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On30 vs HO in the same space: The final decision needs to be made.

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Posted by narrow gauge nuclear on Monday, January 20, 2014 1:42 PM

Any narrow gauge work other than Colorado will require some modification of Blackstone locos or the use of older HOn3 brass (which is plunging in price).  The older brass has a number of different wheel groups in HOn3, from 4-4-0 on up!

Are there any of your Road specific engines in On30?  Narrow gauge, even today, does demand some handiwork to be worked into your efforts.  There are no Atlantic and Danville or Surry, Sussex and Southampton narrow gauge engines nor are their ever likely to be.  But with pre-existing old brass in its varied wheel groups and some handiwork, you can make older narrow gauge brass into most any narrow gauge engine you choose.  Fourtunately, most of these smaller roads never had more than 5 engines so the idea of a vast N.G. empire around smaller N.G. roads is just not in the cards.  That's the draw of the narrow gauge.

I am planning on doing a major cutup job on one of my Blackstone 27's to make a custom engine out of it.  It will hurt with each stoke of the saw, but it will be done and I have already reworked one old brass HOn3 loco to be what I wanted it to be.

One of the hardest things I had to learn when choosing narrow gauge is that there was just no need for a big roster of anything, be it locos, freight or passenger. 5-10 car hops were about it, unless you were indeed modeling the D&RGW where 20 or more cars were often seen with double heading being common in the heyday and two named passenger trains were seen. 

Richard

Richard

If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed

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Posted by NevinW on Friday, January 17, 2014 6:18 PM

While I think you have a very valid point about Blackstone making such good and good running HOn3 models that it makes HOn3 a serious contender for anyone considering narrow gauge, there is only one problem: It is all Colorado. With the exception of that neat little 2-8-0 with the diamond stack, everything that they have done has been strictly Rio Grande or Rio Grande Southern. I don't anyone else had much in the way of K-28s or K-36's. So as neat as those engines are, I model Nevada/California roads.

If Blackstone announced that they were coming out with either a generic 4-4-0 or 2-6-0 or SP # 8,9,and 18 in HOn3 with their running qualities and sound, I would be switching to HOn3 immediately and modeling either SPNG or C&C or E&P. I'm not sure that is going to happen soon. - Nevin

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Posted by narrow gauge nuclear on Friday, January 17, 2014 3:59 PM

Also, other than a ton of old HOn3 brass out there, Blackstone in 2014 will release two new locos of the same high quality and brass price lowering variety like they did with the C-19 and K-27.  They will push the much desired K-28 "sports model" onto the HOn3 rails as well as the much in use today, K-36.  Leaving only the K-37 yet to be modeled in D&RGW 20th century locos by Blackstone.  Again, HOn3 has more available to a would-be Narrow gauge modeler in the way of loco's and rolling stock than any other scale.  Plus all HO buildings, figures and cars are much less expensive than O gauge materials

Richard

If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed

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Posted by vsmith on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 5:34 PM

Personally.... On30 anyday of the week. More details, cooler looking models, easier to handle and you can go nuts detailing things like interiors and such. 

   Have fun with your trains

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Posted by fwright on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 2:49 PM

IRONROOSTER

Other than Blackstone's Mikados and Consolidations for Denver & Rio Grande, what HOn3 locomotives are being made?

Just curious

Paul 

Paul

PSC recently released some Shays (very beautiful and very spendy).  And David Hoffman has produced a few locos (geared and rod) in the past few years.  Otherwise, you are correct - Blackstone pushed almost all new HOn3 loco production out of the market.

Fortunately, for cheapskates like me, Blackstone drove down the price of used HOn3 brass, of which there is quite a bit of stock available.  And there are also the MDC Shays, and outside and inside frame 2-8-0s, of which there is quite a bit of old new and used stock.  Finally, there were the Keystone Shays and NWSL motorizing kits.  In general, all of the non-Blackstone options require work to run well (I have heard of, but not seen any exceptions).

The Blackstone C-19 is actually closer to most non-Colorado 2-8-0s than the MDC inside frame 2-8-0 if one is into bashing.  And I'm willing to bet that a "generic" C-16 would become Blackstone's all time best-seller.  Obviously, Blackstone disagrees.

For the record, I believe I am the only member of our HOn3 modular club without a Blackstone loco to his name.  Our setups run primarily with Blackstone power.  I have an MDC inside-frame 2-8-0, FED 2-6-0 (working on acquiring a 4-4-0), Kidder 0-4-0T, and two Keystone Shays - and only one of these locos cost more than $100 to buy.

just my thoughts and experiences

Fred W

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Posted by IRONROOSTER on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 1:53 PM

narrow gauge nuclear

... Plus, On30 doesn't have the ... variety of engines extant that HOn3 does. 

Richard

 

Other than Blackstone's Mikados and Consolidations for Denver & Rio Grande, what HOn3 locomotives are being made?

Just curious

Paul

If you're having fun, you're doing it the right way.
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Posted by hobo9941 on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 9:54 PM

HO offers a much greater selection of equipment and products. Just my opinion.

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Posted by rrebell on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 2:03 PM

First off, add in some cut off corners so the corner curves can be more gradual (it will not affect the walkway space if you size it right. If you want to model the desert like you said, go On30, the scenery I have seen in real life on my trips to Vegas from SF look like a model railroad in real life, very short tunnels, and for a railroad steep grades and tight turns.

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Posted by narrow gauge nuclear on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 11:44 AM

I'm with Mike and FWRight.  I went with HOn3 gauge as I had a ton of HO scale figures, structures, trucks and cars and such that would transfer.  HO scale will allow more track work.  About the only thing I see in On30 gauge is you can use HO track and the rolling stock is larger and easier to see and work with.  Otherwise, all O scale figures and buildings are large and somewhat costly. (that may not figure into your effort if you are willing to spend).  Plus, On30 doesn't have the number of detailed cars and variety of engines extant that HOn3 does.  Much depends on how closely to prototype you wish to model.  Again, your decision.

Richard

Richard

If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed

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Posted by IRONROOSTER on Monday, January 13, 2014 8:18 PM

Go with On30.  The trains are a pleasant size to view and work with, about the same size as S scale. You can choose smaller O structures since this can be backwoods/desert kind of modeling where big buildings are rare.  They would still be bigger than HO for pleasant modeling.

HO is small to work with and the trains are hard to see.

Good luck

Paul

If you're having fun, you're doing it the right way.
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Posted by fwright on Monday, January 13, 2014 1:22 PM

When I considered whether to use O/On30 or HO/HOn3 about 12 years ago, I ended up starting from scratch with HOn3 for the following reasons:

  • size of trees.  Death Valley doesn't have a lot of trees, but consider that in O scale an actual 12" tree model only represents a 48ft tall tree (87ft in HO).  Most of the logging in the Pacific Northwest doesn't deal with many trees that are less than 60ft tall.  It's difficult to convey an idea of the scale of the operation when the trees have to be truncated so badly.  Similar scale issues arose for even small creeks, trestles, and culverts.  Again, not an issue for Death Valley, but it was for coastal Oregon.
  • size of buildings.  An O scale model 12" actual on a side is a 48 x 48 ft building - almost 2500 sq ft.  Depending on the era modeled, this could be acceptable, or not even close.  Scale out a water tower or a refueling oil tank.
  • as was pointed out, you may not have enough horizontal clearance between tracks for On30.  Whereas HOn3 will easily fit in the existing HO track spacing, and look prototypically spread out.  You will also have more cars in the train than either the HO or On30 version.
  • Dual gauge track will not look right in O/On30 because of the erroneous gauges for both standard and 3ft gauge.  Dual gauge track in O/On30 looks remarkably like a more to scale version of Lionel 3 rail track.
  • HO track does not look like O narrow gauge track should.  Ties are too short, too narrow, and too closely spaced.  One "solution" is to bury the ties in the scenery (not ballast), but many 3ft prototypes (especially in the West) did not have the ties buried in the mud.

On the flip side of the argument, On30 has a lot more locomotives, locomotive donor mechanisms, and better running locomotives (usually at lower prices) than HOn3.  Unless you are using Blackstone locos in HOn3 (limited to 3-4 different models of D&RGW prototypes), you will have to tinker with the mechanism to get it to run well.

my thoughts, your choices

Fred W

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Posted by alco_fan on Sunday, January 12, 2014 8:44 PM

The existing sections of your HO layout with parallel tracks may not have enough clearance for On30. That could be a lot of rework if they already have ballast and scenery.

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Posted by gandydancer19 on Sunday, January 12, 2014 6:16 PM

I would go with the On30.  The reason?  You talk more about how much you love the desert and the prototype NG RR versus the HO one.  The larger On30 would be easier on the eyes as well.

Elmer.

The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.

(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.

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Posted by mlehman on Sunday, January 12, 2014 1:37 PM

You can do wonders with flats and otehr methods to squeeze in buildings. But that is a big drawback if you like big buildings. If the prototype had few of these, you're good there.

If you like to build and wnat to keep active doing so as the years go by, then that's a big factor, too. I've got similar issues, but am sticking with HOn3, because I have so much done. In your case, that's a different calculus, as you still need to build a lot. Which is a good thing, so long as you take account of your comfort level with the small stuff.

Mike Lehman

Urbana, IL

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Posted by NevinW on Sunday, January 12, 2014 12:52 PM

cacole

That decision should be one that you alone make, without asking for other people's opinion.

If you go by what other people think you should do, you're likely to regret it in the future.

Of course it is my decision.  I'd just like to hear what others think of the two designs.  For example, if someone sees a fatal flaw in the On30 design for the size of space I have available, it would be useful information.  Those shelves of mine are only 16 inches wide, I don't know for sure that any O scale buildings can fit in that space without looking goofy.  If someone has done it and had no problems that would be helpful.  Ultimately it will be me that pulls the trigger on one of the designs.  

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Posted by cacole on Sunday, January 12, 2014 11:41 AM

That decision should be one that you alone make, without asking for other people's opinion.

If you go by what other people think you should do, you're likely to regret it in the future.

 

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On30 vs HO in the same space: The final decision needs to be made.
Posted by NevinW on Sunday, January 12, 2014 11:35 AM

The benchwork and the room are now complete and I either continue in HO with my Tonopah and Tidewater RR which I have been modeling for 7 years or jump to On30 and model a version of the Death Valley RR in the same space.  I really love Nevada railroad history and the desert and love prototype modeling.  I really love to build things: structures, and models.  The engines, rolling stock and buildings are complete for the HO version, all I have to do is put thiem on the layout once the track is re-laid.  On the other hand I really love narrow gauge and have modeled in Sn3 and HOn3 in the past.  I'm in my 50's and my eyesight is going down hill too.  I'd like to know what everyone else thinks, what the the pros and cons for the two designs and then I'll make a final decision.  (the problem with the door isn't fixable) Here are the two versions:

 

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