BATMAN The one thing that bugs me is when people insist that their way is best and have never tried any other methods of doing things. They are not speaking from experience and seem to be just resisting change. Some people can't accept change.
The one thing that bugs me is when people insist that their way is best and have never tried any other methods of doing things. They are not speaking from experience and seem to be just resisting change. Some people can't accept change.
Yup, I hear you. Kind of like telling someone the best way to hold their hammer to drive a nail!
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
hominamadI think they key to this method is to use a lot less caulk than you think you need. A very thin layer seems to be enough.
I have often said pulling up caulked track should feel like pulling a fridge magnet off the fridge, if not you used too much caulk. I have not had to pull much track up that I have used caulk on, as this is the first layout I have used caulk on. The track I did pull up had no residue on it and was quickly reused.
Like many have said, once the ballasting is done all bets are off, however since watching the lastest batch of videos with the new improved cameras, those track nails sure stick out. If you are going for realism the nails must go. In the past when I have tried to pull out nails after glueing down the ballast, I found the nails were often glued in.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
I remember all those layouts I built with track nails, and also nailing the cork to the plywood. And I can't imagine going back to doing it that way. Yes, I used small spikes, and had a spike tool to keep from accidently hammering the railhead. But I also remember so much damaged track trying to reuse things. In those days I used a lot of sectional track - good thing each piece had multiple holes, because inevitably I'd have a tie nearly ripped out from trying to pry up each section. When i reused it, I just used one of the other holes and left the broken out hole unfilled with a spike.
The one exception was one the N scale layout I built on a piece of Homasote. Well, sure was easy to get the cork nailed to it, and the track nailed in that. It ALSO was ridiclously easy to salvage the track - usually all I had to do was pull up a little bit on it and it pulled out the spikes. Sliding a putty knife under the cork, i could pop up thos enails ad well and save the cork. I guess my definition of "holding power" is different than others - for something to have "holding power" to me, it has to be mor elike nails in playwood - really hard to get out. Maybe the people who say Homasote has great spike holding power mean it has 'good enough' spike holding power, with the benefit of it being easy to drive them in.
These days, I'm all about the cheak latex caulk. I don;t use any special stuff that says 'adhesive' or actual adhesives like PL or Liquid Nails. Sticks cork to foam or wood, stick track to cork while still allowing the track to be pulled up without damage, doesn;t attack foam, can be used to stack piece of foam for scenery, can stick switch motors to the bottom of the layout - million and one uses.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I use diluted elmers white glue, simply because it is NOT permanent. I simply use a spritz water bottle to spray the dried and secured track, and the glue reactivates. I can easily shift the track/roadbed into slightly different angles. Oftentimes, the glue simply dries again and there is no need to apply more. Entire sections of flex track can be removed and easily washed in soapy water if you want.
I prefer glue over caulk for this purpose, since my experince with caulk suggests its harder to reactivate and adjust the track after it has dried. And its harder to wash off if you go that far.
Nails? Seems more labor intensive to me, especially if you want to move both the track and roadbed....but I've not used nails for track in a long time and I'm just recalling from memory.
- Douglas
hominamad Just wanted to post a quick upate. I bought a tube of the Alex DAP Plus stuff recommended by some people and did a quick test with a small piece of sectional track. I attached a piece of cork roadbed (with glue) to a cut 2x4 I had lying around. Once that was dry, I used a thin layer of the caulk on top, and set the track on it. The next day the caulk was completely clear and the track was pretty secure on there - although with a decent amount of force I probably could have ripped it off. I then took a putty knife and slid it under the track to see if I could easily get it up if I wanted. The track came up beautifully, and with no residue or anything on the bottom. So, I feel confident now in using this method, because if I need to redo any sections, I see I can easily get the track back up again. Will also avoid any kinks or sagging I could get by using nails accidentally. I think they key to this method is to use a lot less caulk than you think you need. A very thin layer seems to be enough. Thanks everyone for your input. H
Just wanted to post a quick upate. I bought a tube of the Alex DAP Plus stuff recommended by some people and did a quick test with a small piece of sectional track. I attached a piece of cork roadbed (with glue) to a cut 2x4 I had lying around. Once that was dry, I used a thin layer of the caulk on top, and set the track on it.
The next day the caulk was completely clear and the track was pretty secure on there - although with a decent amount of force I probably could have ripped it off. I then took a putty knife and slid it under the track to see if I could easily get it up if I wanted. The track came up beautifully, and with no residue or anything on the bottom.
So, I feel confident now in using this method, because if I need to redo any sections, I see I can easily get the track back up again. Will also avoid any kinks or sagging I could get by using nails accidentally.
I think they key to this method is to use a lot less caulk than you think you need. A very thin layer seems to be enough.
Thanks everyone for your input.
H
There really is NO Best way as each type of sub-base has better ways of attaching the track.
Foam sub-base - tends to work better with Latex Caulk - Reason - Foam won't hold short track nails and white glue will work but is way too slow to dry.
Homasote sub-base - track nails are easy to use and hold great - will also work well with Latex caulk. Nails are quick and fast. Can run trains right after laying the track.
Plywood sub-base - really hard to use track nails (needs drilled for each nail) - works well with Latex caulk.
Nails are quick to use and the track is easily pulled up with no track or turnouts destroyed due to a glue or caulk!
Latex Caulk is quick to use but there is a drying time needed which requires the track be weighted down until dry. Fairly easy to lift the track but can sometimes require removing bits of the Latex Caulk that remains stuck to the ties.
Being real careful in spreading the thin coat of Latex will eliminate this but how many REALLY will spend the time to do the job properly?
Good old White Glue will work but is not that great in holding plastic ties.
I have even used Latex Paint - again a thin coat and lay the track into the paint - weights are needed to hold it down until dry - longer drying time than Latex aulk.
In making changes to the trackwork - Latex caulk and White Glue is going to be the harder to do in compairson to the Track Nails.
NOW - if the track is ballasted - there is really no need for either method as the Ballast will hold the track in place. I remove the track Nails and reuse them elsewhere.
Every method has its plus and minus - try them all and see which one YOU like!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
I use Peco nails, (very small and sharp) into pre drilled holes in the middle. After painting and ballasting they are really hard to see. Doug
Hominamad - I always used the old method, wood base - cork roadbed - nails down the center. Even for turnouts. In my opinion, this worked best for me. Never had a problem reusing the track, nails, or roadbed.
Im getting ready to lay track in the next couple months on a new layout. I will continue this method. Why change what works, aye?
Douglas
I hear ya! Maybe they've even tried other methods; but, still think their's is the best. There may even be a majority of people who think a particular way is the best. However, it's only the best for them.
With all of these "What's the best... posts", I think to myself, Oh-Oh, here we go again! Hominamad, the original poster, should have received an outline of the variuos ways of securing track to try out, which was the purpose of his questions.
I wish him the best!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
hominamad Great responses. My sub roadbed is plywood. Then cork on top of that. I think I'm leaning towards trying out spikes first, but I am definitely more open to the idea of caulk now after hearing everyone's experiences.
Great responses. My sub roadbed is plywood. Then cork on top of that. I think I'm leaning towards trying out spikes first, but I am definitely more open to the idea of caulk now after hearing everyone's experiences.
Calking is good if you don't have to tweak the rail, once its calked in place well need I say more ?
Lynn
Present Layout progress
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/290127/3372174.aspx#3372174
mactier_hogger Ouch....this is becoming a flame war!! It all depends upon the type of track that you are using and your degree of "adherance to realism"
Ouch....this is becoming a flame war!! It all depends upon the type of track that you are using and your degree of "adherance to realism"
I don't know if you were refering to my post; or, what? I can assure you that a flame war was not my intentions! In fact, asking what is best (in anything) is a good way to start a flame war and it remains, there is no BEST.
The fact, that you misunderstood what my intentions were, caused me to go back and add some smilly faces, so others will not be confused.
Dean
30 years 1:1 Canadian Pacific.....now switching in HO
hominamad I'm about to start the track-laying phase of my first, 5x9 HO layout. I'm using all Peco flex track and turnouts and standard cork roadbed. From the reading I've done, I've seen 3 basic methods of securing the track to the cork. Wanted to get some input to see which method people prefer here. If there are any other ways to do this, I'd love to hear that as well.1) Attach track with standard nails or track tacks in the center of tie. I would use a pin vise to drill holes every few ties and nail the track down that way. Seems like the main pros are that its quick and easy. Only con I can think of is that it doesn't look as realistic?2) Use track spikes to secure the ties on the outside of the rail on both sides. I believe this requires filing or cutting away the existing plastic (fake) spikes, and then using pin vise to put hole in place and hammer down spikes. Seems like this much more realistic, but also slightly more time consuming? I would imagine that this way is also more secure than #1 since you have two spikes per tie instead of one in the middle?3) Use glue, caulk, or some kind of adhesive to attach the track. This seems like a popular method, but I don't understand why. Doesn't it ruin the track if you have to lift it for some reason to adjust, etc at a future time? I am leaning towards #1 or #2, but am really curious to know why people glue the track down. Having the ability to pull out the pins and make adjustments seems like a big benefit to using spikes in some form.Looking forward to everyone's feedback!
I'm about to start the track-laying phase of my first, 5x9 HO layout. I'm using all Peco flex track and turnouts and standard cork roadbed. From the reading I've done, I've seen 3 basic methods of securing the track to the cork. Wanted to get some input to see which method people prefer here. If there are any other ways to do this, I'd love to hear that as well.1) Attach track with standard nails or track tacks in the center of tie. I would use a pin vise to drill holes every few ties and nail the track down that way. Seems like the main pros are that its quick and easy. Only con I can think of is that it doesn't look as realistic?2) Use track spikes to secure the ties on the outside of the rail on both sides. I believe this requires filing or cutting away the existing plastic (fake) spikes, and then using pin vise to put hole in place and hammer down spikes. Seems like this much more realistic, but also slightly more time consuming? I would imagine that this way is also more secure than #1 since you have two spikes per tie instead of one in the middle?3) Use glue, caulk, or some kind of adhesive to attach the track. This seems like a popular method, but I don't understand why. Doesn't it ruin the track if you have to lift it for some reason to adjust, etc at a future time? I am leaning towards #1 or #2, but am really curious to know why people glue the track down. Having the ability to pull out the pins and make adjustments seems like a big benefit to using spikes in some form.Looking forward to everyone's feedback!
My process might be the OLD WAY of doing it; but, it worked for me. I drew the centerline of my tracks on my plywood sub road bead and then tacked cork road bed down on either side of this line, then used track nails to fix the track in place. This allows me to easily remove and rearrange my track work should the need or desire arise. Once I was happy with how the track work looked and worked, I ballasted the track and removed the track nails as they were no longer needed to hold the track in place.
wp8thsub hominamad 1) Attach track with standard nails or track tacks in the center of tie. ...Only con I can think of is that it doesn't look as realistic? That's the con all right. Provided you're using track that doesn't already have holes down the center of the ties, I don't see recommending this method. It's no more secure than your option 2 and not much faster. 2) Use track spikes to secure the ties on the outside of the rail on both sides. I believe this requires filing or cutting away the existing plastic (fake) spikes, and then using pin vise to put hole in place and hammer down spikes. Seems like this much more realistic, but also slightly more time consuming? I would imagine that this way is also more secure than #1 since you have two spikes per tie instead of one in the middle? What I've done is to use spikes on alternating sides of the track, spike the near side of one rail, the far side of the next, and so on. It's every bit as secure as it needs to be in most cases. Spiking both sides is fine too, and doesn't take much extra time. You can remove the cast-on spike heads, or drill adjacent to them. Another option I've used is to spike on both sides of the rail adjacent to a tie. It's almost as secure as going through the tie and requires no drilling. The paired spikes look a lot like a rail anchor so aren't really obtrusive. They disappear after weathering and ballasting much more readily than spiking down the center. 3) Use glue, caulk, or some kind of adhesive to attach the track. This seems like a popular method, but I don't understand why. Doesn't it ruin the track if you have to lift it for some reason to adjust, etc at a future time? This is what I currently do. I use DAP Alex Plus clear sealant (as opposed to adhesive caulk), which secures the track nicely but can be readily removed if need be for future adjustments. With this method, track really stays where it should be, and it's quite easy to get and maintain perfect alignment. There are no visible fasteners to mar the appearance.
hominamad 1) Attach track with standard nails or track tacks in the center of tie. ...Only con I can think of is that it doesn't look as realistic?
That's the con all right. Provided you're using track that doesn't already have holes down the center of the ties, I don't see recommending this method. It's no more secure than your option 2 and not much faster.
2) Use track spikes to secure the ties on the outside of the rail on both sides. I believe this requires filing or cutting away the existing plastic (fake) spikes, and then using pin vise to put hole in place and hammer down spikes. Seems like this much more realistic, but also slightly more time consuming? I would imagine that this way is also more secure than #1 since you have two spikes per tie instead of one in the middle?
What I've done is to use spikes on alternating sides of the track, spike the near side of one rail, the far side of the next, and so on. It's every bit as secure as it needs to be in most cases. Spiking both sides is fine too, and doesn't take much extra time. You can remove the cast-on spike heads, or drill adjacent to them.
Another option I've used is to spike on both sides of the rail adjacent to a tie. It's almost as secure as going through the tie and requires no drilling. The paired spikes look a lot like a rail anchor so aren't really obtrusive. They disappear after weathering and ballasting much more readily than spiking down the center.
3) Use glue, caulk, or some kind of adhesive to attach the track. This seems like a popular method, but I don't understand why. Doesn't it ruin the track if you have to lift it for some reason to adjust, etc at a future time?
This is what I currently do. I use DAP Alex Plus clear sealant (as opposed to adhesive caulk), which secures the track nicely but can be readily removed if need be for future adjustments. With this method, track really stays where it should be, and it's quite easy to get and maintain perfect alignment. There are no visible fasteners to mar the appearance.
Don't forget, with track spikes you don't have to wait for them to dry, nor do you have to weight the track down until they dry. You can run a train on the track immediately if you've connected to powered track.
Tried both. Spikes forever.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Nails or spikes because if you make a mistake, and even experienced people need to change things, you can simply pull the nail or spike out with needle nose plyers and do over.
With glue, well, it's kind of permanant from the git go and I hate permanent right away. You have to pry up the track or loosen it with water ... risking damage and extra expense. No thanks. Old fashioned is best IMO. I don't use foam under my track either or I guess I've be forced to use glue, and I don't want to be forced to do that. So in my humble opinion, nails or spikes are best.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I use nails. Most flex track comes with nail holes in the ties, one hole every few inches. The blackened hobby shop nails are practically invisible once driven. The much cheaper bright steel hardware store nails will disappear after a dab of paint in placed on the nail head. Be careful not to drive the nails in too hard, it will bend the tie and pull the rails closer together and out of gauge.
The question is what the nails are driven into. Cork doesn't hold nails very well, and most of the nails go thru the joint between the left hand and right hand cork strip. Foam doesn't hold nails (or anything else) at all, so for a layout of cork laid on foam, nails won't do much (if anything) to hold the track in place. Cork laid on homosote is better, the homosote holds nails very well. Cork laid on plywood is a problem, the glue layers in plywood are so hard the nails bend rather than drive home.
My roadbed is wood, (home resawed pine), laid on foam, which holds nails very well. Acrylic caulk hold the wood roadbed in place, and track nails secure the track to the pine roadbed.
Acrylic caulk will do a fine job of holding flextrack down to cork, or nearly anything else I can think of. If necessary, you can get the track up later with a putty knife. The dried caulk can be rubbed off the tie strip with your fingers. I would not use Elmer's glue. It doesn't hold to plastic tie strip very well, if at all.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
LION likes nails down the center. Him frequently adjsuts removes or repairs things. Him built big staging yards on the lowest level but then tore them out and put a four track mane lion down there. So NAILS.
LION uses no foam roadbed. Unless you model the main line of all mane lions, they look too much for my eyes. Industrial tracks and yards of youre simply do not need them, although the new rail facilities being built in Richardton are all well built up and ballasted, but LION still uses roadbed foams and corks NOT. Too much money to spend. LION lays tracks directly on table. But then LION models subway trains that run in a hole in the ground or on an elevated structure. Ballast, what there is of it comes from Walmart. It is found in the pet section and has a picture of a cat on t the bag. You don't want to glue that stuff down or it will clump on you. But then if gravity works out doors, it should work just as will indoors, don't you think. Besides without the roadbed, there is nothing for it to vibrate off of.
PINK FOAM AND NAILS. Nobody told me I could not use nails in foam, so I did just that. Well, the nails went in real easy, I could see that they were not going to hold tracks down, but I had gravity for that, so the nails kept it from sliding around. This worked for more than five years, so you cannot tell me it does not work. Then I got the bright idea of using reed switches to control signals and train detection, and I put a magnet on the bottom of all my trains. Guess where the nails went. I had to go back across the foam sections with some Elmer's glue. I ran a bead of it down the center of the tracks, with a glob on each nail head. Problem solved, and the tracks can still be reused.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Nails down the centre and once I ballast pull them out.
I use simple Elmers white glue. It holds very strong, and is very simple to pull track back up without doing damage to it. I started with Caulk, but found that it stuck a bit too well.
I agree with the others. There is no "best" way. There is only the best way for you and your situation. The more "final" the track you are laying the more heavily one would tend toward an adhesive be it caulk or glue. If you think about it the track is going to get glued down anyway when you do ballast work.
Through the years I have used all the methods mentioned above at one time or another. I vary the method I use based upon the layout I am working with. I have even used nails until the ballast is done and then pull out the nails. shrug. I fully expect my "final" real layout will be done using matte medium on foam roadbed.
Long ago when being taught to ride enduro and hillclimb on a motorcycle my uncle said, "There's more than one way to skin a ---." "The best line is the one that gets you over the top."
After some internet research, including this esteemed forum and some experimentation I chose to use a thin bead of Elmers white glue spread out some with my fingers to hold M.E. flex track down onto the cork. The white glue allows plenty of time to position the track and I use canned food to weigh the track down while the glue dries. Works just fine, but have yet the need to reposition any track, have heard that a soaking with water will soften the white glue enough to easily move the track.
The turnouts I spike down every three or four ties, using spikes just long enough to get past the cork and enter the plywood road bed. But first I drill a pilot hole, then a clearance hole thru the tie. It may be that my dremel skill is lacking, but I stick with a pin-vise for the pilot holes after breaking too many bits, but find the Dremel works well drilling the clearance holes.
Good luck and regards, Peter
I've built two layouts now that used the caulk method, and I can;t ever see going back to nails or spikes. Very fast, and when done properly you easuly lift up track to make changes or save it for the next layout. The key is a sparing application of the caulk - spread it out thin. To point: a single tube (standard caulk gun type tube) was plenty for me to do all the roadbed AND track for an 8x12 double track 'donut' layout. There should never be any oozing up on the ties - if there is, you used too much. I do caulk my turnouts. A little bit ahead of the throwbar, and then up under the frog and to the diverging legs. No caulk under the area where the points move.
On curves and in critical areas I use pushpins to hold things in place. On straights, I'll maybe use 3 pins, one at each end so the joint doesn't get moved and I don't bump the open end as I attach the next piece, and one in the middle so it doesn't accidently get bumped out of alignment.
Track nails and/or caulk, never glue. Use whatever you enjoy using and don't resist trying new methods.
On this layout I used T pins to hold down all my track until everything was perfect. I then pulled a section of T pins and using a paint scraper, spread a very, very thin layer of caulk under the track by gently lifting it up a couple of inches as I went along.
To pull the track off I lift one end by sliding an exacto knife under the first tie or two and just peel the track off as if I was pulling a fridge magnet off the fridge. I don't attach turnouts.
Good luck.
I used Alex Plus caulk for both the cork and Atlas flextrack (with Walthers Shinohara turnouts) for my 5'x9' HO layout started 3 yrs ago. I built a similar size layout in 1980 and believe I used spikes, but now unsure how long they were to hit the plywood through the cork. I would definitely do the Alex Plus approach again. I did have to modify a couple things and indeed it is easy to get up the track and reuse it. I did use a tad of caulk under the turnouts to help secure them, of course staying away fro the throwbar. Also, it's good practice to sand away a bit of cork below the throwbar for freedom of movement.
I'd suggest not to make a decision but rather try both on a piece of plywood.
As you go along, use a putty knife to spread the caulk along the center of the cork. A smallish bead that spreads to a fairly thin layer is all that's needed. As you proceed, you will need to make your track joints (rail joiners, and I soldered most of mine), bend your flex to near shape needed, put down an additional length of caulk, place and fine tune the track and pin it as needed as well as add books. You can continue along but don't feel like you need to get everyhing done in 1-2 days. Let dry overnight before removing books.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
I built the first part of my last layout using "caulk on foam." Then I switched to "spikes on homasote." Spikes on homasote is the only way to go, period. I personally think caulk for holding down track is the most overrated thing in this hobby in at least the last 20 years. It's horrible. It takes longer than spiking and is far more difficult to change.Micro Engineering spikes are very small, and virtually invisible, especially if you paint and/or weather your track.