Following Prototype use, how do you justify any angle of track crossings? How are they used realistically?
Does it have to be 2 mainlines crossing?
Just thinking of adding at least one to my layout.
Prototype crossing can be just about any angle. I remember a Milwaukee Road spur into the Northfield, MN Malt O' Meal pant being crossed by a CGW mainline. The CGW had a crossing of two spurs at what is now the AMPI milk plant in Rochester, MN. As long as the mainline is 'protected by signals or stop signs, just about anything goes.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
They are all over the place. In this photo (lower right) a track crosses the road and then a track, ballooning out and back in to make the left turn.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
jrbernier Prototype crossing can be just about any angle. I remember a Milwaukee Road spur into the Northfield, MN Malt O' Meal pant being crossed by a CGW mainline. The CGW had a crossing of two spurs at what is now the AMPI milk plant in Rochester, MN. As long as the mainline is 'protected by signals or stop signs, just about anything goes. Jim
So you are saying basically "anything goes" with angled crossings?
No prototype rules?
On the left side, about halfway up you can see a 30 degree crossing. The main line loops around from right foreground to right background, with a pair of industries reached by crossing sidings on the left.
To tell the truth, I designed this just so I could use a crossing. I just think they look cool.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Yeah, definitely don't think mainline only. South of Bloomington, Indiana, and just west of Clear Creek, the Monon and Illinois central both had branches that ran into the quarry district. They crossed, protected only the swinging stop sign that Jim B. mentioned. Not much more too it than that.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I have put in several Industrial sidings on my layout - that I would NOT have been able to do if I did NOT use a 25 degree crossing!
I did not have the length between the 2 switches a Left & Right and by off setting the 2 switches and running the sidings through a crossing I was able to add these 2 Industries where by not using the crossing - only 1 Industry could have been added - due to the lack of space!
Also - when I added more trackwork in my Office - and coming out of the Office with the mainline - Initialy I had the 2 mainline tracks come together!
As the amount of trains were developed the Office trains would have to wait for the one mainline train to complete its switching so the other train could go to the yard to drop its cars!
By adding 2 more crossings - a 25 degree and a 12 degree - I was able to add a second mainline and the Office trains could just use the new mainline and eliminate the wait!
So any place I can use a Crossing - I will - as I do in using double curved turnouts at the ends of Yards to add siding length as well as smoothing out the end curves that a straight turnout would introduce unwanted qinks in the trackwork as well as unrealistic curves!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
There's not really a "justify." They do what they have to do. That's what justifies it. They do try to avoid them because they're expensive to maintain.
Here's a classic model railroad two spurs cross use.
Think like a civil engineer or a railroad executive. Complicated trackwork is expensive to build and maintain. The pros wouldn't install crossings at grade unless they had a compelling reason to do so. Bridges would be even more expensive. The same effect could possibly be achieved with two wye turnouts with points facing each other. But switches involve curves that might not be desired, and they require somebody to throw them. Two turnouts would also require more space. Sometimes at-grade crossings are the most efficient, inexpensive way to get the job done. Your model railroad installation should look like the civil engineers took all these factors, and more, into account.
It's all about making something work, within the limitations of the circumstances. The full size prototypes that inspire whay we do as modelers, will do almost anything within reason to service a multiple carload customer. They have limitations on capital construction costs, and so do we. They have limitations of landscape and geography to contend with-and so do we, with the additional obstacle of having an edge to fall off of to the floor. With that in mind, and a kit bashed version of the old Goerge Roberts printing plant to install and service, I moved a section of mainline closer to fall off the earth territory-creating room for the needed spur, spliced a 15 degree crossing into a reverse loop. Solved all the limitation problems, and went nuts for a very long time getting that combination to run smoothly.
I trust that yours will be easier to work with, from installation to regular service.
Don H.
Don:
Sounds like a great recipe for going nuts!
In my layout plan I have a Peco long crossing where the line from my yard to my engine service facility crosses the main line. Fouling the main line is not ideal but the geometry didn't allow for any other solution without creating S curves and tight radii. At least it will only be engines and a few coal/ash cars crossing the main. Having the crossing, like others have said, adds interest to operations.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
You need to look no further than Alton Junction at 21st Street in Chicago.
It even had curved crossings.
Here is a link to a discussion of the crossings at Alton Junction.
http://www.dhke.com/CRJ/21street.html
Rich
Alton Junction
Good responses so far!
I've had layouts since the 1950s, and always thought a crossing would be "sooo cool". But no matter how I worked it, I never could come up with one that made sense or that looked like it belonged.
My thought is, the larger the layout the easier it would be to put one in and make it work.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Looking at "all things railroad" they will do what they must do to get the job done and let the accountants figure a way to get the upkeep costs back in tax write offs or in some cases operating grants from the State or Feds...
That method has worked since steel wheels started rolling on steel rail.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Big Boy Forever So you are saying basically "anything goes" with angled crossings? No prototype rules?
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
richhotrain Big Boy Forever So you are saying basically "anything goes" with angled crossings? No prototype rules? Anything goes!
Anything goes!
Within operation, saftey and FRA rules.
Cover those and you are correct.
This is one of Richhotrain's favorite rail junctions in Chicago:
How about it RICH?
Take Care!
Frank
Btw: I know You already posted this Rich, But I'm curious if you ever tried to replicate part of it. I recall some time ago, that you were considering it.
zstripe This is one of Richhotrain's favorite rail junctions in Chicago: How about it RICH? Take Care! Frank
Here are some examples of different crossings.
1. https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.6672183,-79.4599255,19z
This is where the CP tracks (east-west) cross the old CN tracks (north-south) at the West Toronto Diamond. The surrounding neighbourhood is appropriately called "the juction".
2. https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.6687403,-79.4614862,19z
Scroll a bit north an we will find another crossing where a CP track from the east side crosses the old CN tracks to connect to a CP track from the west side to make a wye and start the Mactier Subdivision.
Unfortunately for railfans, both crossings are undergoing a grade seperation project and will not be around for much longer. GO Transit operates on the old CN tracks and is getting funding from the province to upgrade its system. More pics and info here: http://www.gotransit.com/gts/en/project/wtd.aspx
3. https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.8104553,-79.5109088,18z
Google maps is showing that there was some sort of turn around track or baloon track going through or under the central hump in CN's Macmillan yard in Vaughan, Ontario. If you switch to Earth/Satellite view you can see that there are no tracks where the line on the map is. When the crossing did exist (if it existed) it may have been grade seperated as you can see the bridge in hump. The bridge looks a bit large for a small access road.
Not quite anything goes.
If the crossing is on a main track there has to be some method of protecting the crossing. One person had a crossing where his shortline crossed a class 1 railroad, it was protected by a gate. It was normally lined for the class 1 and against the shortline. If the shortline wanted to cross the gate had to be swung over the class 1 and then returned to clear the class 1 after the short line train cleara the diamond. The catch was that he lived next to a busy 1:1 main line. So anytime you heard a train going by you couldn't line the gate, you had to wait for the "class 1 train" to pass before you could line the gate for shortline movement.
A lot of shallow angle diamonds are being replaced by a pair of switches. Switches are cheaper to maintain and repair. Diamonds are almost all custom trackwork ordered specifically for a certain location. Relplacing one may take months to order, fabricate, deliver and install.
Diamonds are usually speed restricted and on many roads a diesel engine can't be pulling power over a diamond (the shock going through the frog can damage traction motor brushes.)
They are an big maintenance headache and where they can be retired they will be. For example it was cheaper for a road to pay for trackage rights (and ultimately buy) a more ciruitous route through a city than it was to maintain the multiple diamonds on a direct route.
Dave,Multi-crossings is a necessary evil and most can not be changed or by passed-Marion and Fostoria are prime examples NS(exNKP) double track main line crosses CSX twice and CSX(exB&O) crosses CSX(exC&O) both of these CSX tracks are double main lines.The only speed restriction over the diamonds is speed restriction through the city of Fostoria or Marion.
Maybe I can just be a bit like an elephant and work for peanuts...hmmmm....The important thing is that despite all of the headaches and tweaking needed to make all the new connections, eventually I had a spur that is easily serviced by either a tackmobile or an 0-4-0 docksider without disrupting either the mainline(relocated) or the reversing loop. Figuring ways to make my skills match the needs of my little piece of model railroading delight is a very satisfying aspect of this hobby.
It sounds like you came up with a very effective solution. It would be interesting to see a track plan and/or some photos.
I agree that accomplishing something like that can be very satisfying. In fact I think that almost all model railroaders feel the same way. That's one of the things that makes the hobby so great - it isn't a piece of cake, you have to work at it. When you finally get it right you feel good despite all the "#$%^&*#@$%#$" getting there.
Big Boy ForeverNo prototype rules?
The general prototype rule of "don't put in special work if it can be avoided" will always apply. Crossing frogs are a maintenance headache compared to straight rail for any railroad!
Grade separation at a crossing is another option which some railroads preferred whereever there was adequate space to do it.
Software ToolsThe general prototype rule of "don't put in special work if it can be avoided" will always apply. Crossing frogs are a maintenance headache compared to straight rail for any railroad!
Only in the minds of modelers that seems to fail to understand a little used diamond doesn't require the same maintenance as a mainline diamond.
Also consider a switch has moving parts that needs maintained as well.
BRAKIE Software Tools The general prototype rule of "don't put in special work if it can be avoided" will always apply. Crossing frogs are a maintenance headache compared to straight rail for any railroad! Only in the minds of modelers that seems to fail to understand a little used diamond doesn't require the same maintenance as a mainline diamond. Also consider a switch has moving parts that needs maintained as well.
Software Tools The general prototype rule of "don't put in special work if it can be avoided" will always apply. Crossing frogs are a maintenance headache compared to straight rail for any railroad!
Trackage such as Alton Junction in Chicago required special work because it couldn't be avoided.
richhotrain"only if it can be avoided" - - - the critical operative words. Trackage such as Alton Junction in Chicago required special work because it couldn't be avoided. Rich
If most modelers would explore while out railfaning they would see some rather interesting industrial track mazes and that is my point..
One can't fully depend on what the layout "experts" say in their books because most lacks basic railroad knowledge..
In Columbus,Ohio PRR had a industry that was around a very sharp curve(think 14" curve in HO) and we used idler cars to reach round the curve and that curve had a 5 mph restriction plus we had to watch the trains wheels for any signs of derailments.
BTW..This curve was restricted to 40' boxcars..Imagine our shock when we seen a 50' boxcar bound that that industry..The car never left the yard since the conductor caught the mistake when he looked over the waybills and switch list.
Our first switch move of the day was to switch that car out and place it on a yard track after the conductor advised the YM of the problem and got the YM permission to do so.