Someone else does this with Tortoise and I THOUGHTI bookmarked his site but I can't find it now. I stopped using Tortoises a while ago, I use servos now. And the one I did that way, well, Servos have a unique property in that when use like a Tortoise, the wire also spins, so I just connected the part that comes down throught he brass tunbe to the servo and it movea a bit side to side but also spins and moves the throwbar.
Think about the Switchmaster picture. The one wire coming out of the Switchmaster moves back and forth - so does the wire from the Tortoise. It hooks in the loop of the other part of the linkage and moves it side to side. For that, you'd mount the Tortoise on its side, witht eh wire from the Tortoise in the same position as the wire fromt he Switchmaster (though physically underneatht he motor, not on top like the Switchmaster. EXACTLY the same. What are you missing that the Tortoise wouldn't work just like the Switchmaster?
To have the Torise in its mormal arrangement, you would need to space it down fromt he bottom of the layout. Now you have a wire going tick-tock from the Tortoise. Stick that in a loop on the end of the other link - like the loop used for the Switchmaster but parallel to the layout, not bent 90 degrees like that. Tortoise goes tick-tock, wire in loop goes tick-tock, arm moves side to side, other end moves side to side up top and moves the throwbar.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinkerIf you lay the Tortoise on its side...
I've installed Switchmasters before and understand how the upper half of that linkage works. I'm still curious how you connect it all to the Tortoise. Are you using something similar to the piece that comes with the Switchmaster with a loop on the end? What do you fabricate that from? How do you mount the Tortoise to the layout? Crank up or crank down? Can I talk you into taking a photo of one that you've done and posting it?
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
MisterBeasleyAre you tight for train length in the reverse loop, so that the engine crew can wave at the caboose crew when they near the turnout?
That is exactly the case. The reverse loops at the ends of the layout are the factor that limits train length. The goal was to accomodate 2 locomotives, 20 coal hoppers and a caboose. I think I could get away with 22, but with 23 the lead unit would whack the caboose.
Are you tight for train length in the reverse loop, so that the engine crew can wave at the caboose crew when they near the turnout? Or is the loop somewhat longer?
If you've got room, consider moving the isolation points away from the turnout. This will give the turnout more time to throw as the train approaches.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
MisterBeasleyBe aware that if you are pushing the points over the Tortoise is actually running behind a little. If you use a stiffer wire, the point motion will also be stiffer and the engine may not be able to push them over so easily. If your points are not binding, they should move right with the wire, and stiffer wire won't make any difference in their speed.
Very good point! I'm begining to think that the guys that invent this stuff in the first place have already tested it all and come up with the right compromises.
Maybe the right answer is to stick with the .025" wire unless I need a wire that is longer than the one provided. If I was good at math, I could probably calculate the diameter required to maintain the same pressure for any length. Another possible solution would be to slip a section of brass tubing over the wire to match the extra roadbed thickness. That way the same length of wire would always be flexible.
I have 2-inch foam and I use .039 wire. One thing to note is that heavier wire will not fit into the little hole in the actuator. You will have to drill that out. The smallest bit in the set that came with my cordless drill is perfect. You might need to do that on the throwbar, too.
Carl noticed: If I run the train too fast and it gets to the turnout before the Tortoise is finished, the loco just help move the points the rest of way.
If I run the train too fast and it gets to the turnout before the Tortoise is finished, the loco just help move the points the rest of way.
Be aware that if you are pushing the points over the Tortoise is actually running behind a little. If you use a stiffer wire, the point motion will also be stiffer and the engine may not be able to push them over so easily. If your points are not binding, they should move right with the wire, and stiffer wire won't make any difference in their speed.
If you lay the Tortoise on its side, the arm then moves int he same direction as the Switchmaster arm, so it would connect identically. If you use a block of wood so the Tortoise mounts in its normal position but not dorectly up against the subroadbed, you now have the Tortoise wire sticking up (cut it off so it clears the underside of the layout) moving back and forth. If that were inside a loop on the end of the rest of the link, it would push it side to side, which translates to the arm on top in the throwbar going side to side. It does not connect directly to the moving part on the Tortoise, you still need another piece of wire there. Although it can.
Think about it in steps. The arm is int he throwbar. Move that side to side, the part going through the brass tube spins. The vertical part spinning, with the bottom end bent over like the topside aprt, moves back and forth. It does not matter if this part is parallel to the hortizontal part linking the throwbar or not, it can be at any angle - when the verticla part turns clockwise and coutnerclockwise, the horizontal portin will move side to side. If something (like th Tortose) moves the bottom horizontal pice left and right, the verticla part spins, and moves the upper horizontal part side to side.
rrinkerYes, this is for Switchmaster but you can connect a Tortoise the same way.
I figured this is how you were doing the part through the layout and controlling the throwbar, but I still don't get how you mount the Tortoise and attach it to the wire under the layout.
http://www.builders-in-scale.com/bis/sm-home.html
Scroll down. Yes, this is for Switchmaster but you can connect a Tortoise the same way.
rrinkerThe J shaped bent wire with a piece of tubing is far superior to the 'tick tock' standard Tortoise install, it's just more work.
I'm going to need a picture to understand this.
Outside of Peco turnouts with the springs still in them, or small frog number all-rail turnouts (like a Fast Tracks built one - where you are literally 'bending the iron' to move the points - in contrast to say Atlas where the points move freely because theyhave hinges), I can;t see why heavier wire is needed. THe problem is usually elsewhere - I used .032 piano wire through FOUR inches of foam plus 1/4" luan plywood plus cork roadbed - NO problems. Flicking the points once in position adn they snap back with more than enough force.
The J shaped bent wire with a piece of tubing is far superior to the 'tick tock' standard Tortoise install, it's just more work. For one, you can easily drill the hole AFTER the turnout is in place, because the hole does not go under the throwbar. Also, there is no large open hole to provide the clearance for the wire th move back and forth, it's a tiny hole to hold the brass tube and so there is no 'black hole' to pour ballast into as you try to ballast around the area. Third, you can mount the Tortoise inthe normal positon, or on its side with this kind of linkage - useful on double deck designes or where clearance underneath is limited. I found that with servos, it's even easier - no need to join the actuating wire fromt he servo to the J rod - just connect the bottom of the J rod to the servo - yes it will go side to side a bit, but because of the way it attaches to the servo, it also spins - operating the points quite satisfactorally. I will be doing ALL of mine like this going forward, not just the ones in close clearances.
Also, they do not have to be between the rails, you cna put them off to the side by the headblock ties, and then cover it up with a switch stand.
peahrensWhat are you using; i.e., how much distance from Tortoise to the ties?
The turnout sits on 7/8" hardboard spline roadbed. The roadbed wasn't wide enough to attach the Tortoise so I glued and doweled chunks of 1x2 to the sides. So the top of the Tortoise to the bottom of the ties is 1-1/2". I won't let this happen again. I'll use 1x1 if I need to widel the roadbed for the Tortoise.
Thanks for all the responses. I've been testing (ok, playing with the train) and it seems to do fine. If I run the train too fast and it gets to the turnout before the Tortoise is finished, the loco just help move the points the rest of way.
I hate to redo something that is working, but I'm going to try .032" wire next time.
Also, if anyone is interested, the PSX-AR from DCC Specialists works great. I just love it when you put something like this together and it all works like advertised.
I think the hardest part of the whole process will be not losing the rest of the parts in the bag that came with the Tortoise 6-pack before I install the next one.
I use .039 piano wire. I've never understood why after years of purchasers and posters using heavier wire, that Circuitron hasn't simply gone to heavier wire.
You will likely need "hard wire cutters" to cut the wire. Regular dikes won't, literally, cut it. They're sold at hardware stores. The long handle versions (around 8" or so) cut great, but if you have overhead decks.levels, etc. (staging) short handled hard wire cutters are better.
If you have a dremel cut off tool that can be used as well but a bit harder to control in tight areas.
Also, if you intend using the remote mounting bracket, be aware that they require a much smaller hole than for the regular/direct mounting. ( I forget now, but somewhere in the 1/16" to 1/8"). It was a real drag figuring out a workaround once I'd drilled the "usual" 1/4" to 1/2" holes on every turnout during the benchwork build.
Jim
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
While other modelers seem to have no problems with piano wire, LION finds that even a hevier piano wire is to flexible.
And your wire cannot be too stiff, or it will move the turnout off of the roadbed.
LION has never bent the top of the wire, and has never found it necessary.
LION has used 1/16" steel welding wire for this actuator. You would have to enlarge the hole in notor and in the throwbar. Yes, it is very stiff in contravention of number 2 above, but with care it will work, especially if you are sitting under a 2" thick foam surface.
The motor moves the switch quickly enough. You are using #4 or maybe #6 turnouts, but even a #8 turnout is limited (on the prototype) to 16 mph. (MPH=1/2 of turnout number)
Besides your train approachin an interlocking (Home signal), it should be RED until after the turnout is cleared. It is perfectly normal to come to a full stop before merging with the mane lion.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
1. I swapped to a thicker wire on a few turnouts when they acted up a bit, tending to stick, when I got a bit sloppy with track paint. I think I found 0.032 music wire at Hobby Lobby, but can't seem to find it. EDIT: Aha! Found it. $1.29 fo 4, 12" pieces. A sufficient upgrade for my distance from Tortoise to throwbar, but some like even heavier diameter wire. EDIT again: you do need to enlarge the Tortoise hole slightly for the larger spring rods, but that's pretty easy.
2. Yes, the lower fulcrum positions will tend to increase leverage (move the top of the wire at the throwbar more). If you're not getting good (sprung) contact with the switch to one side versus the other, try to figure out why. It may be that things aren't quite centered so the movement is biased to one side. If minor, you might try bending the wire in place slightly to nuetralize any bias. Do make sure the wire is not stopped by the subroadbed/roadbed hole edge. I used a larger hole size than Tortoise recommended; i.e., 3/8" vs their 1/4" suggestion.
3. I'd wait and see if the movement is too slow for an approaching train. That would seem odd to me except on a reverse loop, say, with the train one car or so shorter than the loop.
4. I cut my wires off above the throwbar to ensure it could not snag a coupler hose. Recoginze the piano wire is tough; i.e., good wire cutters are needed.
My experience is with 5/8" plywood plus cork roadbed in HO, plus a piece of thick 3M doublestick tape atop the Tortoise. What are you using; i.e., how much distance from Tortoise to the ties?
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
If you need it to be really fast - use a solenoid. There's just no way a Tortoise will ever be as fast. Do NOT use more than 12V to the Tortoise in an effort to make it faster, that's the max they are designed to handle.
What might work to make it faster is to build a slightly different linkage, not install the Tortoise as shown in the instructions. You want something where a short distance moved by the side connected to the Tortoise results in a long movement on the end connected to the throwbar. Use the stock wire to keep the pressure on the points from being too great - the Tortoise will have a long way to move even after the points close and the springy wire will absorb the excess force. One way to make a mechanism like this is to take a piece of a heavier wire, like the .037, and bend it in an L shape, with a little hook in the long end. Drill a hole a couple of ties away from the throwbar, adn glue in a piece of brass tube the next size up from .037 so the wire can fit through it, but snugly. the little hook goes int eh throwbar when you put the other end through the tubing. Underneath, bend the wire over, in any direction where it is most convenient to mount the Tortoise. Put a look in the end. This piece should be half the length of the part on top of the benchwork - a 2 to 1 advantgae, in that the throwbar will move twice as fast as the piece under the layout. If you have the vertical clearance, you can just mount the Tortoise on a standoff scrap of wood, and the actuating wire goes in the loop in the end of the wire like it was the throwbar of the turnout. Or you can mount the Tortoise on its side and then bend the wire at right angles just past the mounting flange fo the Tortoise and stick it in the loop. Either way, the points will completely move long before the Tortoise finishes its throw, so the turnout will switch positions quickly.
1. Quite a few folks use a larger wire. It is necessary when going through more than 3/4 inches of subroadbed thickness. So replacing the wire with a larger diameter one is common. Just don't make the wire diameter so big that the movement pushes on the turnout so much that it moves it side to side on the roadbed. I typically use 0.032 and 0.042 diameter piano wires.
2. Use a larger wire.
3. I wouldn't put more than 12 volts on it. The longer fulcrum may help the points move faster in relation to the moving arm on the Tortoise. Perhaps you could slow the train down some?
4. As long as the tortoise is mounted tightly to the bottom of the layout, and the track doesn't move up and down on the roadbed, bending the wire over is not really necessary. If anything, you could leave it a little long, just as long as it does not stick up above the top of the rails.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
I just finished installing my first Tortoise. It was easy enough, but I still have a couple of questions.
I'm also interested in any other Tortoise tips anybody would like to share?