I'm getting to the point where I start laying track soon on those sections that I am revising. My layout is built on a 2 inch layer of pink foam. I used cork for the previous version and it worked ok but on the foam is was a bit louder thant I would prefer. I used Woodland Scenics on a previous layout and it worked ok too. I am thinking about vinyl this time for more sound deadening. http://www.hobbyinnovations.com/Page1.html. I've used homasote in ther past but I am not doing any handlaying of track and it is hard to get.
Any opinions, especially about the vinyl? thanks - Nevin
The type of ballast glue you use also plays a factor in how loud the trains are on a foam layout surface. If you use white glue, it will dry rock hard and negate the properties of the WS foam roadbed or vinyl roadbed and transmit the sound directly to the layout base. Mod Podge or Matt Medium does not dry rock hard but retains a rubbery flexible property that does not transmint the sound from the track to the foam surface of the layout as much.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
In addition to Elmer/Gandydancer's point about very hard ballast making for more noise, it seems to me that many of the foam layouts I have visited seem noisy in general. I am not sure why that should be so and perhaps it has to be with how the foam is mounted or contained. But if you drum your fingertips on a loose piece of thick foam it seems to amplify the noise.
Dave Nelson
Yes, all true. I found foam to be noisy, but relatively quiet using cork roadbed in the only place I used it on my last layout, and that was inside a long tunnel behind the depot on the yard section. I found it to be quiet. Why? I adhered it using caulking. As so many of us find, and have relayed to builders on these forums, acrylic latex caulk is a great sound-deadening medium. It doesn't dry so hard, like the liquid white and yellow gues, that it acts like a piece of glass.
However, while it may be dead quiet when you test it that way, as soon as you harden your ballast, you'll have noisier rails once again. Ideally, we'd find a glue that never hardens so much that it turns to glass as well. Maybe matte medium is a better choice, although I hear it doesn't soften again by wetting if you need to perform repairs.
-Crandell
Hmm, I need to add that Flexxbed to the things to test.
So far I am very impressed by Homabed, problem seems to be in actually getting an order, it takes along time, one-man band and the owner has some health issue. Even though I don't intend to hand lay anything (and if I did, it would be soldered to PCB ties, not spiked), it seems to dampen noise quite nicely, they have switch pads for most major brands, and they have a more realistic 60 degree slope version.
Anything I use, pretty much guarantee I will be attaching it to the subroadbed with caulk, and attaching the track to the roadbed with caulk.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I used Homabed and agree with Randy. It's a fine product. However, I spiked the track because it is easy to do and very easy to make changes and adjustments.
Dante
P.S. I use Walthers/Shinohara track and turnouts which are prepared for spiking and look very good.
The sound has to do with the space under the layout!!!!!!!!!
Not to take over the thread, but I have some closely related questions to those experienced with Homabed.
Years back I was very disatisfied with cork and bought a sheet of homasote and made my own roadbed since it took spikes and nails so much better. Flash forward 25 years... since homasote is not readily available anymore I placed an order for enough Homabed for about 1/3 of the total track plan for my new layout. But after waiting for months and hearing about the use of caulk I went ahead and bought a box of cork roadbed. I found that using caulk instead of spikes the cork works quite nicely. Then my Homabed order finally arrived. So now I will switch over to Homabed for the next phase of my layout (and we will see which I like better and which is quieter!)
I have been painting the cork with latex paint that closely matches my ballast color before laying track. Partially to seal it, but mostly to keep any spots not covered completely by ballast from showing. This has worked well. Can I paint the Homasote the same way? Also what do you do about the kerfs on curves? Should the kerfs be filled with something, or just lay the ballast down and let it fill any voids? And any concerns soaking with alcohol for ballasting? I used wet water with the homasote "back then" but the alcohol soak works sooo much better.
I will do some testing on the bench first, but some up-front advice would be helpful.
Huntington Junction - Freelance based on the B&O and C&O in coal country before the merger... doing it my way. Now working on phase 3. - Walt
For photos and more: http://www.wkhobbies.com/model-railroad/
My HO scale layout is built on 1/2" plywood. My roadbed is Woodland Scenics Foam Track-Bed. The ballast is Woodland Scenics Medium.
I use a water/matte medium mix to glue down my ballast. I use matte medium because years ago, the guys in my LHS told me that it was quieter than Elmer's Glue.
In my experience, the sound is minimal when the ballast is applied but not glued. In fact, unglued ballast provides neary silent operation. However, after the water/ mattte medium mix has been applied and dried, the layout is quite noisy. If matte medium is quieter than Elmer's Glue, I cannot imagine how noisy the white glue must be.
Alton Junction
HObbyguy Not to take over the thread, but I have some closely related questions to those experienced with Homabed. Years back I was very disatisfied with cork and bought a sheet of homasote and made my own roadbed since it took spikes and nails so much better. Flash forward 25 years... since homasote is not readily available anymore I placed an order for enough Homabed for about 1/3 of the total track plan for my new layout. But after waiting for months and hearing about the use of caulk I went ahead and bought a box of cork roadbed. I found that using caulk instead of spikes the cork works quite nicely. Then my Homabed order finally arrived. So now I will switch over to Homabed for the next phase of my layout (and we will see which I like better and which is quieter!) I have been painting the cork with latex paint that closely matches my ballast color before laying track. Partially to seal it, but mostly to keep any spots not covered completely by ballast from showing. This has worked well. Can I paint the Homasote the same way? Also what do you do about the kerfs on curves? Should the kerfs be filled with something, or just lay the ballast down and let it fill any voids? And any concerns soaking with alcohol for ballasting? I used wet water with the homasote "back then" but the alcohol soak works sooo much better. I will do some testing on the bench first, but some up-front advice would be helpful.
I used Homabed and as I said before, it is a fine product. I did as the Homabed instructions recommend: fill the kerfs, nail holes and similar breaks in the surface with drywall joint compound and sand smooth. Paint with latex paint. I haven't ballasted yet, so I am not sure about the alcohol, but you could experiment on a small sample of roadbed.
I have used the vinyl bed and was very happy with it. I used it on our display layout because there is a section of track that is visible on a shelf behind the layout. I chose vinyl since this section of track wasn't going to be ballasted and I liked the grey speckled appearance better than anything else.
That said, I ran into two small issues:
1. When I last ordered it, you had to order a case at a time. That's no problem if you are building a large layout. But mine is pretty small and I ended up being one piece short. I can't recall the exact details, but I think it would have been pretty expensive to order just one or two extra pieces. Instead I ended up finding someone on a forum who had a few extra pieces on had. So if things are still the same, you need to make sure you order enough unlike what I did.
2. I found that the texture (or softness) varies from batch to batch. Or at least it did in my case. I'm just guessing that it's due to the recycled vinyl varying slightly. However, that didn't have any effect on the layout and it looks just as good now as it did when I built it about nine years ago. The ballast holds well to the vinyl. The vinyl is also easy to work with and doesn't crumble. But since it is vinyl, it is a little rubbery when you cut it.
Overall, I've been quite happy with it and would use it again. Although, as mentioned, I used white glue to ballast the track and it did dry quite hard which amplifies noise. So I can't really comment on it reducing sound levels since that wasn't the reason I chose it.
Jim
richhotrain My HO scale layout is built on 1/2" plywood. My roadbed is Woodland Scenics Foam Track-Bed. The ballast is Woodland Scenics Medium. I use a water/matte medium mix to glue down my ballast. I use matte medium because years ago, the guys in my LHS told me that it was quieter than Elmer's Glue. In my experience, the sound is minimal when the ballast is applied but not glued. In fact, unglued ballast provides neary silent operation. However, after the water/ mattte medium mix has been applied and dried, the layout is quite noisy. If matte medium is quieter than Elmer's Glue, I cannot imagine how noisy the white glue must be.
I used cork or no roadbed on 3/4" plywood subroadbed, with WS fine ballast. The area where the ballast is affixed with matte medium is no quieter than the areas done with white glue, but it cost a lot less to use white glue, so most of the layout was done with it. I don't find the no-roadbed area to be especially noisy, either, but I don't run a lot of cars with metal wheels - noise is one of the reasons for that.
Wayne
In the 70's there were speakers on the market, that had an unusal capability of sound reproduction,for a small thin enclosure. There were two speakers inside, one Piezo Tweeter, one 5 inch Mid-range, mounted and glued to one inch foam in a plastic resin enclosure, the foam Amplified the Amplitude of the speakers sound waves, thus sounding like it was a much larger system. so I'm pretty sure you will experience the same when using foam as a subroad bed, unless of course, you would cover the under side of the layout with some sort of sound deadening material like car rubberized undercoating, which is messy and stinky to put on. Which to me raises another interesting point. My roadbed is too noisy, but I run five sound engines at once, with all metal wheel sets, how can I get my roadbed quieter? Somehow I have a hard time understanding that. Probably is just My belief in how sound travels.
I prefer 1/2 ply with 1/2 Homosote, fortunately I live in a area where I can get it. But I really don't need anymore, this layout will be my last hurrah!
Frank
doctorwayne richhotrain My HO scale layout is built on 1/2" plywood. My roadbed is Woodland Scenics Foam Track-Bed. The ballast is Woodland Scenics Medium. I use a water/matte medium mix to glue down my ballast. I use matte medium because years ago, the guys in my LHS told me that it was quieter than Elmer's Glue. In my experience, the sound is minimal when the ballast is applied but not glued. In fact, unglued ballast provides neary silent operation. However, after the water/ mattte medium mix has been applied and dried, the layout is quite noisy. If matte medium is quieter than Elmer's Glue, I cannot imagine how noisy the white glue must be. I used cork or no roadbed on 3/4" plywood subroadbed, with WS fine ballast. The area where the ballast is affixed with matte medium is no quieter than the areas done with white glue, but it cost a lot less to use white glue, so most of the layout was done with it. I don't find the no-roadbed area to be especially noisy, either, but I don't run a lot of cars with metal wheels - noise is one of the reasons for that. Wayne
I agree with Wayne about the matte medium. It is four times the cost of white glue and no quieter.
Like Wayne, whose advice I followed when ballasting my coach yard, track on plywood with a light layer of fine ballast is very quiet.
Rich
Thank you everyone for your thoughts as my track is loud too (glued down cork and WS foam). Is the summary of the posts that you should just use white glue and cork and accept the noise or are people saying to use homasote or homabed as that will address the issue? Many thanks.
Christian
For the sake of a quieter layout, does this mean I can apply loose ballast on my track and not glue it? Won't pieces drift, clog turnouts, and get sucked into gear towers? Anyone who has tried it please respond.
My rolling stock is Athearn BB with plastic wheels.
Yes you can skip gluing the ballast, and yes it will get all over the place. I haven't tried it on purpose, but did put different ballasts down on short sections without gluing just to evaluate the look and left it there for a while. It gradually spread all over the place exposing the roadbed until I finally vacuumed it up. Not recommended.
I've got a loop now that is about 1/3 ballasted (white glue on cork), 1/3 not ballasted but track glued down with caulk, and 1/3 with the track just stuck down with a bit of double-sided carpet tape. This is all on 1/2" ply subroadbed.
The track that is not glued down is extremely quiet. Where the track is glued but not ballasted it is noticably more noisy. But to be honest I can't hear a signficant difference on the section that has been ballasted and the track that is just glued down and not ballasted yet. So if using cork I doubt the ballasting glue selected makes that much of a difference. Now if the roadbed used is itself a very good sound-deadener then maybe the glue might make a difference.
The layout room finish is probably a factor too. Mine is carpeted with a very tight nylon loop with a popcorn ceiling, and the noise level is acceptable. If the layout was on a bare concrete floor and without a finished ceiling it might be a different story.
The locomotive power also seems to make a difference. The ballasted track is actually pretty quiet running my diesels, even with two in a consist. At the other extreme double-heading steam locos results in noticable track noise even though they are speed-matched.
It sounds like I need to dig up the instructions provided for my homabed. And I'll try a test section in the shop before putting any down on the layout.
Mister Mikado For the sake of a quieter layout, does this mean I can apply loose ballast on my track and not glue it? Won't pieces drift, clog turnouts, and get sucked into gear towers? Anyone who has tried it please respond. My rolling stock is Athearn BB with plastic wheels.
For the most part, my ballast is glued down. However, I have one 9 foot section in a difficult area to reach that I ballasted but never glued down. It is the most quiet portion of the entire layout, and I have never had a problem with loose ballast fouling up anything.
Plastic wheels on rolling stock will result in quieter performance, but the real culprits are the locomotives and, of course, they all have metal wheels. Heavier parts of the train, like locomotives, add considerably to the noise level.
Hi,
I'm now going thru ballasting on my 11x15 HO layout and trying various products and methods. Previously the question of "gluing" came up and it got me to wondering. I've always glued down ballast before, but I'm asking myself if its really necessary everywhere.
I can see doing it along the layouts edge or near turnouts and the like, but for those long stretches on the far reaching parts of the layout, it just doesn't seem necessary.
I do believe non glued ballast will give you a bit less noise, and of course you can easily remove and reuse the trackage without ballast sticking all over it.
As far as loose particles getting swept up into the locos, if the ballast is put down only "tie high", that should not be an issue.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Based on my unintentional testing, the ballast between the rails is not a problem. Just sitting on the caulk used to glue the track down it eventually sticks there anyway. Its the ballast on the smooth sides of the roadbed that wants to slide off exposing the roadbed edges and getting into the scenery. Maybe glue ballast onto the sides to keep it put there and then add it to the top and between the rails loose? Might be best of both worlds? Thinking about it this may be a really good idea for bridge approaches.
There were two extensive threads on another website dealing with issues of foam noise. The general conclusions were that:
The main point is that decoupling elements from one another leads to the biggest reduction in sound (I quess this would imply making sure any glued ballast does not touch the foam, and probably should'nt touch sub-roadbed).
Co-owner of the proposed CT River Valley RR (HO scale) http://home.comcast.net/~docinct/CTRiverValleyRR/
Maybe I missed it, but I don't think anybody has mentioned the tape that is used to seal the joint between a truck bed and the camper cap that goes on top. MR had an article a few years ago which featured several experiments that a fellow did on sound-deadening roadbed. Can't find the article at the moment. The tape scored pretty high for sound-deadening. I have no idea how it compares with more conventional methods when it comes to cost, amount of flex under the weight of a train, etc.
gandydancer19 The type of ballast glue you use also plays a factor in how loud the trains are on a foam layout surface. If you use white glue, it will dry rock hard and negate the properties of the WS foam roadbed or vinyl roadbed and transmit the sound directly to the layout base. Mod Podge or Matt Medium does not dry rock hard but retains a rubbery flexible property that does not transmint the sound from the track to the foam surface of the layout as much.
I agree about the white glue. Cork on plywood is quiet until I ballast with 50/50 white glue and water, then it's loud. It doesn't bother me much.
Modeling the N&W freelanced at the height of their steam era in HO.
Daniel G.
If track noise is a concern, read the article in the MR special issue How to Build Realistic Reliable Track, published in 2009. The article on page 22 will answer many of your questions. The article is based on testing materials for HO. Cork on "camper tape" on plywood was among the best configurations for quiet track.
My track has been in place since 2008, shows no signs of deterioration, and noise levels are minimal.
Well whatever I am doing must be OK because no one not even the dog complains about my late night ops.
Joe Staten Island West
Wow! It seams most don't understand acustics (and yes I can't spell). The sound most people get is more a result of the way people build the framing. For example, I have a layout built with 1x4's and basicly a box with foam on it. This creates a sounding board, kinda like a drum. To fix this I will have to add a sound baffle underneath for real quiet, don't know if I will at this stage.
rrebell Wow! It seams most don't understand acustics (and yes I can't spell). The sound most people get is more a result of the way people build the framing. For example, I have a layout built with 1x4's and basicly a box with foam on it. This creates a sounding board, kinda like a drum. To fix this I will have to add a sound baffle underneath for real quiet, don't know if I will at this stage. Certainly agree, using foam on such a framework will creat the sounding board, even plywood will produce some and allow sound transmission. As said the camper tape will help, but if attempting to constuct a layout to silence the running noise levels to some extent, I would recomend open grid cookie-cutter, or better yet, Spline subroadbed. Masonite spline is about the quitest and wood spline close. Spline on risers presents other issues of placing scenery base and also transitioning to sheet ply for yards and industries
Certainly agree, using foam on such a framework will creat the sounding board, even plywood will produce some and allow sound transmission. As said the camper tape will help, but if attempting to constuct a layout to silence the running noise levels to some extent, I would recomend open grid cookie-cutter, or better yet, Spline subroadbed. Masonite spline is about the quitest and wood spline close. Spline on risers presents other issues of placing scenery base and also transitioning to sheet ply for yards and industries
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
There Flexxbed product no longer uses recycled material. It is all new material now. I am currently using it on my layout. I use Alex Latex Caulking to lay the roadbed on 1/2" birch plywood. The layout is a cookie cutter type so I don't have the sound board issue as of yet. I'm sure that will change once I add Scenery. I am really happy with the roadbed so far. My previous layout was cork on Homasote and I can barely notice a difference from that layout to this one.
The one area that has tracks directly on plywood is noisier but it doesn't bug me so much.
I am really quite satisfied with the flexxbed (vinyl roadbed) that the OP mentioned and would use it again on future layouts.
Colorado Front Range Railroad: http://www.coloradofrontrangerr.com/
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.