill
dknelson I have seen situations where multiple industries are served by what looks like a passing siding, but is actually operated more like the rail equivalent of a frontage road so that the main is not fouled while the crews do their work. (Am I making myself clear?) Dave Nelson
Dave,
Not quite, but another 1/2 car length should do it.
A short line in my area uses an old siding as a storage track, and another old siding had one end removed to become a spur track for sand operations. The actual now Mid-line passing siding? Well, that started out as double track main line, then was turned into a very long 7 mile passing siding/storage track combo by Conrail, then the middle portion (between two switches/turnouts) torn out by the new shortline owner, creating an approx. 2 mile long passing siding, then a 1-1/2 mile long double ended storage/switching lead. Then that customer (switching lead area) left, so now just storage.
The fun time, they had two run-through's (really run-through's - NS coal drags, on trackage rights), and a road freight on the line. One run-through was holding the mid-line passing siding WB, the EB run-through train struck a vehicle in a grade crossing 15 miles west of the siding, (Stuck there for 3-1/2 hours for investigation. The driver? Claimed she didn't see, or hear, the big train moving a whopping 15 MPH through town, blowing it's horn for the tightly packed 4 crossings in 4 blocks. She was struck in the third of four.... And was treated at scene and released. Oh yeah, did I also mention, she is a local police officer? ), by the time they made it to the siding both run-through crews outlawed (as neither could make the next terminal point, not another siding long enough for them, nor enough time left to make the terminal points.). The EB road train? He outlawed on the main, parked just west of said now full passing siding. (They kept going, working the trailing point industries to that point, as they could not run around the train to go back to the yard, and not really anywhere to park that has good access for a crew van, save for a few locations. So, they figured they might as well do all they could, then hopefully the run-through would have a new crew shortly. Didn't work like they had hoped, as they outlawed right as the run-through's crew van arrived.... Oops.) So, in the span of 3 miles, 3 crews outlawed and left stranded 3 trains... (EB trains had made it about 50 miles, approx. 80 for the WB.) On a single track line. That was a mess.
That was the one time they wished Conrail hadn't torn up the second track, and that they had wished they still had that 7 mile long siding....
But the point, sure, use that old double-ended passing siding for storage/industries... Just hope nothing goes way wrong and creates a huge mess. Things go to plan, it should cause no issues, but, MR. Murphy may just show up on occasion.
So, yes, sometimes the prototype boys and girls do use double-ended sidings for storage/industries. So, yes, it is prototypical to do it on our layouts. And yes, sometimes that can cause headaches to operating crews.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
In my 9 1/2 years I never seen 2 industries on a single double ended siding.I have seen truck dumps that was doubled ended as well as some small loadouts-the actual mine was on the other side of the hill.
However.
I've seen photos of double ended industrial sidings that was taken in the 20/30s..Interesting concept.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Beach BillOn the prototype, a passing siding is distinct from an industry spur. Modelers excell at selective compression, though, so we have the option of using it for both.
I wouldn’t recommend that for the same reasons that it doesn't really happen: moving a spotted car before using the siding and then replacing the car would be tedious on the model and often impossible on the real railroad.
We sometimes forget that in real life, boxcars and reefers (among others) take time to load and unload. While in the process of loading or unloading, the items inside are unsecured and will be damaged if the car is moved.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cuyama Beach Bill On the prototype, a passing siding is distinct from an industry spur. Modelers excell at selective compression, though, so we have the option of using it for both. I wouldn’t recommend that for the same reasons that it doesn't really happen: moving a spotted car before using the siding and then replacing the car would be tedious on the model and often impossible on the real railroad. We sometimes forget that in real life, boxcars and reefers (among others) take time to load and unload. While in the process of loading or unloading, the items inside are unsecured and will be damaged if the car is moved.
Beach Bill On the prototype, a passing siding is distinct from an industry spur. Modelers excell at selective compression, though, so we have the option of using it for both.
Yeah, I'm with Byron (cuyama) on this one.
A passing siding has a specific purpose - passing trains. It doesn't work too well if there's something parked on it.
(And yes, sometimes real railroads will store cars on a passing siding, but modellers might end up only having one or two actual passing sidings on their layout, while a real railroad will have at least a dozen between the start and end of a line, spaced every 10 miles or so.)
An industrial "spur" could actually be single or double ended, and could serve more than one customer, and that's what we're talking about here.
But a customer spur (with one or more users) and a passing siding can't really be operationally combined. The end result will just be not being able to pass there.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
Back in the day, at least in the Upper Midwest, there was a distinction between a "passing siding" and a "house track". A passing siding was to be used for meets and passes of trains, and was not to be otherwise occupied or fouled without the specific permission of the dispatcher. A house track was usually double ended, and often was routed around the back side of the depot. Industries like grain elevators, feed mills, oil or other fuel dealers, or loading platforms might be located directly next to the house track, or a portion of the house track could be used as a "team track" for direct transfer to or from horse-drawn wagons or trucks, all without special permission from the dispatcher.
cv_acr(And yes, sometimes real railroads will store cars on a passing siding, but modellers might end up only having one or two actual passing sidings on their layout, while a real railroad will have at least a dozen between the start and end of a line, spaced every 10 miles or so.)
Chris,
On the old ACR, they've definitely taken that to heart. When the wife and I rode to Hearst a few years back in the depths of the Great Recession, they sidings were full of log, pulpwood and pole racks, among other rolling stock. Obviously, traffic over the line isn't what it used to be, but it's also atypical -- most RRs don't run that way or at least try to avoid it for obvious operational flexibility.
It does bring to mind an interesting concept for a layout oriented more toward railfanning than what most of us consider operations. The sidings can be mostly filled with cars built by the owner, with the occassional train passing through while the builder is hard at work filling those sidings at the workbench underneath.
KK Bridge has a very good point about not mixing up the concepts of passing siding and house track. Usually, they are entirely different species although they look the same in many ways. But I also think it's one of those rules that doesn't get hurt much by being broken from time to time, so long as it's not all the time. And having a siding do both by switching back and forth is a means of selective compression on the layout, even if not so often the case in 1:1.
mlehman Chris, On the old ACR, they've definitely taken that to heart. When the wife and I rode to Hearst a few years back in the depths of the Great Recession, they sidings were full of log, pulpwood and pole racks, among other rolling stock. Obviously, traffic over the line isn't what it used to be, but it's also atypical -- most RRs don't run that way or at least try to avoid it for obvious operational flexibility.
That's for sure.
The ACR today only sees one daily freight in each direction (which seems to average 10-20 cars the few times I've seen it) in addition to the regular passenger train (one direction/day only) and the Agawa Canyon Tour train (both directions daily, but only running as far as Canyon.) And the freights seem to be scheduled so as to try not to interfere with the tour train so that also minimizes meets as well.
And many sidings have been removed completely. There's a lot in my 1980s era timetables that don't exist anymore, and half of the ones that still do are single ended by removing the switch at one end. Others are downgraded over the years to house tracks.
They seem to largely operate the railroad by actually giving the trains work clearances and "protect against" orders. The work clearance gives the train the ability to back up, which is how we got into a siding south of Hawk Junction to meet a short northbound freight while I was riding the southbound regular train in fall 2013.
With a double ended spur (are we really talking about a passing siding?) why would the railroad have to move a car?
You know, the double ended part allows the other industry to be switched from the other side.......
Sure, that would have to be planned for, but I think that's the goal of the double ended spur, to be able to switch it from either side.
Edit: Nevermind, I think we are talking about locating an industry on a track that is also used for trains to pass. Yes, that would be awkward.
- Douglas
You can have double ended spurs and sidings on a railroad, but a passing siding is not one of these. Passing sidings are either out of town or if they must be in town such as at a division point, they will be elevated, or the roads will be elevated, or both.
Passing sidings accomodate 100+ car trains laid up for some time while waithing for another train to pass them. You cannot block city or even county road with a passing siding. Think of a pssing siding as part of the MAIN LINE, which of course it is. It is signaled and operated by the central office, an industrial siding is not. A train may do whatever it wants there so long as it does not obstruct the mane lion.
So they are two different beasts. Of course on a model railroad you may have to combine them sut to save space.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
BroadwayLionOf course on a model railroad you may have to combine them sut to save space.
I wish people would stop giving this very poor advice in this thread. If one combines the two, it results in a either a passing siding that's unusable because it is blocked or an industrial siding that's unrealistic because it is always being disturbed.
There is nearly always room for both functions in any model railroad. They can be parallel, and overlapped, using very little space.
Since the Original Poster never showed us his plan, it's impossible to give him pertinent advice.
If I had a narrow space to deal with, and wanted to have both a passing siding and a double-ended track to serve multiple industries, I would run the main line down the center of the space, and place the house (industrial) track to the back of the scene, using building flats or low-relief structures to represent the industries. Then I would put the passing track on the aisle (outside) portion of the scene. The house track, main line, and passing track could all run parallel to one another, and take up a total width of about 10 inches in HO scale.
KK BridgeThe house track, main line, and passing track could all run parallel to one another, and take up a total width of about 10 inches in HO scale.
To illustrate how do-able that is, here's a location on my layout with a main, passing siding, company set-out track, industry spur, and building flats. Benchwork is 12" deep. Remove one track and you could get by with 10".
cuyamacuyama wrote the following post 11 hours ago: BroadwayLion Of course on a model railroad you may have to combine them sut to save space. I wish people would stop giving this very poor advice in this thread. If one combines the two, it results in a either a passing siding that's unusable because it is blocked or an industrial siding that's unrealistic because it is always being disturbed.
Since the prototype does it for a variety of reasons (as the ACR was discussed as an extreme example) -- maybe they don't feel obligated to follow the rigid interepretations that model railroaders sometime impose on themselves? -- to suggest a hard and fast rule about it for model design and operations seems overly rigid.
Except for rare occassions, the typically sized layout would not have more than one or two siding with this dual use at a time. I don't believe anyone suggested creatuing a layout based on such a concept. Likewise, we should remember the changes wrought by time. Most of those ACR sidings formerly hosted more active tgraffic
mlehman-- to suggest a hard and fast rule about it for model design and operations seems overly rigid.
Indeed Mike..All things railroad will nip you in the end because railroads do what the must to get the job done.A obsolete passing siding could become a transload track with or without a rail owned (contractor operated) distribution center.
Their thoughts would be simple-why build a new siding when we can used a old passing siding that we never used? A paved area for trucks and bingo you can now efficiently unload tank cars and covered hoppers for off line customers.The results of the savings of using that passing siding instead of building a new siding would be seen in the bottom line..
As far as operation railroaders must abide by very ridged rules from the company and the Feds.Grant it back in the day old head conductors knew what rules could be bent and those that can't..Try that today and you will be taken out of service and get street time or fired.That doesn't mean we must be that ridged in our operations though..
I agree with Cuyama 100%. The use of the term "passing siding" inferrs that it will be used for two trains to pass, and frequently, that is its primary purpose. No, it should not also be used as a industrial spur.
If it is "abanoned passing siding" or a seldom used passing siding, then it would be a spur and the assumption for how it is used changes so the answer may change.
The best advice to give the OP is, that if he wants a passing siding and industries along the same linear footage of benchwork, then he will need to plan for the tracks to be three deep.
mlehmanSince the prototype does it for a variety of reasons (as the ACR was discussed
No, the prototype does not do it. The ACR situation was disused sidings as long-term storage, not the Original Poster's single combined siding/active industry track.
BRAKIEA obsolete passing siding could become a transload track
Again, not the Original Poster's question. He mentioned specifically a single track being used as both an active passing siding and an active industry siding at the same time. [By the way, every transload facility I've seen has been set away from the running track a greater distance than a former passing siding would have been to allow for safe loading and unloading of commodities.]
Why anyone would want to confuse a poster with comments and examples that are not answers to his question is always puzzling to me.
Now that all of the experts have chimes in - I have to agree that most passing sidings are kept clear for meets between trains. However, even back in the old days, there were passing sidings that has industries on them. The ETT clearly stated which ones were affected, and noted that the siding may not be available. Some railroads handled this with a 'Blocked Siding Order'. I am looking at a couple of old Milw ETT's from the 50's. For some stations they note that the house track is considered the passing siding, but may be occupied. I guess that is what the 'Blocked Siding Order' is used for.
Myself, I try to keep the passing siding clear on my layout...
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Doc Wayne
Not wishing to hijack this thread (sorry) But in your picture, the grain elevator, who is the manufacturer? (assuming it's not scratchbuilt)
I love it.
Thanks
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
cuyamaWhy anyone would want to confuse a poster with comments and examples that are not answers to his question is always puzzling to me.
If the argument here is about semantics, I happen to agree with you. A passing siding is a passing siding. Simple enough.
But if we want to discuss what happens in the real world, well, best I can say at this point is that labels are interchangeable. When something changes, change the label if the old one doesn't apply. That what the RR does, as Jim noted, one way is in the ETT notes.
Then their is the layout. I know the hobby as a whole tends to obsess about the prototype because...well, it's stylish. I do it myself. But in the end, it's still a model RR layout. Since this was not posted in the Prototype Forum, but in the Layouts Forum, I think a discussion of what model RRers do is relevant. For whatever reason - space, time, money, etc - it's not always possible to follow strictly prototypical practices. You do your best -- and there is no shame in fudging things here and there if we must. I always say it's important to know the rules well if you intend to break them. So your words of wisdom are still apt, just not the only relevant POV on the matter.