Recently embarked on the not-so-wonderful journey of ballasting track. Thinking it would save time, I decided to do a test section using Woodland Scenics scenic glue and a spray bottle as adhesive. After a number of things going horribly wrong, I am very displeased at how this section turned out. It looks sloppy. Unfortunately the adhesive is at the point where it is still too sticky to reshape and just sticks to anything it touches.
Once it dries, is there a good method for reshaping or going over this bad section? Or if worse comes to worse, removing most of it altogether? (Between the ties ballast looks fine, it's outside the rails that bugs me)
THANK YOU!
Acela (better yet just call me 'greenhorn'... sheesh!)
The timbers beneath the rails are not the only ties that bind on the railroad. --Robert S. McGonigal
I have found that it is possible to remove anything like this with a paint scrapper. Outside the rails but between ties use a small exacto cheisl.
I prefer to glue ballast with diluted white glue, pre-wetting with 50% isopropol achocol.
Dave
Before it completely hardens I'd try soaking it with alchol. Not sure if that will soften it or not, but I am quite sure that water will not.
Other option if it is not too thick, just add some more and make it look better.
Good luck,
Richard
WSScenic Cement is water soluable. Saturate it with "wet" water (water with a couple drops of dishwashing liquid added), let stand about 5 min, then work at it with a putty knife.
My personal opinion is that your biggest mistake was using a sprayer. Especially if you're using WS ballast, a sprayer just blows it around.
Apply the ballast dry, and shape it with a small foam applicator or soft brush. Find something to dribble adhesive on with. I use an old glue bottle, but bulb-type ear syringes and pipettes also work. First, apply diluted isopropyl alcohol (the 70% stuff you buy at the store, diluted 1:1 with water for a 35% concentration. Make sure the ballast is thoroughly saturated. Then, go back and apply thinned adhesive. I use acrylic matte medium diluted 1:4 with water).
The trick is, dribble your solutions on the ties, not the ballast, and have your dropper tip just short of touching the tie. This will keep most of the ballast where you put it. Both the alcohol and adhesive will wick through your ballast, locking everything in place.
When it's dry, if you have some holes, dribble a little more ballast in them, wet, and glue.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
That's one reason why I like to use matte medium for ballasting. I use a 4:1 ratio of water to matte medium. Before applying the matte medium mix, I spray the ballast with rubbing alcohol (70% isopropyl).
It is easy to remove the dried matte medium by wetting the area with 70% isopropyl alcohol.
Rich
Alton Junction
I use the 70% Isopropyl Alcohol straight to prewet the Ballest.
I then use White Glue thinned to 25% glue/water mix.
With this mix it dries in hours instead of taking a day !
BOB H - Clarion, PA
cmrproducts I use the 70% Isopropyl Alcohol straight to prewet the Ballest. I then use White Glue thinned to 25% glue/water mix. With this mix it dries in hours instead of taking a day ! BOB H - Clarion, PA
For removing ballast, I'll use a paint scraper, but also a dental pick. I got several old ones from my dentist for nothing. These things have a lot of MR uses.
I also use isopropyl alcohol straight from the bottle, and 1:4 glue mix.
And, I hate to say it, but I know from personal experience that ballasting is more than just finding the right glue mixture. There is some technique involved, too, and a learning curve. You're on it. Expect your ballasting to improve, but be prepared to try a few more times before you're really happy with it.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
For ballasting: After installing and shaping the ballast, (if there's no other scenery, structures, etc) I spray and soak the ballast with rubbing alcohol. Wait about 5 minutes, then dribble diluted white glue (4:1, water to glue) with a medicine dropper. If there is scenery or structures near the track I use the same medicine dropper to soak with alcohol, then dribble on the diluted glue.
For ballast removal: Since I use diluted white glue, I just soak it with a spray bottle, wait a few minutes, suck most of it up with a shop vac. I use acrylic caulk to affix my track in place, so, it's easily removed with a putty knife.
As for wet water, the "few drops of detergent" will depend on the hardness of your water. You could use bottled distilled water, which would require less detergent.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
CTValleyRRMy personal opinion is that your biggest mistake was using a sprayer. Especially if you're using WS ballast, a sprayer just blows it around.
Maybe. Depends on your technique. I only NOT use the spray bottle when doing small patch jobs or working directly on a turnout. Even the turnouts get sprayed when I make my first pass. And I use matte medium which is even less forgiving than white glue.
The secret?
91% alcohol.
Yep, same thing that most use at 70%. Some people even dilute their alcohol. Not sure that helps, though. What you want for prewetting is something that kills surface adhesion and then evaporates, leaving behind little of its own. That's where the 91% shines, as it evaporates much quicker than 70%. I don't use any other prewetting addditive, just the 91%.
Isn't that strong stuff dangerous?
Well, it doesn't hurt to have good ventilation,as it evaporates so rapidly. Keep it away from painted stuff, as it will mar some finishes. But that's usually not too hard to do.
The secret to spraying 91%, including to effectively pre-wet WS ballast? Use it in a spray bottle that will deliver a fine mist. This works best in general, as sometimes you only need a little. If you're getting droplets, try a better mister. It can still take a light touch with the WS ballast, but it works quite well once you get the first layer of mist on.
Try to do what you can to get your matte medium to mist, too. It's gunky, so never perfect, but I am able to fix WS quite effectively with this method. After the matte medium is sprayed down, give the rials a wipe with a paper twoel wrapped around a short section of 2x4 or whatever is handy. Then put a clean towel on, mist it with 91% and wipe the rails again. If you're careful, you have track virtually ready to go without further cleaning. If not, you may have a few spot cleans with a brightboy.
Turnouts should have the points taped to protect them. Helps to pre-oil and pivot rivets or joiners. Other than that, treat the like the rails. You may need a little piece of sheet metal to slip under the point rails to free them up in a few cases.For taking up matte medium ballast, mist with 91% until good and wet and wait about ten minutes. Using a stiff-bladed putty knife, slide it under the track and lift. Presuming you've pulled spikes and freed feeders, it'll be like butter.
Not sure how 91% will do with white glue, as I've never done that. Mist it with 91% to wet it, then soaking with water may end up using less water overall, which can be a factor.
Also, don't work too far ahead with 91%. It evaporates so quickly, you'll just waste it if you can't work fast enough to keep up with it.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
mlehman Even the turnouts get sprayed when I make my first pass. And I use matte medium which is even less forgiving than white glue. Turnouts should have the points taped to protect them. Helps to pre-oil and pivot rivets or joiners. Other than that, treat the like the rails. You may need a little piece of sheet metal to slip under the point rails to free them up in a few cases. For taking up matte medium ballast, mist with 91% until good and wet and wait about ten minutes. Using a stiff-bladed putty knife, slide it under the track and lift. Presuming you've pulled spikes and freed feeders, it'll be like butter.
Even the turnouts get sprayed when I make my first pass. And I use matte medium which is even less forgiving than white glue.
Turnouts should have the points taped to protect them. Helps to pre-oil and pivot rivets or joiners. Other than that, treat the like the rails. You may need a little piece of sheet metal to slip under the point rails to free them up in a few cases.
For taking up matte medium ballast, mist with 91% until good and wet and wait about ten minutes. Using a stiff-bladed putty knife, slide it under the track and lift. Presuming you've pulled spikes and freed feeders, it'll be like butter.
I generally agree with Mike on this one, but let me stress this. Be extremely cautious with matte medium around turnouts. As Mike said, oil the pivot points first to prevent the matte medium mix from penetrating any moving parts. On and around turnouts, I would never spray matte medium, rather, I use an eyedropper.
One other thing. Waiting ten minutes to remove the ballasted track is OK, but in my experience, it can be removed almost immediately.
richhotrainBe extremely cautious with matte medium around turnouts.
Absolutely. Spraying turnouts is a bit risky, but after a little practice I found I could give them just enough with the mister that the protection of the points and pivots works. I get about 10% that need a little more work, but generally find another hose down with 91% dissolves away the matte medium.
I would go with Rich's suggestion to use the eyedropper instead if you don't want to risk issues with misting. It doesn't take too much longer.
richhotrainWaiting ten minutes to remove the ballasted track is OK, but in my experience, it can be removed almost immediately.
True, most of the time it melts right away, but with deep ballast or straight matte medium holding things, it may take a little longer, so didn't want impatinence lead to bad results. In any case, probe a little with the putty knife and you'll know when it's ready to come up.
I want to reemphasize you must work quickly and not get too far ahead of yourself when spraying. The dry wipe follwed by the 91% wipe I described should be done immediately. The matte medium should be off the rails before it dries or you end up with needing to hit it with more 91% to clean.
Finally, I should've specified I dilute the matte medium I spray to 50/50 with water and always best to strain or decant the matte medium to keep the gunk in it out of your sprayer where it can lead to clogging.
mlehman I dilute the matte medium I spray to 50/50 with water and always best to strain or decant the matte medium to keep the gunk in it out of your sprayer where it can lead to clogging.
I dilute the matte medium I spray to 50/50 with water and always best to strain or decant the matte medium to keep the gunk in it out of your sprayer where it can lead to clogging.
Don't use a spray bottle for ballast, use a dropper of some type, you don't need the overspray. I use one more step in my ballast work. I outline the space for ballast with a bead of white glue and brush in some in the open tie space next to the throw bar on each side. I throw ballast on this. When dry I vacume up the excess and then I apply ballast and shape it with a foam brush, when the the look is exactly what I want I spray wet water and then use a droper to apply the Senic cement. No locked throws and real control.
Great idea in the glue "dikes."
rrebellDon't use a spray bottle for ballast, use a dropper of some type, you don't need the overspray.
To each his own. If your bottle is good and your aim is true, overspray is minimal. I tend to remove anything that could get harmed in any case. If there is a feature that can't be easily moved, I throw a newspaper or something else over it. I also use masking tape in tight quarters to limit overspray.
Note that with well over 100 turnouts, if I was gluing them all together, I'd would've stopped long ago. Instead, it's been a very minimal problem, which is what encouraged me after experimenting with it to speed things up. It's just another technique to consider if you have lots of track to cover.
LION uses cat litter to ballast the railroad of him. With 14 mils of track him not going to but stuff at $5/ounce!
LION uses GRAVITY to hold ballast in place, it has never failed my yet. Brush it aside and move the track. No problem.
LION not use cork roadbed, everything is flat ans so balast not roll off of ROW.
But then LIONS *are* diffrent, but you knew that!
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Mike -- I find 91% rubbing alcohol too caustic. It removes the weathering from my ties. It's also hard to find, at least in Connecticut.
Kitty litter for ballast is ok (I guess) if it's dry. If you get it wet, it clumps, and looks like, well, used kitty litter.
CTValleyRRMike -- I find 91% rubbing alcohol too caustic. It removes the weathering from my ties. It's also hard to find, at least in Connecticut.
I use ME weathered track. Prior to ballasting, I spray it with some sort of light tan, light gray, and dark gray combination. Some folks say use cheap paint for this, but it's always in the big can. I find that using TYestors or Model Masters in the small hobby cans keeps the spray close to the track and easier to control. It goes more tha far enough for the cost. I use the same block-of-wood-and-paper-towel trick to wipe the paint off, again not getting too far ahead so things start to dry before I get there.
Between what ME does and what I do, never had an issue with the alcohol. I still sometimes get that whiteness that matte medium sometimes works itself into, but find the 91% will usually take that down, too.
Maybe CT is afraid people are drinking the stuff and putting high taxes or something on it? Just kidding, not everyone carries it, but our grocery store does, although cost is about double 70%. The evaporation is so fast it works so well I don't use 70% for much of anything anymore.
I think Brother Lion doesn't allow cats in the train room.
I've never used ME flextrack. Hear lots of good things, though, and will probably try it on my next layput.
The white residue from matte medium is talc, which is used as a dulling agent. Try mixing a batch of the diluted stuff and letting it sit overnight. Most of the talc will settle to the bottom, and you can decant the liquid snd throw the talc away.
Thanks for the advice! On a seperate note, I used Woodland Scenics Track Bed instead of cork roadbed. (I laid my track many years ago, not thinking ahead) The roadbed is a very soft, spongy foam material. Does anyone have any experience ballasting track with this? Should I approach ballasting track differently?
Thanks,
Acela
Acela, my track is laid on Woodland Scenics Foam Track Bed. I use Woodland Scenics ballast on this foam track bed without any problems.
Lion You don't find problems ballast gets into your trains?
Joe Staten Island West
richhotrain Acela, my track is laid on Woodland Scenics Foam Track Bed. I use Woodland Scenics ballast on this foam track bed without any problems. Rich
150' of track on WS roadbed, ballasted with no trouble. Use the technique I described in my earlier post.
The most common cause of loose ballast is insufficient pre-wetting. While many modellers use alcohol or an alcohol/water mix, regular tap water (or, if your tap water is especially hard, distilled water, which is cheap and readily available at any supermarket. You could also use the water out of a dehumidifier, as long as you clean the collection bucket beforehand) with a few drops of dish detergent added, not only works well, but allows a longer working time, as it doesn't evapourate as quickly as alcohol.I apply the "wet" water using a good quality sprayer - the first few spritzes upwards, letting the droplets fall onto the ballast (or scenic material), then, once the area is wet, spray directly and generously. Continue spraying until the water begins seeping out the bottom of the deepest applications of ballast - if the water doesn't reach the cork/plywood/foam/etc., the glue will not reach it either, with the result being a solidly-glued crust atop loose ballast, with no adherence at all to the base.
Last night, I added ballast, real dirt, ground foam of various sizes, and static grass to an area of about 14 square feet. It took about four hours to apply, and when it's dry - maybe tonight or maybe tomorrow - I'll clean the static grass off the rails, then vacuum-up anything that's not glued down, which will likely be only the scraped-off static grass.
I would add some photos, but photobucket seems to be having some difficulties at this time.
Wayne
I use the drug store 70% isopropyl/water solution straight out of the bottle. I pre-wet (exceedingly important, as Dr. Wayne says), but I don't saturate the ballast. I just get the top third or so of the depth wet, and then I glue with a rather dilute solution of wood/yellow glue to six parts, or more, water, plus two or three drops of dish detergent.
(Handy tip: place three or four small clean pebbles in the bottom of your glue mix. Shaking it up before use takes but seconds this way.)
(Handy tip: You DID remember to close the cap/nib/nipple last time you used it.........yes?)
I don't saturate during gluing, either. I have found that, at least with washed sands of all kinds, if you just create a hardened shell that contains all of the grains below it, it works quite well, even for keeping the track curves in alignment. Later, if you need to soften the ballast to fix something, say a low outer rail on a supered curve, it just takes a quick dribble of water I always have handy in a jug, wait-two-three, and I can do what I need to do. To reharden it, I don't rely on what was there; I dribble on another bit of the diluted glue. What I use are the push-pull nib tops that some glues come with, or even a cleaned Sriracha bottle with the green twisty top. Twist just enough to get that controlled dribble out over the ballast to be glued when a full bottle is inverted and you're holding it with enough finger pressure to deform the plastic walls.