mobilman44 Hi, Over the years I've found another factor (besides roadbed) that affects the noise level. Basically it comes down to the benchwork - "tabletop" and underneath supports. To better explain that, consider these extremes........ - A 4x8 sheet of 1/4 inch ply supported by 1x4s around the edge and one in the middle. This is kind of like a "drumhead" and seems to amplify sound. - On the other end, consider a 4x8 sheet of 3/4 multi layer ply supported by 1x4s in an 18 inch gridwork pattern. My point is that there are a lot of factors promoting the sound level, and while roadbed is (I think) the biggest factor, benchwork and the layout being enclosed in a room or in an open basement, quality of locos, types of wheelsets, quality of trackwork also come into play. ENJOY!
Hi,
Over the years I've found another factor (besides roadbed) that affects the noise level. Basically it comes down to the benchwork - "tabletop" and underneath supports. To better explain that, consider these extremes........
- A 4x8 sheet of 1/4 inch ply supported by 1x4s around the edge and one in the middle. This is kind of like a "drumhead" and seems to amplify sound.
- On the other end, consider a 4x8 sheet of 3/4 multi layer ply supported by 1x4s in an 18 inch gridwork pattern.
My point is that there are a lot of factors promoting the sound level, and while roadbed is (I think) the biggest factor, benchwork and the layout being enclosed in a room or in an open basement, quality of locos, types of wheelsets, quality of trackwork also come into play.
ENJOY!
I have read on several occasions that the drumming noise that is caused by vibration can be reduced by using heftier materials for construction. Its harder for the liittle trains to cause much vibration in heavier benchwork.
The trend in layout construction has been to lighten the benchwork and to increase the spacing of the supports to the max. Perhaps more vibration and drumming is a consequence.
Perhaps experiments could be done where similar materials are used, but heavier and more frequent supports constructed. Say, benchwork that is made from 3/4 ply on top of 2x4 joists at 12 inches apart compared to 1/2 inch ply with 1x4 joists spaced 24 inches apart.
- Douglas
My layout is built on a 2x4 framework with 1/2" plywood as the surface. My track nailed onto Woodland Scenics foam roadbed. As such, running trains was fairly quiet, no real noise objections. When I laid ballast (Woodland Scenics), it actually seemed to dampen what noise there was even more. But, when I glued the track down with a matte medium/water mix, the noise level noticeably increased. I still have a portion of the layout with unglued ballast in a rather inaccessible area. The change in noise level is clearly obvious while the train is in that unglued area of ballast.
Rich
Alton Junction
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I've pretty much done as much as I'm going to with this. I will probbaly be going with the Homasote stuff (but from Cascade, since then I'll actually get what I order in a timely fashion, and I see now you can get switch pads to match specific turnouts) when I start the big layout. The little 2x4 switcher I'll just use the cork I have leftover from last layout.
As for ballast, on my previous layout, the non-ballasted part had a bit of a rumble as well as the sssssss of th emetal wheels. When it hit a ballasted part, the ruble stopped and it was just the wheel noise. It could be that because I dilute my white glue with alcohol instead of water (hard water here, even adding soap, it just floats on top of the ballast and never soaks in, even with pre-wetting the ballast. Use 70% isopropyl and it soaks right in like magic) it stays more 'rubbery' than even matte medium. That seems to be the case with leftovers in a cup after a ballasting session - when it finally dries, it's not that hard surface like you get if you just pour out a drop of Elmer's and let it harden.
It's been interesting, even if all I really did was drive a loco back and forth over a 3 foot piece of flex. At least trains moved on the track in my new place. It's going to be a long ways off until I start the big layout - have to finish the plan first, plus all the demo on the basement to make it ready.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
hardcoalcase You may want to consider making some additional noise comparisons after the track is ballasted. I recall reading that the WS foam was quieter than cork on installation, but after the ballast was added, there was no significant difference. The change was attributed to sound transmission through the hard white glue used to secure the ballast. Using matt medium, which stays more flexible, might make a difference. Jim
You may want to consider making some additional noise comparisons after the track is ballasted. I recall reading that the WS foam was quieter than cork on installation, but after the ballast was added, there was no significant difference. The change was attributed to sound transmission through the hard white glue used to secure the ballast. Using matt medium, which stays more flexible, might make a difference.
Jim
I believe this to be an important statement. I have dead quiet track on almost any track I lay that has a different density roadbed from what supports that roadbed, but as soon as I harden the ballast, things get noisy again. Only across bridges do my wheels go quiet on my layout. Otherwise.............
Interesting that another reply was added today - I was out driving around piking up some things so i stopped by the hobby shop and got a couple of pieces of WS foam, since I can;t find the piece I bought previously.
I've come to the conclusion that it depends on WHICH noise you want to deaden - Of cork, Homabed, and WS foam ALONE, on 3/4" plywood, for the two powered locos I was using, a rather heavy Atlas S2 (Roco made one) and a pretty light Athearn RTR EMD switcher, to my ear, the WS foam was quietest, homabed next, cork loudest. However, running some cars on the track instead, and the sounds of the wheels rolling on the rail were loudest with the WS foam, quietest with the cork.
I have a 2x4 sheet of that. It's HEAVY. Much heavier than a 2x4 piece of 3/4" plywood. I have considered using it as the subroadbed, since it's nice and dense.
Sort of pointless to continue my testing - there's a thread on MRH where an audio engineer is testing various roadbed/subroadbed combinations using precision equipment.
Randy,
I think the 'squishy' issue with the W/S roadbed happens when folks use track nails and push the track into the roadbed. With caulk, you should have no problem. The only issue with the W/S roadbed I have seen is that it cannot be 'sanded' very well to produce a nice taper down to an industry spur or to take off the rough 45 degree 'edge' - It sorta rips loose.
I too am waiting for the arrival of my Cascade Roadbed(it has shipped). I will be doing some testing real soon. I have ordered both solid and 'kerfed' 30 degree roadbed in the 18"(3/16 inch thick) material. I am pretty 'jazzed' about finding a new source for this material! I was planning on setting up the radial arm saw and the miter saw in the garage this week - We got 3-6" of snow last night. I spent this morning blowing out the driveway!
BTW, there is a denser version of MDF(HDF High Density Fiberboard??). You can tell when you pick up a sheet. We used 3/4" HDF for a club layout in the late 60's, it held up fine for the 10 years that the club lasted. It was really hard on table saw blades!
Jim Bernier
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Dynamat has added to their product lines / markets and has moved into the home construction and commercial industries with their sound deadening products. I would have to do some investigation on pricing and products available but they do offer for home construction what appears to rolls of product that can be applied in walls or for subfloors to eliminate noise transmission through walls or floors. How much will this increase the cost to put down track? Maybe another 1/3 to 1/2 above the price of roadbed, track, and ballast. I would think to get the best isolation with the track from the bench work would require the Dynamat to be cut wide enough that the track, roadbed, and ballast are all on top of the Dynamat material and that the scenery adjacent to the track roadbed overlaps up on top of the Dynamat material. Financials will limit the use of this material (or equivalent). Would this material be required under all of the track? I would think mainlines, passing sidings, and yards would be sufficient. Mainly anywhere a full train will run continuously at speed. Single ended sidings may not really require this type of treatment as the trains will most likely be moving slower and the number of cars in them will be limited. Depending on the bench work the noise of a track bed with Dynamat versus a track bed without might be very noticeable and may require some experimentation before final track installation. How much noise can an individual or club put up with and really how many people will say that the rail noise is extremely excessive? If an individual or club has adopted a 6' rule for a locomotive with sound for the prime mover then if you hear the train coming due to track noise (not a thumper) at 12' away and can localize the exact train that is making the noise then some type of sound deadening might be warranted but would it be worth it to tear up working track to add sound deadening material to the road bed?
sorry for the double-post. Had internet / router issues and I didn't think the first post actually went through.
Kevin
I too have thought / wondered about Dynamat too myself As I read the other thread on sound deadening. As you said originally Dynamat was used in automotive to deaden sounds in metal panels for audio installations. Now Dynamat has went into different markets and actually makes sheets that can be used in home to deaden sound transmittal in walls and floors and I was wondering about using these types of material. I would believe the only places you would really need this would be under the mainlines, yards, and passing sidings. Those places where full length trains running at speed would create some noise. Would it really be necessary for single ended sidings? There would be a difference as a train passed from a place with Dynamat to a stretch of track without, but if the trains will always be running slower than mainline speed would it be noticeable? This will really be a question based on financials and how much an individual can put up with the noise or how dead they want rail noise to be. I would think to really deaden the noise you would put down the dynamat in wider strips that would be wider than ballast of the track roadbed such that the track and roadbed are isolated from the benchwork completely. It would be interesting to find out if Pelle actually did use some kind of this type of material. There are different grades of this material too from extreme sound deadening to general deadening to keep panels from resonating and to help dampen road noise. i will need to do a little more research on the products and pricing.
ACY Several years ago, one of Kalmbach's publications carried an article about the sound deadening qualities of Camper Tape. It's made for sealing the contact points where a camper top rests on a pickup truck. You can buy it at Mobile home/R.V. supply stores. The author used it in combination with other roadbed materials such as plywood, foam, cork, and Homasote. As I recall, the best results were obtained by using this stuff over cork or Homasote. The concept has always fascinated me, but I've never actually tried it. I'm a bit concerned that the softness of the material might be too much to support heavy locos like Bowser steam locos. Tom
Several years ago, one of Kalmbach's publications carried an article about the sound deadening qualities of Camper Tape. It's made for sealing the contact points where a camper top rests on a pickup truck. You can buy it at Mobile home/R.V. supply stores. The author used it in combination with other roadbed materials such as plywood, foam, cork, and Homasote. As I recall, the best results were obtained by using this stuff over cork or Homasote. The concept has always fascinated me, but I've never actually tried it. I'm a bit concerned that the softness of the material might be too much to support heavy locos like Bowser steam locos.
Tom
People say that about the WS foam roadbed, that it's too squishy, but I had no problems, even running some heavy diecast locos over it - including a Bowser PRR T1. They key, it seems, is to mix densities of material, since just like light refracting at the surface of water, sound will change as it passes from material of one density into another. Two interfaces seems to be good, 3 even better. Back in the 40's/early 50's there was an even more ambitious test of mixed materials, part of the George Allen Tuxedo Junction series.
The sheet with the big flakes is called OSB, Oriented Strand Board..its used in sheathing so its usually water resistent. The tan stuff that creates fine dust when sawed is MDF..Medium Density Fiberboard...and its really heavy in 3/4 inch thickness...It has a very smooth surface which is great for painting. The yellowish stuff that's a bit coarser than MDF and creates normal sawdust is called Particle Board. Its used alot for put-together furniture where it has a laminate exterior.
Some of the names get swapped around by us common folk but those are the industry designations. Just wanted to clarify the terms.
Oh yea, I did try running on the flex track just sitting on the MDF - definitely louder than either roadbed material.
If you are looking for stuff to try, on a previous layout I wasn't exactly conducting experiments, but I did have a mix of roadbed and subroadbed materials including plywood, homosote, 1 by pine and cork roadbed. In test running I was amazed that no combination of materials made any less noise than track laid directly on 1 by pine.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
I guess it's pretty much the same stuff Pelle Soeberg used on his layout. But his is a LOT smaller than my plan. Not that quality 3/4" ply is exactly 'lightweight' either.
I did see he also used something like Dynamat which is usually used in car audio toi dampen vibrations - I might try a layer of that in the mix too. The actual stuff is not cheap, maybe some knockoff brand will work - it doesn;t have to dampen 2000 watts of subwoofer.
Randy:
I followed your previous experiments and I will be watching this thread too.
I know the stuff you are referring to. The Home Depot site refers to it as MDF or particle board but they are not very specific. I think that what you have is just a finer grade.
I know how heavy it is too. My older brother was offered about 40 - 4' x 8' x 1" sheets of the stuff for free if he came and got them. The stupid idiot actually accepted the offer even though he didn't have a clue what he would use it for. Guess who he recruited for free labour! That was 10 years ago. He still has about 30 sheets left.
As you say, the stuff seems to be very resilient. However, it will burn up saw blades like crazy because of the 'inclusions' in the mix like the glue that binds it together, and there is often more than a little bit of sand present too. I would also suggest pre-drilling for screws.
No, I won't help you to move the stuff into you house!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I'll be listening!
Have fun,
Richard
So, a long time ago, I posted about experimenting with different types of roadbed. It took a long time, but finally I started playing around with things. Part of the delay was that it took a year to get my sample kit from Homabed. Luckily there is a new supplier of an identical product that seems much more reliable on delivery.
I couldn;t find the piece of WS foam I picked up, oh so long ago - probably buried in a box somewhere in the mess that is the basement since moving. But the lefotver cork and the Homabed samples were easily located.
First test was with nothing attached - and I won;t be testing different methods of attachment, I will be using caulk again on this layout, and there is just no way a physical nail driven into the layer can be quieter than caulk which remains somewhat flexible even after it sets.
I used the power switch on the power pack, so locos were run at the exact same speed. I just used a couple of the locos that were in the box o' junk I bought - neither loco is 'junk' - one is an Atlas S-1, old run with horn hooks but a heavy die-cast loco with a decent motor and drive, very quiet. The other is a Blue Box EMD switcher that was remotored with a Sagami can motor. Rest of the drivetrain is stock. Witht he heavier Atlas loco, there was almost no difference in sound, cork to Homabed. With the lighter Athearn unit, it became evident that with cork, there is more resonance from the shell transmitted through to the wood - even without any form of secure attachment of the track and roadbed. Next, I rolled a car over the tracks. Homabed transmitted a more low frequency rumble, on the cork side it was the higher pitched 'singing' of the wheels that came through.
Next step is to find (or buy) another piece of WS foam and caulk all three down the way they would be in actual practice.
Base was a piece of - I don;t know what to call this stuff. It's 1/2" thick, the slot said MDF but it is far too heavy - this 2x4 panel is heavier and more dense than a 2x4 panel of 1/2" plywood. It reminds me of the particle board I used on an old shelf layout - where the 'particles' were mostly sawdust size, NOT the big chips you find on the stuff they often use for sheathing on a house. However, that stuff was even MORE dense than this. I want to retry this all with what I plan to use - 3/4" plywood, as soon as I can find a part sheet, I do not want to buy a full 4x8 sheet at this point. Most of the stuff in the handy-panel section is low grade stuff with maybe 5 plies in the 3/4" thickness - I want to use a better quality wood, mainly for the high density which should kill noise. I haven't tried cutting the stuff I have - I'd consider using it if it cuts fairly easily - it's been leaning against a wall for over 2 years now and has not taken any sort of bend or sag. I'm confident that propery supported, it won't sag. However, it is VERY heavy.