DinoI am appealing to the forumites for advice on how to proceed in the very high level planning. I see really 3 options.... 1. Start with a small layout to develop my skills and see if I really like the hobby as much as I did in the past. 2. Just go ahead and begin with the layout I really want. 3. Start with a small layout that would later be able to be expanded.
1. Start with a small layout to develop my skills and see if I really like the hobby as much as I did in the past.
2. Just go ahead and begin with the layout I really want.
3. Start with a small layout that would later be able to be expanded.
LION is no big fan of books. LIONS eat creatures who spend thier time reading books. LIONS simply put things together and make them work. Or he rips them out and starts over.
Back when him was a little cub, him had ovals and they were ok. I ran and ran and ran the train and then stopped it in the station.
When I got out of the Navy and move back in with my parents for a time, there was no place for a layout table, and I was limited to building something on top of some bookcases in the basement. Since I has bought some Japanese MU equipment while in the Navy, the idea of a passenger terminal with an interlocking plant was the main feature. Around a 90 degree curve was perhaps three or four staging tracks.
Now LION is a monk living in a monastery in North Dakota. The Abbot gave me permission, perhaps remembering a layout in his youth, but never pausisng to consider what a full scale foamer could do. The Prior recommended that I could set it up in the "old refectory" since that was already given over to hobbies, and mentioned that we had several old ping pong tables (left over from when we ran a school here) as if I might take one. I took two and was off to the races.
Except that the word came from on high that this room was to be renovated into a nice conference room, and no, a train layout was not to be part of it. So that layout came down, and I built a new one in a classroom above the labrary. That was a big layout with the two ping pong tables at eather end of a 3' wide table nest to the back two walls.
Well, that layout was just too big, needed to much work, and so it got abandoned in favor of playing with computers. Now I have five servers and 30 workstations and cannot wait to get away from the computers, so I took that layout apart and built my present layout which now has about 14 scale miles of track, and while I can run eight trains at a time, running the Broadway Local in North Dakota is just as boring as running it under the streets of Manhattan. And besidzes who would run the other seven trains.
LION automated the layout of him, and now the LION sits up in the interlocking tower moving trains in and out of the terminal, but once out on the trailroad they run by themselves, making all stops as necessary, and guided by the wizidry of signals and relays. A very satisfing layout, and it gives the LION plenty to do when other tasks do not interfere. And the Abbot is pleased to give me the time to play with my creation, because then I'm not downstairs causing trouble for others. An altogether wonderful thing.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
richhotrainBuy the Armstrong book if you must, I have it too, but use it as a reference. If you start out by trying to read it cover to cover, you will either lapse into a comatose state or leave the hobby out of boredom. OK, I exaggerate, but don't start out reading that book cover to cover. There simply is too much information in it, technical information. It is a reference manual, not a start up book
I agree with Rich's comment about the John Armstrong book - it's full of great infromation but a real sleeper. Armstrong does spend time writing about standards and to me that is an important first step. i am not too rigid about too many things with the exception of the operating standards I have established. Beyond that, use his book as a reference.
There are probably many other decisions you will need to make - which scale, dcc or no dcc, location, period, budget - the list can go on and on. To help out, read other readily available materials and go from there. There are excellent resources out there including the internet. As far as size, go for the gusto but do it in stages and don't be afraid to tear out and redo. There was a portion of my layout that I built probably 15 years ago that never got beyond the bare plywood stage. It was just a couple weeks ago that I tore it all out and started to install a new reverse loop section that we definitely improve my overall operation. Included in the new section will be Elmer's Crossing which is a tribute to my dad who passed away two years ago.
Above all, have fun and don't get frustrated. The people in the forums can be a great source of information and constructive critiicism. Ask questions andm above all, welcome to the hobby. It's given me a great source of enjoyment and relaxation for many years.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
Buy the Armstrong book if you must, I have it too, but use it as a reference. If you start out by trying to read it cover to cover, you will either lapse into a comatose state or leave the hobby out of boredom. OK, I exaggerate, but don't start out reading that book cover to cover. There simply is too much information in it, technical information. It is a reference manual, not a start up book.
My advice on the layout. Start out with what you really want - - - the 10' x 15' layout. The biggest challenge there is that lift out section across the door. But, if the space is in your basement, then maybe it can be a duckunder rather than a lift out section.
The biggest downside to the 10' x 15' layout is money. It will cost more to buy the track, the structures, the landscaping. But the bigger layout will actually be easier to build more bullet proof track work and will provide more options for switching and routing.
Some years ago, I started with a small layout, then enlarged it, then replaced it. The small layout grew boring quickly. Start big and get overwhelmed. That will prove to be your best learning experience.
Rich
Alton Junction
Dino. Start with a small layout to develop my skills and see if I really like the hobby as much as I did in the past. If so, I would probably start with something like this 5' x 9':
My only advice is to THINK AHEAD(not a shout) instead of jumping in and making mistakes since mistakes cost money,causes aggravation and frustration.Who wants that? Its always best to plan,rethink and make changes on paper then rethink some more before you finalized your best layout plan.Also no need to play "Here a track,there a track,every where a track,track" on a small layout.
Less track can be better on smaller layouts.
I would hone my skills by starting with a small layout and go from there some time in the future.
With the readily available information on the internet there's no need to buy costly books since you stated you're not sure if you will like the hobby like you did in the past.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Welcome back into the hobby and to the forums.
I started with a 4x6 HO "practice" layout. While working on that my planned space got filled with returning son, so I had to retinik my next layout. I now have a 7x14' room available. Plan is for an arond the room shelf. Had I known my sace was going to be shrunk, think I would have put up a shelf around the room. I would have then put a loop of track with a passing siding or two, so that I could get trains moving. Then I would have started working on one area to develop my skills. Develop one area at a time. As mentioned above, your skills will improve and by the time you have gone all the way around the room, you will be ready to improve on some of your earlier work.
The Armstrong book is a great tool, as are these forums. Read, learn, ask questions and don't be afraid to redo, we've all done it to one extent or another.
Have fun,
Richard
I think you'll find a lot of us here are like you: started young, left the hobby for a while, then got back in.
When I jumped back in 10-ish years ago, I put together a simple 4x8. I actually finished it, soup to nuts, to gain experience with different products and techniques. I ran it for a while, to see how I liked various aspects of the operations. Then inripped it out and began work on a 5x12 model. Although I'm still working on this one, I have plans for a 12x18 dream layout, which will have to wait until funds and time are a little more plentiful.
I think the small layout you've selected is too complicated to cut your teeth on. You're likely to find that just as overwhelming as a large one. Do an oval or figure 8 with a passing siding and some industry spurs, and keep it simple at first.
DCC is your call. I thought it might be too complicated, so my first 4x8 was DC. It turns out, now that I've tried it, that it's not that much more complicated, and a heck of a lot more realistic....and fun.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
First I agree on the Armstrong book mentioned above. Read that first.
Second, since you are unsure about getting back into the hobby, I suggest you pick a tabletop layout that is simpler than the out and back above. In fact I recommend a 4x8 layout sheet of plywood layout and simpler plan. This will enable you to get some trains running fairly quickly whille doing all the different parts of model railroading - carpentry, track laying, wiring, scenery, structure building, car building, etc. Then if you decide you like the hobby you'll have some experience plus a better idea of what you like and dislike.
The danger of starting the 5x9 is that it's too complex for a trial run and requires a lot of exact track placement. The danger of the around the room layout, is that you're too committed if a little experience says you want something else.
Good luck
Paul
If you've been involved before, I'd suggest plan a full layout. But take your time working out the basic track plan. I liked using software (XTrackCAD) but some prefer paper and pencil. Above all, I encourage obtaining some good books (like in the MR store) on benchwork, effective track laying, DCC if going that route, scenery, and operations as noted above. You can also find out about some fine supplemental websites (e.g., on DCC) by asking here. Finding old threads here on specific subjects is easiest doing a google search ("site:cs.trains (subject)". I found it fine to have diversions along the way (e.g., building a sample turnout / dptp / Tortoise setup, setting up the DCC system central items, building a control panel). It's a journey. Most important perhaps, good trackwork technique results in reliable operation, versus frustration. You will re-do some things, but want to keep those items to a reasonable minimum. My opinion.
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
I am no fan of oval or other continuous run track plans -- just my own preference, mind you; I am well aware that many disagree and that some fine modelers are in that group. I follow the Tony Koester notion that you should think of two forks end to end, with the tines (the pointy bits) facing out representing staging or active yards and the center being the operating part of the layout.
One thought would be to concentrate on the interesting middle part of a track plan, say 2' wide, built to be full of local switching interest. That has the added benefit that you can start running some trains fairly early in the process. That way you are not committed to whether the ends are point-to-point staging yards, or return loops, or a point at one end and a loop at the other.
Dave Nelson
Agree with Carl. The around the walls style gives ease of access to all parts of the layout, the layout itself is not complex. Maybe hold off on the short line portion of the design until you have the outer sections built. The section crossing the door would take a little thought but is not rocket science. the 5x9 actually has a lot of track and turnouts for it's size. Once the framework is built I believe the actual laying of track and turnouts would actually be easier on option #2
Over the years, I've tried all 3 approaches. I did a 5x9 round and round and a 2x6 switching layout in my parents basement. The 2x6 was planned to be incorporated into a larger layout later on but that never happened. I'm now on my 3rd around the room. If I had forced myself to put the planning effort on either of the first 2 around the room layouts, I wouldn't be on my third.
First off, I would eliminate number 3. While it sounds like a good idea, if your skills are at the level where you require a "practice layout" it is not very likely that you will produce something you feel is good enough to include in your "real" layout later on.
As for choosing between #1 and #2, how handy are you in general? Are you comfortable with basic carpentry? The bones of the layout are not difficult if you can work a chop saw, drill, screwdriver and soldering iron. It is the "art" part of the layout that takes practice. The good news is that if you do the benchwork and trackwork carefully, you can tear out the scenery and start over as often as you like.
I guess that makes #2 the best choice. Get one of the cad-like programs that's available and start drawing some plans. Some of them allow you to run trains on the plan. Take time and make sure you've got a good plan - you can even post it here and get tons of advice. Then jump in with both feet.
If you've built a layout before, you've already learned the most important lesson - there is no instant gratification. It takes a long time to build a layout.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Over the years I have done the 4x6 & 4x10x6 L shaped tables; 8x10 around the wall; modular, and currently a L shaped shelf layout. Some thoughts from that:
a. There is no such thing as a lifetime layout. Don't be afraid to change/modify/start over/whatever suits your sytle. Each time get's better so don't feel like it has to be perfect the first try.
b. The stereotypical and much malighed 4x8 can be a satisfying layout given you work within it's limitations rather than try to force it to be something it's not.
c. Modules (dominoes, whatever) can be good, but also a bit more challenging to build well if you really plan to move them around. Otherwise, they take a lot more material and work than standard construction techniques.
d. The 8x10 twice around with a center operating area was my favorite layout I built for several reasons. Had both switching and let 'em run.
e. Pure switching layouts can be fun if you have that interest, but are less motivating if you'd rather just run trains while destressing from the day without having to think about what you're doing.
f. Enjoy the process rather than the goal. Each part of a layout can be fun -- from the carpentry, structure building electrical, scenary, and ops. Keep it all in balance.
g. Accept the fact your first layout is just that -- the first, to learn from. Maybe it will be the center of an empire or maybe just a start. Just enjoy the journey.
jim
I am about 18 months into the hobby with no past experience. I tried starting with a larger layout (N-scale) and was quickly overwhelmed so I went with your first option. I am building a smal oval with a couple of turnouts to learn on and it was absolutely the right option for me. Mine is a stand-alone layout, no intent to incorporate it into a larger layout later. The advantage is I am free to make mistakes that do not become part of my "permanent" layout.
Welcome aboard!
My history is similar. I tore down my previous layout when I was 21, and I carried those boxes of trains around, never opened, for almost 40 years.
Looking at those 2 layouts, I woud go with the around-the-walls model. This has more operating potential, and it's easier to build in sections. And, I'll second Chuck's suggestion on the John Armstrong book. Read it, wait a while and read it again. It takes a while to digest.
I personally went with a light-frame benchwork and 2-inch insulation foam, the pink stuff from Home Depot. I went with DCC pretty much from the beginning, too. Both are "new technologies" compared to what was available when we were teens. And, I used a computer program to design my layout, again something new.
So, read and ask questions. You've come to the right place.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
The very first thing you should do is read a book - Track Planning for Realistic Operation, by John Armstrong. Our gracious hosts sell it for about the price of an HO freight car, and it's one of the best investments you'll ever make.
One trick, which the late Mr. Armstrong used frequently in his professional layout planning, is to design to build a large railroad in stages, with operation possible as soon as the main line of the first stage has been laid. I would suggest that you do the same - start with a part that will grow into your master plan.
In my own work, just as soon as there were a few lengths of flex on the first part of the roadbed I set a work train (two gons, a work caboose and a teakettle tank loco) on the rails, using it to carry track nails and rail joiners from the boxes at one end to the work site at the other. Granted that the rails were powered through temporary connections (alligator clips!) but having wheels rolling was a tremendous incentive to extending their range.
Two points, if I may, that are more mind set than work rules:
Good luck, and, above all, have fun.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - enjoying every minute of it)
I am returning to model railroading after a 28 year Hiatus. My last layout was torn down when I was 16 years old, and I am anxious to start a new one. It will model Northern Alberta Railways in 1978, and include interchange with Canadian National. HO scale. I have a 10' x 15' area in my basement ready to go, and will have room for further expansion if needed.
I am appealing to the forumites for advice on how to proceed in the very high level planning. I see really 3 options....
1. Start with a small layout to develop my skills and see if I really like the hobby as much as I did in the past. If so, I would probably start with something like this 5' x 9': http://www.layoutvision.com/gallery/id53.html
2. Just go ahead and begin with the layout I really want. Probably something similar to this 10' x 15': http://mrr.trains.com/how-to/track-plan-database/2011/12/wolverine-junction
3. Start with a small layout that would later be able to be expanded. Would require some additional planning on my part, but I think could be done.
I am very interested in the past experiences of the forum members, and what they did, and with their knowledge how would they do it again.
Thanks,
jeffrey