View Orientation Question

[leighant]

Here is a solution-- perhaps drastic-- but I don't think it has been suggested... a multi-level layout with train chaing direction between levels.

Let's say your layout starts with scene as viewed from east --train running from left end of layout running left to right- runs through a few scenes. Then you want to model a scene that can only be viewed from west. Have train run through a helix and climb (or descend) to a different level- then train continues running forward but track now runs right to left.

Train would be out of sight while changing directions but would be one way to make it work.

The same solution might be done without complete separate levels. Build several scenes as viewed from east, then have track disappear and run a distance either under scenery or behind backdrop, whatever, and emerge at the right end of a scene modeled as viewed from west.



To illustrate- for my vision of the Alaska RR, it makes sense to have the viewpoint FROM the East (so North will be to the right and South will be to the left of wherever the operator is standing). This works out nicely for scenes like Mt McKinley in the background (viewed from the East), or Whittier, or Seward, or the Deanli train station, or the Port of Anchorage.. all these scenes are best viewed from the East, with the track in the foreground.

But a KEY scene I want to incorporate is of the mainline running along the Turnagain Arm of the Cook Inlet. The ONLY way to view this scene is from the WEST! What to do? I can't suddenly pretend that for a small portion of my layout that the compass directions suddenly reverse. Or... can I? If so, my imagination isn't finding a way.

[ahuffman]

One other consideration that comes into the choice of view is lighting direction. In the northern hemisphere, when you're looking north, the sun is behind you unless it's very early or late in the day during the summer. We tend to unconsciously orient ourselves this way. I became aware of this tendency when I lived in Australia and found myself getting turned around for no obvious cause when navigating the roads (opposite hand driving didn't make it easier). If you're using layout lighting that has obvious directionality, your assumed direction of travel should be reasonably consistent to avoid giving conflicting clues as to orientation.

[cwclark]

Andy,....when you were in the Army did you remember to orient the map to the proper declination?...a few degrees off on a topographical map can get the entire company lost!.....that's why i went into the Navy...the stars make great charts!...LOL...Chuck..(A.K.A. former Scoutmaster)
[:D]

[Sperandeo]

Hi Barry,

Chuck Hitchcock's old HO scale Argentine Division layout was oriented so that you looked at the tracks from the north side, with eastward trains going to the left and westward trains to the right. This was based on his memories of train-watching at Holliday, Kansas, where both the station and the tower were on the north side of the track. That orientation looked right to Chuck, and people who operated the railroad quickly got used to it. I think that if you have a good reason to adopt such an orientation and follow it consistently, that you can certainly break the so-called "rule" of north-to-the-top map orientation.

(In the Army I learned that to look at terrain and orient yourself to it on a map, it helps to turn the map to match your point of view. You still need to know where north is, but it won't be right in front of you all the time.)

So long,

Andy

[orsonroy]

Mushrooms are great if you've got the space, but their applications are limited. Mostly, mushrooms are best for maximizing a rather large (and especially wide & tall) area. A mushroom won't work at all in a standard bedroom.

[johncolley]

Mushrooms, anyone? The above layout screams for it! Check out Joe Fugate's Siskiyou Line for a lot of neat ideas and solutions.

[Anonymous]

Gentlemen,

Thanks a lot for your input- it makes for some good pondering!

Ray- About those 30" curves and messing with the prototype plan... that's one of the 27 reasons I know of that makes the Alaska RR such a great prototype to model... a good portion of its curves are model-friendly small radius. The average speed on the mainline is only about 30 MPH mostly because of the tight radius!

Fiverings- It's great to hear from you! I would love to work on the Alaska RR as my second career- who knows? But to the point, I agree with you that flipping scenes is not satisfying and your idea of viewing the Turnagain mainline from the East is something that I never thought of becasue looking from the West is so ingrained in my mind. When I was stationed at Elmendorf, I made MANY trips down the arm and the view of the train against the mountain side was something I always wanted to model. BUT given my situation, your suggestion is not only pratical, it would also be just as impressive. Thanks!

I am building an around the walls layout- trying to keep it simple as I'll be moving again in less than two years (but when I put pencil to paper, the "simple" factor seems to be convienently ignored) <g>. So I may be stuck with a scene flip here or there, anyway. I'm already having to face several compromises as I condense desired scenes. For instance, I'm currently planning the Usibelli Tipple and Healy Yard. The only problem is I have only 6 feet to do it all (plus incorporate a "Loads in-Empties out" concept). So needless to say, I'm taking much liberty with the prototype track layout for those two areas starting with combining the two areas into one. This is but one example. I don'e even wnat to think about how I'm going to condense Anchorage into 9 feet- but hey, this is a hobby and I'm supposed to be having fun. Though I'm such a geek, this planning part IS fun for me!

About some of the other solutiuons you proposed- those are good. I am already looking ahead to my dream layout when I retire and to overcome the viewing angle dilemna, I will use the "VIGNETTE" idea a lot.

But the only downfall to the vignette idea is seeing one half of the train in one scene and the other half in the other scene. If the two scenes being modeled are actually 100 miles apart, this is a problem. Here's my solution: Use a "pocket" concept, where the scenes on both sides of the benchwork are "pocketed" into each other instead of running a simple scenery divider between the two sides. My vision is to seperate the vignetted scenes along one side of the aisle with a panel that is equal to the length of the scene on the other side of the benchwork.

So you start by standing next to scene "A", then walk down the aisle along a flat panel which is the rear of scene "X", then come across the front of scene "B". And the rear of scene "B" is the panel adjacent to scene "X". The train transitioning from scene "A" to "B" will actuall travel between the background for scene "X" and the panel that the operator walks by. (The panel is only there to keep the aisle neat looking). This way, the same train (of average length) shouldn't be visible in tow different scenes at once. Make sense?

But this is a discussion for another thread.

Barry

[Anonymous]

I used to work on the Alaska Railroad, so I appreciate the scenes you're trying to capture. I agree that viewing from the east is best for most of the ARR locations you've mentioned.

I personally woudn't "flip" scenes--the result just wouldn't be satisfying to me. There are a couple of methods I would consider for moving the view from the east to the west side of the tracks. The first was mentioned in a previous post--build a peninsula.

A second possibility would be to build a multi-level layout, with "waterwings" turnback curves at the ends of the scenes in question. Example: build a Seward scene on the lowest level (where trains running from left to right will be northbound); run up around a turnback curve to the middle level representing Turnagain Arm (where northbound trains will run from right to left); run up around a second turnback curve to the top level representing an Anchorage scene (where northbound trains once more will move from left to right).

Rather than engage in all of this construction effort, I would be very tempted to stick with a conventional around-the-walls concept, and model the Turnagain Arm scene looking from the east. The foreground of the scene could be the east shoulder of the Seward Highway--the foreground and the highway would undulate up and down (just like the prototype) and the railroad behind it would be relatively level--using cuts and fills (again, just like the prototype). Behind the railroad in the scene would be your representation of Turnagain Arm, done either with a painted or photomural backdrop.

To me the effect would be much more dramatic and pleasing than just another mountainside (which would be the case if the scene were viewed from the west). To see how effective such a representation can be, find a copy of the MR article from a few years back on the Florida East Coast Railroad model with Atlantic Ocean scenes in the background.

[orsonroy]

I ran into that problem when starting on my layout. Since the line I model is basically straight east-west, I wanted to orient the layout so left was west. In addition, there's a state highway that runs just to the south of most of the line, meaning most people are used to looking at the line to the north.

Unfortunately, since that highway runs to the south, most of the depots on the line are on the south side of the track, putting most of them somewhere in the aisle. I planned around the problem by increasing the benchwork where I could, but ended up flipping about half the depots to the north side of the tracks.

In addition, every single stinking grain elevator online was on the south (at least one per town, or eight on my layout). I could either not model the elevators (on a central Illinois layout? Never!) or flip them to the north side of the tracks. I ended up flipping most of my towns completely, so they'd flow properly when the elevator got moved.

Making a layout 95.3% prototypically accurate isn't as important as "play value". I consider myself a proto modeler, but had absolutely no problem messing with the track plans of my towns, which are actually modeled pretty accurately (I'm scratchbuilding houses today for Bloomington, based on photos I took last month). Let's face it, with 30" mainline curves, I've already messed with the proto trackplan pretty severely!

[johncolley]

I also have done operations on a layout that is oriented looking south so East is left and west is right. It takes some getting used to, as that is opposite of the usual. You can set it up any way YOU like. The main thing is to set a direction of travel. A lot of railroads consider north as railroad East bound and south as RR West bound, for timetable/ traffic regulation.If you choose to do the waterside at the edge and the mountains behind the tracks, Go for it...Enjoy! That's what it's all about! I have ridden the route from Fairbanks down and It is truly magnificent! Operators will get used to it however you set it up.

[mcouvillion]

There's always one! I operate on a layout that runs East-West but looking South! so that East is left and West is right. I never remember which way I'm going! The owner grew up looking South to the tracks, so it is natural for him, but I have to have a cheat-sheet, actually makeshift compass, to keep me oriented properly.

Mark C.

[Anonymous]

Jetrock and Ironrooster,

Thanks for replying to my post! I think I like the vignette idea with dividers between the scenes. My problem is as I've been visulaizing the layout in my head, I've been trying to stay "too pure" to my concept. This has casued much frustration. I'm now taking a much more realistic approach, especially since this is essentially a practice layout (will be torn down in two years).

So what I am thinking to do is to make belive the operator or spectator is riding in a tour helicopter! This concept will easily explain the change in view orientation- just like you would get if riding a helicopter and the pilot goes from one side of the tracks to the other in order to gain the bast viewpoint.

Jetrock- TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION...

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock

Let me ask, not being familiar with the Alaska Railroad: Why CAN'T one view the mainline running along the Turnagain Arm of the Cook Inlet from the east?

The mainline that runs along Turnagain arm has water on one side and a mountain on the other. The mountain(s) have very steep faces that spill right into the water. The state of Alaska cut out a ledge along the entire arm for a highway and rail line. It's a very scenic picture when viewed from the water (West). To view it from the East means you'll have to be on top of the mountain. Check out these photos to SEE what I'm talking about! (You can see the train in one or two of them).

http://home.gci.net/~rruess/Turnagain%20Arm1.JPG

http://www.railsciences.com/big_arrwater.jpg

http://www.chugachman.atfreeweb.com/Shoebox/Gallery%20V%20Web/images/Turnagain_Arm_II.jpg

http://kasei.us/pictures/events/20040131-Wedding/thumbnails/IMG_2093.jpg

http://www.akrr.com/community/PICS/Annual_Prints/2001print.jpg

Thanks,

Barry

[IRONROOSTER]

I have seen three different things done:
1. As you suggest, ignore the directions. This means the trains leaving southbound from one scene will arrive on the southbound track in the next (or north to north). This maintains scenic integrity at the expense of operational.
2. Do the scene as a mirror image - stations are in order but the one scene is reversed.
3. Build a penisula so that the scene can be viewed from the opposite side - if you have the room - this may require duckunders depending on what the rest of the layout is like.

One thing I haven't seen is to build this one scene from the east then line the wall behind it with mirrors so you can look in the mirror to see it from the west.

Personally, I would do 1 because the line between scenes/stations isn't going to be prototypical anyway.
Enjoy
Paul

[Jetrock]

I have run into a very similar sort of angst in modeling the city where I live (Sacramento, CA) in that I want to maintain realistic orientaiton and direction throughout, but of course my model railroad room is shaped nothing like the city (other than their essentially rectangular shapes) and so sacrifices of proportion and perspective must be made to fit in the stuff I'd like to have on the layout.

Of course you can reverse things--or look for different perspectives. One thing you might consider is a "vignette" type setup, where the train passes through several divided scenes with some sort of divider between them, to enhance physical separation and provide justification for reversed orientations.

Let me ask, not being familiar with the Alaska Railroad: Why CAN'T one view the mainline running along the Turnagain Arm of the Cook Inlet from the east?

[Anonymous]

Here's something I never really thought about before, until being faced with building my first around the walls layout...

When modeling a prototype (Aaska RR, in my case), most builders will run their mainline so it orientates with a compass direction. For instance, some people may decide to have the Eastbound line going to the right whenever you face the layout, and West to the left. In my case, my mainline will run North/South.

This is simple if you keep your view orientation the same throughout the entire layout. This means the viewer will remain on the "same side of the track" for the entire layout, so East will always be to the right and West to the left.

HERE'S MY QUESTION:
What happens if the views you want to depict are on opposite sides of the track???

To illustrate- for my vision of the Alaska RR, it makes sense to have the viewpoint FROM the East (so North will be to the right and South will be to the left of wherever the operator is standing). This works out nicely for scenes like Mt McKinley in the background (viewed from the East), or Whittier, or Seward, or the Deanli train station, or the Port of Anchorage.. all these scenes are best viewed from the East, with the track in the foreground.

But a KEY scene I want to incorporate is of the mainline running along the Turnagain Arm of the Cook Inlet. The ONLY way to view this scene is from the WEST! What to do? I can't suddenly pretend that for a small portion of my layout that the compass directions suddenly reverse. Or... can I? If so, my imagination isn't finding a way.

How do the rest of you guys work this kind of issue out?

Thanks,
Barry