The local modular club that I belong to used steel studs and foam tops when building their current layout. BIG MISTAKE! Might be better on a permanent home layout but it really sucks for durability of a portable one.
Yup, what they said is exactly why I'm going with ripped plywood. I must say, I did get enough nice and straight stick wood at Lowes to build my previous around the spare room layout, but that was over several trips with the stock replenished so i could pick out only the good stuff. And this is going to be a MUCH larger layout.
At the saem time, both HD and Lowes now have pretty poor quality plywood, too. There are no small yards around me any more, there ARE two companies that sell quality 15 ply Baltic Birch plywood, but they only wholesale it, not retail. I wanted to use the better quality ply so every joint wouldn't need a piece of wood cut to be a nailer, looks like that will likely be out and I'll have to make do with regular plywood and cut up plenty of corner pieces. I guess there is always steel studs...
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Randy, makes total sense. It's been a while since I needed lumber but the last time I needed some I went to three different lowes stores and two home depots to find the amount of decent boards I needed. I've never thought about cutting down plywood like that. I also like the link to the diy panel saw! Thanks!
dekemd Randy, just out of curiosity, why use ripped ply for the frame over stick lumber?
Randy, just out of curiosity, why use ripped ply for the frame over stick lumber?
I am not Randy, but the reason is greater dimensional stability. Because ply is made with thin layers that are laid with the grain at 90 degrees to each other, it cancels the movement problems that you get across the grain with dimensional lumber. Simply put, ply does not expand and contract like solid wood does. It also will not have the cupping problems that you get with solid lumber.
I've built 2 layouts on foam. Neither was really objectionable - the first, witht he foam glued on top of open grid with WS foam roadbed, was quieter than the last, which has 2 layers of foam and plywood under it, with cork roadbed. I don;t find the noise level of foam objectionable, but its nowhere near as quiet as a higher density base material like plywood or MDF
As for OSB - I just don't think that it is structural enough - I know, now a dozen people will say they built their layouts 10 years ago and have no sags, etc.
This was neve rmeant to be the end all be all study of roadbed and subroadbed materials - I was already down to either using foam for a third time, going back to traditional plywood (and the framing I WILL be making from ripped plywood, not stick lumber), or MDF. ANd the only real reason the MDF came up was because I was picking up a part sheet of plywood for somethign and I saw a part sheet of it in an adjoinign bin and when I tapped on it I didn't even hear my hand hitting it. The part sheet was cheap so I grabbed one to try.
Since I have it - I figured I'll build a a micro layout on the piece of MDF. Stay tuned.
No mention of foam board at all in this discussion? My last layout was all foam on shelf brackets. The base, subroadbed, roadbed, scenery contours, everything. All track sat directly on foam of varying thickness. From 5 feet out, you have to hit the horn to be able tell there is a train running. At operating distances, you cant hear wheels over the prime mover sounds. All track is ballasted, I don't use screws or nails and glue is all either PL300 or WS Scenic Cement.
How about sound as follows:
Homasote on nominal half inch OSB?
Cork on nominal half inch OSB?
Or did I miss it it?
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I will say that if I were to go with laying my own track (ties and spiking rail to them) Homasote really holds spikes and track nails well.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
carl425 rrinker So, I guess at this point my best choice is to use plywood for the under support Before you declare a winner, try a piece of 1-by pine.
rrinker So, I guess at this point my best choice is to use plywood for the under support
Before you declare a winner, try a piece of 1-by pine.
I'll second this. I've used homasote laminated to 1x pine with cork roadbed on top for mainline track; industrial and yard trackage directly on the homasote. No noise, echoes, reverberation that I can detect. And I find the pine easier to work with than plywood.
Randy,
I have Homasote over plywood (screwed but not glued) and Homabed on the Homasote for the main line (secured with brads, not adhesive). Track is W/S flex spiked (not nailed) into the Homabed or Homasote. No ballast yet. Very quiet (difficult to imagine it would be any quieter with a cork roadbed on top of the Homasote or Homabed but anything is possible).
Dante
I am the "other guy" making Homasote roadbed mentioned above (I am still chuckling over that one). Tom, you bring one of the points that I think gets missed in all this. One of the reasons that I like Homasote as a modeler (which led me into manufacturing, but that is another story) is the density. I used the Woodland Scenics foam at the start of my last layout and stopped pretty quickly. I found that it just did not give enough support to the trains. If you inadvertantly pressed on the track you would get a vertical kink that was very hard to remove. When you ballast you would be putting a rigid shell over a flexible base and that has never seemed like a good combination for track support. While I understand that camper tape and other materials can give good sound insulation, I question their effectiveness in supporting the trains and track over the long term. Usually we do everything possible to make our benchwork rigid and then we put our track on a low density flexible surface? That seems contrary to what we want for reliable operation. I know Homasote is not perfect but it seems to have a good balance between attenuating the sound and supporting the trains, especially if you have a stable of Bowser steam locomotives :-) One other advantage to Homasote that I can bring as a manufacturer (or anyone else who has the tools and wants to) is scale appearance which other materials do not have. I have in my line turnout pads, transition ramps, different thicknesses of roadbed, etc which allows a modeler to easily make scale sized roadbed to match just about any situation. I do not mention this to bring attention to my products but to point out that there is more to roadbed than just sound and support. Some of the other things mentioned here do one thing or another better but I think Homasote has the best combination of all three.
Steve Cox
Cascade Rail Supply
cascaderailsupply.com
I will also add - I am doing this as much to do SOMETHING layout related until I can start building as anything. I already know that track directly on the plywood would not suit me, too noisy. But cork on plywood is fine, I'm not trying to obtain ultimate quiet at the expense of insanely complex construction methods. Not exactly sure what the cutoff point is, but putting an extra layer of roadbed on isn't too bad. Ripping hundreds of feet of splines is probably beyond what I'm willing to do, even if it would turn out quieter than what I've tried so far, considering I don;t have a table saw and don't anticipate purchasing one.
I'd wager it wouldn't stick well to wood/homasote using just the existing adhesive - it's meant to stick to a nice smooth metal surface. Laid down with caulk or something, I doubt it would peel off.
Interesting that the camper tape "let loose" on the N scale layout. I wonder if the builder used the tape's adhesive as his only adhesive, or if he used additional adhesive. It's also interesting that this occurred with unballasted track. I wonder whether ballast and the adhesive that holds it, would have helped. I'm also curious whether the camper tape would flex too much under the weight of Bowser HO steam locos.
I'm planning to expand soon, so the topic interests me. So far, the yard I've built is strictly homasote over plywood, and I'm wondering whether the camper tape would be advisable when I start the main line. For a long time, I had planned to use the camper tape, but now I'm having second thoughts.
Tom
I saw the camper tape once, in a mom & pop hardware store, so I examined it. Looked and felt pretty much like WS foam roadbed, only thicker and with adhesive on one side. I'd expect it to work fairly well, but then I am pretty convinced that it's the relative density of the materials at the interface that controls the noise, so a softer material on top of a more solid material will be quieter than a medium density material on top of another medium density material. As such, plywood - topper tape - cork should be another quiet option.
Randy, bar none, the quietest place on each of my three layouts so far has been the stretch over any bridges...doesn't matter the type, commercial, hand-made, plastic or timber....my trains go dead quiet on them.
I found spline roadbed of MDF to be fairly quiet in some places, but quite rumbly in others. Spinning drivers made the rumble even louder, and that was too often the case on my overloaded Niagara on my 3.3% grades.
I used latex caulk to fix the ties directly to the splines, and then ballasted with fine beach sand and yellow glue. Generally, I quite liked the results and enjoyed the decoders' sounds a lot that way.
In my latest build, I used Eco-Cork, a rubbery cork underlay sold in 20' rolls at Home Depot. I cut roughly 1" wide strips and then kerfed them to get a curve. The tracks are amazingly quiet on the Eco-Cork. Ballasting raises the noise level somewhat, as we would expect.
I know of a N Scale layout (fairly Large one) and the owner used the camper tape.
I looked and seemed to work well and the track went down rather quickly.
But in a year or two the camper tape let lose and the ownere of the layout never spent the time to redo the area so it never worked very well - had he ballasted the area it might have been different.
Using the latex caulk seems to be a lot better way to go - one doesn't have that extra thickness to the camper tape raising the track up.
But to each his own. I am into HO and use the Homasote for all of my roadbed/subroadbed and if I want the track raised up will use HO or N Scale cork from Midwest.
Never had a problem and the excuse that the cork breaks down is also not something one has to worry about once the track is ballasted as the glue hold everything together.
I still have cork from the 1979 that is still usable.
BOB H - Clarion, Pa
I have never actually used camper tape in roadbed construction, but there was an article about it in one of Kalmbach's special publications a few years ago. Camper tape is the stuff they use to seal the gap between a pickup truck and a camper top that sits over the bed. The article said the best sound-deadening results came from using it in combination with Homasote or cork. The adhesive was latex caulk.
Has anybody else tried this, or can anybody identify the source of the article?
Certainly, it is the individual’s preference for what is tolerable, that needs to win out when it comes to noise. However, for my own preference, the standard track laying practices were good enough for me.
rrinkerSo, I guess at this point my best choice is to use plywood for the under support
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
That's "the other guy" i was talking about. The owner is so fast to respond that he PMd me with the name before anyone else replied to this thread I would definitely order from him, the pieces of Homabed I have are from the sample kit and it took almost a year to get that from when I ordered it. When the package came I wasn;t even sure what it was, it had been so long that I totally forgot I even ordered it. That definitely won't do when I'm ready to start building.
Everyone says ballast makes it louder - i did not experience that on my previous layout. I had two stretches ballasted, one using white glue, the other using matte medium (because everyone says matte medium is quieter). As I ran a train around the room, it did not get any louder hitting the ballasted sections, nor was there any difference between the glue section and the matte medium section. Maybe because I dilute my glue with alcohol, and I noticed the leftovers in a cup dry kinda of rubbery instead of like the hard crackle you peel off the bottle of glue. Water/soap dilution has never worked for me, the water is too hard here, it just made a hard shell the broke away. Using alcohol, it all soaks in exactly as it should, and doing it Cody Grivno's way, I have not had any problems with WS ballast floating away on me, it stays put.
Also all interfaces between materials are attached with caulk, I do not use nails for anything, nor will I again. It's too fast and easy to use caulk, plus it adds some extra insulation between layers.
I will also note that for the test, the plywood and MDF pieces were suspended between two edges of my bar (solid surface, not padded), leaving an almost full 4 foot space supported only by the edges - prime for creating a resonating surface, so this should have been worst case.
I am not seeking absolute silence - outside of the track directly on the wood with no roadbed at all, the overhwmling sound was the motor and gears in the locos I was running back and forth, easily heard over any rumble in the surface, and I barely even felt any vibration running at prototypical speeds. Once loco was reltively heavy, an Atlas/Roco S2. The other was very light, but super quite, a remotoroed Athearn BB, much quieter than the Roco motor, but on the plain wood more prone to resonate the body shell. I also pushed a couple of cars back and forth, that was where I noticed the biggest difference between homabed and cork on the plywood.
Either is quieter than the foam I used before. The quietest of the two layouts I made with foam though, was the one with the foam just glued on top of open grid benchwork. Again withthe open cells almost tailor-made to be resonating boxes, but operation was quite (I used WS foam roadbed on that one). Cork on foam with plywood under it was a little louder, though not objectionable. Cork on plywood is probably louder than either of the foam layouts, anything on MDF is quieter, and the homabed on plywood was the quietest outside of stacking homabed and cork. Differeing material densities is my theory, this blocks sound as it psses through the density change. I did try flipping it, homabed on cork, didn't seem to be any different.
There is much more to the 'sound' issue that what you ran with your tests. Ballasting the track will raise the sound level! Using white glue results in more sound that using Matte Medium. I think that the fact that Matte Medium dries to a 'rubber' consistancy is why there is less sound traansmitted. Even using Matte Medium, if the ballast touches the MDF or the Plywood - The sound vibration is transmitted to the sheet material surface.
Now, on to Homabed. The owner of the company has been fighting illness issues and getting the stuff has been a real issue. I have found a new source for milled/sanded Homasote roadbed - Cascade Rail Supply.
http://cascaderailsupply.com/pages/frontpage
They have roadbed that matches cork roadbed in height(18"), and also 'branchline' roadbed that is 12" high. It also is available in 45 degree and 30 degree beveled stock. It runs about 66 cent/ft.
I have almost an entire box of cork, so I have been using it for the staging tracks, The mainline will laid on the 18" 30 degree bevel roadbed, with the 12" for the yards/sidings. I should be ordering some of this stuff in the next week and I will update you on what I think of it. The owner is very fast to reply to emails.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Randy
Thank you for taking the time to do this research. Great information.
I am guessing that the above tests were done without ballast. Is that correct? If so, do you plan on doing any more testing with ballast installed?
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
My mainline is laid on cork on ceiling tile on plywood, the rest is on the ceiling tile on ply. Doesn't sound too bad to me.
Dean
30 years 1:1 Canadian Pacific.....now switching in HO
Yes, actually did something train related. The other night I picked up a 2x4 piece of 3.4" plywood (actually 23/32" because that's the way they do it these days). My other surface was the 3.4" fairly heavy MDF - I checked while I was getting the plywood and they have two different products both sold as MDF, one is heavy and dense like what I have, the other is much lighter and more flexible (also in a 3/4" thickness). Anyway, on to results (no sound meter measurements, just my own ears)
On MDF - cork or homabed, pretty much identical. Cork on top of homabed, quietest option on MDF> Track right on MDF - noisy.
On plywood: homabed MUCH quieter than cork. Cork on homabed - pretty much absolute silence except the motor and gears in the loco. Track right on plywood - forget it.
By roadbed:
No roadbed, track directly on surface - not acceptable either way
Cork - on MDF, acceptable, medium level of noise. On plywood, borderline not acceptable. Cork on MDF quieter than cork on plywood.
Homabed - on MDF, acceptable, medium level of noise. On plywood, very acceptable, extremely quiet
Cork on homabed - on MDF, very acceptable, hardly any noise. On plywood - best option so far, extremely quiet.
i HAD a piece of WS foam to compare with as well, but it got lost in the move (meaning it's probably smashed up between some boxes).
So, I guess at this point my best choice is to use plywood for the under support, use a layer of homasote or pre-cut homabed (or that other guy who just started making a similar product) as subroadbed, and then cork on top. At least for the main line, this would yield a better ballast profile as a bonus. And with caulk holding this all together - no nails to transmit sounds between the materials - it should be insanely quiet.