Hello,
After a 30 year hiatus, I am going to start another layout. Due to space constraints I am pretty well restricted to an island layout about 4 1/2 ft wide and 10 ft long. I was considering using a grid frame with 1/4" plywood tabletop, covered with 1/2" insulation board (I live in the South and 1/2" insulation board is all I can get - I can use more layers if needed). This seems to be the best compromise between:
1) getting it running
2) lightweight (so I can move it around as needed)
3) still strong enough construction to allow 2) above
I had thought about splicing plywood to get more than 4' width (I really want at least 24" radius and an inch or more between track and edge of layout), but the reinforcing required for the splices kinda messes up the plan.
Any suggestions? I really need to get the ball rolling so I can run some trains for my grandkids (and to keep my interest up). Thanx to all and Happy New Year!
First, I would recommend 1/2" plywood unless you are going to have your cross pieces only about 12" apart. You would be surprised how easily 1/4" plywood sags.
You can make a 4.5' by 10' table top out of two standard 4' x 8' sheets. I would cut one sheet lengthwise down the center resulting in two 2' wide pieces. The other sheet I would cut lengthwise at the 2.5' line. resulting in a 2.5' piece and a 1.5' piecs. Use one of the 2' piece and the 2.5' piece for your table top, splicing it down the center. You will have plenty of scrao to use for splice blocks on the underside. Use 4.5' of the remaining 2' wide piecs at the end of the 8' pieces to make your table top 4.5' x 10'. In addition to splice blocks you can cut the remaining scrap into 90 degree triangles to use a bracing for the table legs.
As for the weight, if using 1/2' plywood makes it to hard to easily move, try some furniture moving pads. We have several and find we can easily move heavy furniture, washing machine, etc.
Good luck!
MikeyChrisI had thought about splicing plywood to get more than 4' width (I really want at least 24" radius and an inch or more between track and edge of layout), but the reinforcing required for the splices kinda messes up the plan.
I apologize if I don't clearly understand the concern about splicing but I'll add some thoughts. Firstly, I'd encourage developing a track plan for your space and then build what's needed to support it. If that means a 4-1/2 x 10' rectangle you can build the support structure from 1x4s with joists & 4 legs, and add plywood and foam atop that as you desire. You can add splices where needed along seams, skipping it at joist crossings as needed. Just ensure that any joint areas that will be below track are nice and flat (sand as needed), and adjust joist spacing as needed to have splicing below such spots and also consider joist locations where you will have turnout throwbars for ease of switch machine installation if under table type.
I built a 5+ by 10+ ft HO layout, much wider than recommended for reach purposes. I could have installed an access hole in the middle but put a yard there instead. Do consider having the layout legs on wheeled rollers. I mimicked a layout frame described in the 4x8 Virginian project. With 1x4 framing, you can have legs inside the cantilevered legs such that the span between legs is about 8'. I used 5/8" plywood since I planned cookie cutter elevation changes and wanted some good stiffness between risers.
I do encourage providing all the space you can between the track and the edge but also maximizing radii, which becomes a compromise. Determine whether you plan to have a backdrop at the back or access without reaching over one.
Let us know more about your track design ideas and perhaps we can add more thoughts.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
Main isle looking north. West Blob is to the left (6' wide x 18' long), East Blob is to the right, it is two ping pong tables (home made 5x10' each).
East isle looking north, East Blob is not to the left of me and the three deck wall line 16" wide x 24' long is on the right.
The middle of the West Blob is show above. It is 6' wide, but the middle, where I can not reach anyway is left empty. We are now looking south, to my left are three levels (South Ferry, Smith 9th and Times Square) and to my right are five levels (Courland St, Nevins Street, Lenox Avenue, 8th Street, and Coney Island on the top).
Cats like to think vertically.
LIONS are not very fussy about structure. The Nevins-Lenox loop is built on 2" thick fiberglass insulation board of the sort used by roofers, proped up on some 2" foam blocks. Above that is the 8th Street - 42nd Street loop, it is built of 1/2" Celotex with that lone prop in the middle which is a stick of the 2" fiberglass sheet stuck on end.
LIONS do not build pretty, but they do build cheap. Most materials were found as scrap on job sites.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Rather than using the "table-top" approach you might want to consider open benchwork and cutting your plywood roadbed to fit the track plan.
As others have mentioned, having an idea and trackplan first allows you to customize the benchwork framing and the roadbed is then cut with an allowance on either side to bring the scenery in to it.
This method is less flexible as far as design changes but it allows for over & under track layouts and avoids the dead-flat prairie look unless that's what you want to model. You can allow for city and railroad yards using smaller scraps of plywood.
There is the "cookie-cutter" option as well but this also calls for pre planning the track layout.
Call me old fashioned, but personally, I would skip the half-inch foam layer. Homasote, yes—foam, no.
Keep accessability in mind, too. As you get over 48" it is a pretty far reach to the center. With open grid you can design a "pop-out" or lift out section toward the center where you can stick your body up through the layout to access inner areas.
Try not to be in too big of a rush without looking at all the options. Ed
Ed's suggestion about making open grid benchwork, with the roadbed cut from plywood, will likely get more mileage out of a sheet of plywood, but if you're set on a tabletop-style layout, use 5/8" flooring plywood, good-one-side. This has tongue-and-groove edges, making splicing much easier as the joint requires no more support than the rest of the sheet if the joists are run at 90° to it.I used it when building the partial second level of my layout, most of which is 30" wide, and it saved me the cost of at least a couple of sheets.
Wayne
My main peninsula is about the size you intend to build (actually a little longer) using steel stud 'C acts like L' girder construction and cookie-cut plywood subgrade supported by risers made from steel stud material. (I'm a lot better at creative tin bending than I am at carpentry.) When it was free standing I could lift one end with one hand - and I am NOT Hercules.
I have found that 30 inch reach-in is not comfortable, but it IS doable - for scenery construction. I've kept the tracks closer to the edge, not over 20 inches. The end curves are concentric 24"/26.4"/28.8" (actually 610mm/670mm/730mm) with safety rails. The visible track above them has curves under 14 inch radius (350mm) but that's on a line laid out by following a mountain goat up the canyon.
So far I haven't had much trouble building or operating the monster, and I'm closing in on my 78th birthday (and need for a replacement hip...)
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - from my own field notes and photos)
I did not use a plywood top at all. Instead, I built a simple box frame from 1x4 and 1x3 lumber. I made the legs from 2x3s, and scrap plywood for the triangular gussets to stabilize the legs.
This is 5x12 feet. I put casters on the legs so I could roll it around.
The legs are held on with wood screws, so it was easy to detach them to move this whole assembly inside. Once there, I used 2-inch pink foam as the layout base.
Pink foam is very lightweight and quite stiff. It easily supports trains and scenery without bending. It is not affected by humidity, heat or cold. What it can NOT do is take a person's weight, so it's not suitable where you might have to climb on the layout. It also won't hold nails or screws, so laying track is something that's done with glue.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
You can use beaded foam too and no ply, no it is not messy unless you try to cut it with the wrong things. Beaded foam can be had for free at times. Also build it in sections bolted together with nothing bigger than 24" x 50" so it can fit throgh doorways easily.
A word of caution- I used 1/4" plywood for my tabletop layout, and five years later I am experiencing some track problems as the plywood has started to sag between the bench supports. Next time I will be using 3/4" plywood, even at the expense of some extra weight.
LION used 1/2" Celotex as the base/table top. Stud centers are 16" so that I can get a power drill in between the studs. The Celotex is very dimensionally stable, lighter than Homasote, and easier to cut.
The down side of Celotex sheets such as I have is that they have not been available in the last 50 years or so due to the adoption of fire codes. The Celotex Company is quite alive and well, but this signature product is no longer made.
LION has some remarkable spans using this stuff and very little else. Modern ceiling tiles (the 4x8 variety) could work too, they are stable, easy to cut light weight, but are far more fragile. You may need some good plywood support for them, so why bother?
Please consider your ability to reach all portions of a 4.5 foot wide layout. You mentioned having the ability to move the layout. If that allows for access to the "other side" of the layout when operating, great.
But if you think that you will need to rest an arm on the layout as you step on a stool to reach derailed cars that are 54 inches from the front edge, you may want to build the table top pretty stoutly.
- Douglas
Heed yea well! LION built some 3' wide tables for the last layout of him, and could not reach the other side, not to mention that the other side had hidden tracks below the mountain. I thought I could reach those trains from under the table. (Stoopid me!) I finally had to get about 30 guys to come up to the train room to move the whole layout about 18" north and 18" west, which left access isles that were still too small.
Make WIDE isles and narrow tables, you cannot go wrong with that.
Roger,
I may end up using 1/2" plywood without the insulation board. I was trying to keep the weight down because I am planning on using furniture movers (carpet on floor, so casters not an option). All of my prior layouts used 3/4" or 5/8" plywood, and the last one (18' x 13') used 3/4" ply with 1/2" Homasote glued to it. That layout did have some issues with track buckling. I assume because I did not seal the plywood nor the homasote, and soldered many rail joints. Thanx for the reply.
peahrens I apologize if I don't clearly understand the concern about splicing but I'll add some thoughts.
I apologize if I don't clearly understand the concern about splicing but I'll add some thoughts.
No apology needed. I didn't clearly state my concerns becuase I was trying to keep the length of the message down. The concerns about splicing the ply are:
1) the number of reinforcing splice plates would add a bit to the weight
2) Murphy's Law will make sure turnouts will fall midway over the reinforced and not-reinforced wood, making life difficult installing switch motors
3) Just the inconvenience and risk that thicknesses of plywood will mismatch
peahrens Firstly, I'd encourage developing a track plan for your space and then build what's needed to support it.
Firstly, I'd encourage developing a track plan for your space and then build what's needed to support it.
I know that is the best way. I did that on my last layout. However, I enjoy experimenting with diferent track arrangements. I am going to purchase 3rd PlanIt, but still want to play with the track. And I am really wanting to get this project started. I started an historical society in 1989 and have not been an active modeler since. I need to get my feet wet and get this going - also I am 68 y/o and have grand kids wanting to see trains run. I expect this to be an interim layout, mainly to get familiar with current methods & materials. Also, this layout will not be "permanent" like the last one -i.e. the last one was anchored to walls and floor, this one will be (of neccessity) free standing.
peahrens I built a 5+ by 10+ ft HO layout, much wider than recommended for reach purposes. I could have installed an access hole in the middle but put a yard there instead. Do consider having the layout legs on wheeled rollers. I mimicked a layout frame described in the 4x8 Virginian project. With 1x4 framing, you can have legs inside the cantilevered legs such that the span between legs is about 8'. I used 5/8" plywood since I planned cookie cutter elevation changes and wanted some good stiffness between risers.
I would like to use rollers (castors) but the floor is carpeted and I doubt the castors would work well. I have some furniture movers (foam pads on spherical shaped slippery plastic or nylon) that have served me well, and I am hoping the benchwork will be light weight enough, yet sturdy enough to allow me to move it with these "movers".
I like your layout!
gmpullman Rather than using the "table-top" approach you might want to consider open benchwork and cutting your plywood roadbed to fit the track plan.
I eliminated open benchwork for a few reasons:
1) to make it sturdy enough to move would make it too heavy
2) can't play with track arrangements
3) takes too long to get trains running
4) have to do wood working outside (room is finished and carpeted)
If I was building a "permanent" layout, I would use open benchwork (I did in my last layout).
gmpullman Call me old fashioned, but personally, I would skip the half-inch foam layer. Homasote, yes—foam, no.
I agree. I was only using the insulation board to make up for using 1/4" ply (with more bracing than 1/2"). I am now leaning towards 1/2" ply with no other subroadbed (and use cork or roadbed). Homasote has gotten very expensive here, and needs to be sealed (in Louisiana). Since I am going for "simple" I am not going to have grades.
gmpullman Keep accessability in mind, too. As you get over 48" it is a pretty far reach to the center. With open grid you can design a "pop-out" or lift out section toward the center where you can stick your body up through the layout to access inner areas.
Yes, that is why the size of the layout is limited - so I can have access to all 4 sides.
gmpullman Try not to be in too big of a rush without looking at all the options. Ed
tomikawaTT,
I'm not a metal worker-guy and bleed easily, so will stick to sticks :-)
brisweed, Thanx for the caveat re: 1/4" ply. Duly noted.
Doughless Please consider your ability to reach all portions of a 4.5 foot wide layout. You mentioned having the ability to move the layout. If that allows for access to the "other side" of the layout when operating, great. But if you think that you will need to rest an arm on the layout as you step on a stool to reach derailed cars that are 54 inches from the front edge, you may want to build the table top pretty stoutly.
ndbprrYou could also consider hollow core door blanks that are relatively cheap and quite strong when laid horizontal. They come in 2" increments through at least 18-36". I would then glue laminate floor foam underlayment for sound deadening. This could be very easy to disassemble if it needs to be moved. Two 30" blanks would be 8' by 5' and one 2' cut off to 5' and perpendicular on one end would give your 10' length
Thanx for the reply. I had considered hollow core doors (MR's current series on an N scale layout jogged my memory on that). But I was concerned about how to mount switch machines/motors since the door skin is too this to use wood screws. Any ideas? I guess we will see how MR handles that soon.
BroadwayLion Heed yea well! LION built some 3' wide tables for the last layout of him, and could not reach the other side, not to mention that the other side had hidden tracks below the mountain. I thought I could reach those trains from under the table. (Stoopid me!) I finally had to get about 30 guys to come up to the train room to move the whole layout about 18" north and 18" west, which left access isles that were still too small. Make WIDE isles and narrow tables, you cannot go wrong with that.
I have learned that lesson well. My last layout (3 levels) had a hidden reverse loop/staging tracks that was about 5" below the uooer deck (totally hidden - the only access was from below). I had the reverse loop wired for complete automatic operation - approaching train was detected, turouts aligned for entry to appropriate track, polarity reverse when train was in loop, etc. but still need access a few times. It was very uncomfortable. These days my bad knees/neck/lumber would pretty much not allow me to do that at all.
Once I get all the boxesa out of the floor, I will have about 36" to 40" clear all the way around the layout. Even with boxes, I have a minimum of 24" (most places over 30").
On the casters question, I have casters on carpet, each about 7/8" x 1-7/8" and they roll nicely and don't seem to be cutting into the carpet. I do provide a little "lift" to an end of the layout as I move it. Perhaps a tad wider roller would be nice. I could only guess at the weight of my layout but 5/8" plywood, plus scenery mostly installed.
Just suggesting casters might work fine, but I'm not familiar with the furniture movers. I just followed the suggested Virginian layout approach to legs and rollers even though my size is a bit more.
peahrens On the casters question, I have casters on carpet, each about 7/8" x 1-7/8" and they roll nicely and don't seem to be cutting into the carpet. I do provide a little "lift" to an end of the layout as I move it. Perhaps a tad wider roller would be nice. I could only guess at the weight of my layout but 5/8" plywood, plus scenery mostly installed. Just suggesting casters might work fine, but I'm not familiar with the furniture movers. I just followed the suggested Virginian layout approach to legs and rollers even though my size is a bit more.
Good info. Are the castors cylindrical rather than circular? Sounds like it from the dimensions. I didn't think castors would work, but may try it. I have short weave carpet with a foam underlayment over concrete. Castors would be a bit better than the "movers' because they are easy to attach to the legs. Thanx again.
ndbprrYou are not going to affect the structural strength of a door to cut a h ole in the bottom with rounded corners. Then you can glue a mounting block to the bottom of the top skin for switch machines.
I was concerned about ease of mounting the switch motors, and how well they would stay mounted to the thin doorskin, as well as the stability of the mount - i.e. if the pivot point would move due to flexing in the skin. Thanx for the reply.
You may indeed have trouble with Tortoises if you follow their directions. If, on the other hand, you follow the LION's instructions you will have no problems whatsoever.