Someone mentioned the room dimensions. The second floor of my home is basically 3 rooms, each 13.5'x13.5' arranged in an L. I'm using two of the rooms with trains passing thru the wall between them twice. This is where I get the 13.5'x27' I mentioned in my earlier post. I will be starting a build thread as soon as I have enough to warrant a picture
I haven't noticed any mention of the overall room size, but a 24" shelf offers plenty of room for industries, both large and small. While much of my layout is about 30" deep, it's similar in concept to your plan of a single-tracked main with passing sidings.Almost any Walthers structure kit can be modified for a shelf-type layout by utilising the unseen back wall to extend the visible one, and where space is tight due to aisle-side industries, the end walls can be shortened or eliminated entirely. (And don't discard the leftover pieces - they can be combined with other cast-offs to create another industry.)
Here's a good choice for displaying and using those reefers - Walthers ice house with add-on platforms. While the layout here is about 42" deep, I'll have only two industries here, and both could be used on a 24" wide shelf, either end-to-end or, with some modification of the latter one, with one in front of the other.
The curtain wall factory in the rear was made from parts of two Walthers stamping plants, along with some leftovers from a kitbash of their George Roberts Printing factory. All of the long walls are used on the side visible from the aisle, while the end walls can be used as-is or shortened or eliminated completely. The unseen rear wall (needed for structural integrity on anything deeper than a "flat") is plain .060" sheet styrene - it's available in 4'x8' sheets from any plastic supplier at a reasonable cost. It's also useful for making larger roofs and for foundations, too, which can change the appearance of many common kits.
Another Walthers kit suitable for a shelf is their Vulcan Foundry. Again, the unseen rear wall is plain .060" styrene, and that wall was used to double the length of the structure. I added some MDC wall sections and a modified LifeLike Bottling Plant to enlarge things further, but they could be eliminated. If you wish to decrease the structure's depth, cut the end walls at a point either behind the cupola or at a point on the rear slope of the cupola's roof - this will impart a more three-dimensional appearance than if the cuts were made at the end of a plane.
Here's another one from Walthers, and ideal for a shelf layout, either as-is or with the end walls shortened. This is two Waterfront Warehouses, with roof and rear wall of plain styrene. I modified the one visible end wall to include a ground-level street front, as the building is rail-served on an elevated right-of-way:
The shelf here is only 21" wide, but it includes a double track main, three industrial sidings, and a long siding for interchange car storage. It also includes a large industry which generates enormous amounts of traffic. It's built from Walthers' ADM Grain Elevator kit, along with the add-on siloes and Redwing Milling, plus several scratchbuilt portions using more .060" sheet styrene. The kits are, naturally, re-arranged to suit the narrow shelf, and I've placed them at an angle to avoid the "flat against the backdrop look":
Here's a view from the opposite end:
Don't let the description on the box limit your use of a structure kit - if you like the looks of it, build it as intended or modify it to suit, then create signs to make it into an industry useful for your layout.
Wayne
Hi Santa Fe all the way
Your main concern seems to be the actual space avalable and fitting industry into the space.
Rather than what industries as such you seem to have some ideas of your own.
When it come to the rather clichete boast biger in America in model railway terms that is some what on the true side of things.
I would sugest get hold of some of the UK publications on designing and building model railways.
I would hope your local library can help there, the UK modelers have become rather good at packing things in to much smaller spaces that the average US modeller seems to have.
I am sure some of the ideas in those publications could easily be translated into US railroad practices and you will probably find you can squeeze in a couple of extra smaller concerns in to make it look more profitable for the railroad
regards John
DSchmitt Shermans continued in use through the Korean War. They were found to be better suited for use in the rugged terrain than the tanks designed to replace them. They were use primairly as artillery. There were very few tank-tank encounters during the war. ----- You could model a facility where Shermans were refurbished before being sent to overseas users. Shermans in Shermans out. As they were being withdrawn from US service, many Shermans were sent to "friendly" nations where they soldiered on for decades.
Shermans continued in use through the Korean War. They were found to be better suited for use in the rugged terrain than the tanks designed to replace them. They were use primairly as artillery. There were very few tank-tank encounters during the war. ----- You could model a facility where Shermans were refurbished before being sent to overseas users. Shermans in Shermans out. As they were being withdrawn from US service, many Shermans were sent to "friendly" nations where they soldiered on for decades.
At the risk of a thread hijack..... The Sherman was never designed to go up against other tanks, but to be used in an infantry support role (as it was in Korea). US armored doctrine between the wars (ignoring the advice of visionaries like Patton) was an outgrowth of the experience in WWI. Special "tank destroyers" were fielded to destroy enemy tanks. Sadly, neither of these proved adequate when faced with German tanks designed around a "main battle tank" philosophy of employment.. Late in the war, the US fielded a limited number of these tanks, which were too heavy to be used effectively in the mountainous terrain of Korea.
More to the point here, it doesn't take much of a stretch of history to include a train of Shermans in layouts set later than 1950 or so. And, especially, as Byron pointed out, it's the OP's layout. He should do what makes him happy. What good will it do the OP if he designs a layout with perfect historical fidelity if he is constantly regretting the fact that he has several beautiful flatcars of Sherman tanks gathering dust on a shelf?
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snjroy Hello. CTValleyRR wrote that "several companies make so-called low profile kits for use against backdrops". I'm only aware of one that offers 3D low profile kits and the reviews are generally not positive. Could someone identify a few of these companies that offer 3D kits? I think it would be relevant for this post. Thanks. Simon
Hello. CTValleyRR wrote that "several companies make so-called low profile kits for use against backdrops". I'm only aware of one that offers 3D low profile kits and the reviews are generally not positive. Could someone identify a few of these companies that offer 3D kits? I think it would be relevant for this post.
Thanks. Simon
Been away for a few days, but I see Byron covered the answer (Thaks, guy!).
Do you have a Walther's Sourcebook? While they don't carry everything (Horizon Hobbies products, for example), at $15, it is a tremendous resource for understanding what is available. You can also use their website, which has a very robust search feature. This can be very useful in identifying good words to use in a Google search.
As someonewho does a lot of online reviews, and uses them extensively, I will say that you should always be wary of them. In my experience, the vast majority of bad reviews are a result of unrealistic expectations on the part of the reviewer. How many times have you seen someone complain because (for example) the $20 pair of soccer cleats they bought doesn't perform like, or isn't made with the same quality materials as the $200 pair they could have purchased. I have seen one star reviews of a Saturn V rocket model kit because it didn't come assembled, or another because it wasn't large enough (at almost 4' tall) to show the details of the section the reviewer worked on in real life! I wonder how many of those bad reviews were because the purchaser didn't realize he was buying a low profile building?
Sorry. Off my soapbox now.
KyleWhen I said crew I didn't mean a train crew (though I can see how you thought that), I mean't a repair/work crew (not sure if that is the proper term). There is no way a train crew could change wheels, since you need jacks or a crane, not to mention spare wheels which have to be moved by heavy equipment. You could have the RIP track on the outer part of an yard on the layout, or you could have it were the tracks go to staging to suggest a large yard.
Ok.I see that now-more 20/20 as hindsight.
How about a small contract car shop like Transco?
A larger building a long the backdrop for the main shop with one or two storage tracks?
You could also spot inbound loads of wheels,trucks and boxcar doors.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE Kyle What about a RIP (Repair In Place) track? One, you can use it to put any rolling stock that causes problems and two, it is a universal industry, any car type can be switched there. You can also add interest by adding a crew repairing some problem, like replacing a wheel set. I would use that in the yard not as a industry.. The train crew won't be the ones changing that wheel-the car would be loaded/unloaded then returned to the yard for repair. Carmen would do the repair since they have the proper tools and the correct size wheel(s). Even a short line would forward the car to its connecting road for repairs since short lines doesn't have a car shop or employ carmen.
Kyle What about a RIP (Repair In Place) track? One, you can use it to put any rolling stock that causes problems and two, it is a universal industry, any car type can be switched there. You can also add interest by adding a crew repairing some problem, like replacing a wheel set.
What about a RIP (Repair In Place) track? One, you can use it to put any rolling stock that causes problems and two, it is a universal industry, any car type can be switched there. You can also add interest by adding a crew repairing some problem, like replacing a wheel set.
I would use that in the yard not as a industry..
The train crew won't be the ones changing that wheel-the car would be loaded/unloaded then returned to the yard for repair. Carmen would do the repair since they have the proper tools and the correct size wheel(s).
Even a short line would forward the car to its connecting road for repairs since short lines doesn't have a car shop or employ carmen.
When I said crew I didn't mean a train crew (though I can see how you thought that), I mean't a repair/work crew (not sure if that is the proper term). There is no way a train crew could change wheels, since you need jacks or a crane, not to mention spare wheels which have to be moved by heavy equipment.
You could have the RIP track on the outer part of an yard on the layout, or you could have it were the tracks go to staging to suggest a large yard.
Shermans were still in service until the early 2000s at Ft Polk, LA and Ft Irwin, CA at the national training centers to act as enemy tanks.
If you go with huts; ammo depots getting box cars!
snjroy Could someone identify a few of these companies that offer 3D kits?
Assuming HO. A Google search will reveal a number of options. Here are some:
Walthers. Here's a search stringhttp://www.walthers.com/exec/search?category=Structure&scale=H&manu=933&item=&keywords=background&words=restrict&instock=Q&split=30&Submit=Search
Woodland Scenics/DPM has a few ... and some of their 3-D buildings are pretty shallow and could be used as flats without any cutting.
FOS Scale Modelshttp://foslimited.com//index.php?main_page=index&cPath=11
GC laserhttp://www.gclaser.com/ho-backdrop-structures/
Lunde Studioshttp://www.lundestudios.com/QUICK-FLATS.htm
and many more ...
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Wow, Thanks for the ideas and pictures, that's some really fine work! An icing facility would be great, not only because it would fit nicely but because I collect reefer. Every since the first time I saw the Walthers meat packing plant kit in their catalog many years ago, I've wanted to build it. As for the Sherman, well, I was thinking of some kind of long term outdoor storage facility like the Airforce has at Davis-Motham. Rows of old Shermans waiting to be striped for spare parts to be sold to foreign armies that still use them. I would think a simple spur, chain link fence, Quanset(sp?) huts would do???
The planning of this layout has been the toughest part and has delayed construction for several years. I finally just decided that if I don't start sometime I'll never get trains running in my lifetime.
most military rail yards are simple with ramps at the end of the tracks so equipment can just drive off and move into a parking area until they are ready to move to their actual motor pools. Not much to them really but you can google or bing map view most posts here in the states to get an idea.
I have a section of my layout that's 30 inches deep, up against an angled roofline. I built this section with some city buildings. Because of the roofline, they reach "up to the sky." I used this to partially block the view of the 4 tracks behind them, a staging/storage area which also includes a station platform long enough for my 5 streamliners.
This is the Walthers Cornerstone "Centennial Mills" background building kit. It comes with all the neat stuff on the building face, and it happens to be on sale right now. I built mine at an angle, only using the side wall on the right side.
When I opened the Centennial Mills box, I was surprised to find that it's not a 3-sided kit, but a thin 4-sided structure. Since I planned to put it against the wall, I took the other side and the other end wall and made another building out of it:
Another "long industry" for your era might be an icing platform. Walthers and JL Innovative make kits for these. Unlike many other "paired" industries which realistically would not use trains to ship such a short distance, an icing facility would be close to a brewery, fruit warehouse or packing plant, and cars would move between them. In addition, a through freight might stop at an icing platform to refresh the cars, even though it's neither unloading nor loading there. And, as has been mentioned, you can take a generic structure with a loading dock and turn it into a brewery or packing plant just by putting the right sign on it.
I attached a stockyard to my packing plant. Again, it's a Walthers kit, if I recall correctly.
This is only half the kit. For a larger space, you could combine 2 or more kits and get lots of corrals and ramps. This might be an opportunity to put the siding against the wall and have the corrals in front, as you can still see the cars behind them, and you'd still have room for the main out closer to the layout edge.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
NittanyLion CTValleyRR NittanyLion By the mid to late 50s, those Shermans are either bound for an export port or a scrap yard. There were companies that used Sherman chassises as the basis for logging equipment. I can't believe that someone calling himself Nittany Lion would say that. I grew up in State College, and loved all things military as a boy. There is a US Army / National Guard center on Fox Hollow Road (on the way to the airport, between Beaver Stadium and Toftrees) where they kept about 2 dozen Shermans (76mm long barrel upgrades) until the mid-70's. Not sure they were operational, but they were there. I had the pleasure of watching them be gradually replaced by M-60 Pattons through the '70's. By the time I was tailgating on Fox Hollow Road, the M60A3s were already out to pasture for almost a decade. Heck, the M1s were gone and the M1A1 was rapidly being replaced by the M1A2!
CTValleyRR NittanyLion By the mid to late 50s, those Shermans are either bound for an export port or a scrap yard. There were companies that used Sherman chassises as the basis for logging equipment. I can't believe that someone calling himself Nittany Lion would say that. I grew up in State College, and loved all things military as a boy. There is a US Army / National Guard center on Fox Hollow Road (on the way to the airport, between Beaver Stadium and Toftrees) where they kept about 2 dozen Shermans (76mm long barrel upgrades) until the mid-70's. Not sure they were operational, but they were there. I had the pleasure of watching them be gradually replaced by M-60 Pattons through the '70's.
NittanyLion By the mid to late 50s, those Shermans are either bound for an export port or a scrap yard. There were companies that used Sherman chassises as the basis for logging equipment.
By the mid to late 50s, those Shermans are either bound for an export port or a scrap yard.
There were companies that used Sherman chassises as the basis for logging equipment.
I can't believe that someone calling himself Nittany Lion would say that. I grew up in State College, and loved all things military as a boy. There is a US Army / National Guard center on Fox Hollow Road (on the way to the airport, between Beaver Stadium and Toftrees) where they kept about 2 dozen Shermans (76mm long barrel upgrades) until the mid-70's. Not sure they were operational, but they were there. I had the pleasure of watching them be gradually replaced by M-60 Pattons through the '70's.
By the time I was tailgating on Fox Hollow Road, the M60A3s were already out to pasture for almost a decade. Heck, the M1s were gone and the M1A1 was rapidly being replaced by the M1A2!
Tsk! Children!
But to get back on topic, several companies make so-called low profile kits for use against backdrops. However, as someone pointed out earlier, you can take a razor saw to just about any model and create your own low profile building.
The widest point on my layout is 24" as well. Here are a few shots of how I delt with industries on the line. Some of these shots are really outdated, but they get the message accross I think.
wp8thsubANY industry can be used on a 24" shelf.
+1
When I first saw the original post, I was going to link some of Rob's photos. Note also that some industries can be suggested by just a track disappearing behind a hill or foliage or ending right at the aisle edge, perhaps with a fence and a gate in more modern eras. These are industries imagined to be just out of sight “beyond the benchwork”
An unseen National Guard Armory might be such a destination for your train of tanks, although as others have noted, it would be pretty unusual to see these moving by rail 10-15 years after the last one was built in 1944. But it's your layout and you can adjust history to suit.
ANY industry can be used on a 24" shelf. Think in terms of shallow relief structrures, that can back up against either the backdrop or fascia. I model a later era, but maybe these can help. All of these are on benchwork 24" deep or less.
Here's a cement plant a few inches deep by maybe 6' long.
A grocery warehouse.
A printing plant and another grocery distributor.
Grain elevators.
A fuel dealer (foreground) and feed mill (background).
Another part of the above feed mill business.
Rob Spangler
SF all the way,
Nope, one story home and for better or worse my layout resides in the garage. I failed to mention that my power house spur passes thru the back drop into a small staging area where I remove the coal loads for the empties out.
Your Sherman tank train instantly had me thinking of the Richmond Ford plant and it's role during WWII as a tank depot. That giant crane bay is now a pavilion and part of the Rosie the Riveter National Historical Park. In fact it hosted the Great Train Expo show last January.
The tanks were not built at the Richmond Ford plant, but shipped there by rail essentially complete from other manufacturers around the country to have their finishing touchs put on, like radios, guns, etc. Next to the cranebay spur was a two track pier spur where the tanks were loaded onto ships for transport to the war theaters.
There were also many open lots around the Richmond plant that were used to store completed military vehicles awaiting transport. A nearby cannery allowed some of their open property to be used for such storage.
For a model railroad I think it quite plausible to have a tanks in-tanks out depot. A portion of the cranebay building could be modeled as a narrow background building wide enough to accomodate the spur track doorway. The finished tanks on the flat cars and ready for shipment could be pulled from the crane bay and onto a pier spur for simulated ship or barge loading.
BTW, one of the reasons Ford chose the Richmond harbor area for it's plant was the ablility to have the plant serviced by both of the region's major railroads, the ATSF and SP.
Regards, Peter
CTValleyRRYou will need to look at modelling large industries that are just off the layout, with their presence suggested by just the parts of the industry that actually interface with the railroad. There are a couple of ways to do this.
That would be my approach as well and I would use regular kits cut in two and use as buildings along the back drop however,for me the Walthers background buildings was the better choice.
And, more on-topic....
You will need to look at modelling large industries that are just off the layout, with their presence suggested by just the parts of the industry that actually interface with the railroad. There are a couple of ways to do this. If the industry is against a backdrop, simply incorporate a photo of it (or paint it, if you're good enough) into the backdrop. If it's against the edge, having just a couple of buildings on the layout with the rest being imaginary, in the area occupied by the aisle. For example, a coal mine might just have the tipple with a conveyor leading off the layout; arefinery just the loading platforms, etc.
two other excellent choices are a team track and staging. Team tracks allow you to use small carloads of just about anything, while staging is the ultimate industry, representing as it does the entire rest of the world. Entire unit trains of coal could originate at your mine and head to staging.
Incidentally, be careful of trying to put an entire industry chain on your layout. Small customers close to a source would be truck served, not rail.
The Ford plant in Richmond, Ca. was a tank depot during WWll and was serviced by the ATSF. The tanks on flat cars were run into the giant crane bay. The plant put the finishing touches on the tanks. The plant also assembled jeeps and processed other tracked military vehicles.
Next door to the Ford Plant were the Kaiser shipyards where Liberty ships were built with both companies using Richmond's deep water channel into San Francisco bay. Both my Grandfather and Grandmother worked at the Richmond Kaiser shipyards during the war, he as a welder and she as a helper.
My switching layout is two feet wide. I built a coal fired power plant with a door for coal loads in and empties out. Maybe something like that would work to simulate a tank depot with crane bay door, tanks in, tanks out, half tracks in, half tracks out, parts in, Jeeps out.
Good luck and regards, Peter