Mike Lehman:
"We have found the enemy and he is us"
Yea Pogo!!!
Well put!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
BRAKIE Geared SteamSomeone's time in the hobby means nothing to me, I've seen as much bad advice come from "veterans" as I have anyone else. It Ever think that "bad advance" works? That's the problem with forums members forget there can be many correct answers to a given question since many of us learn different ways to get to the same result.. Like I mention many complicate the simple while overstating the obvious.
Geared SteamSomeone's time in the hobby means nothing to me, I've seen as much bad advice come from "veterans" as I have anyone else. It
Ever think that "bad advance" works?
That's the problem with forums members forget there can be many correct answers to a given question since many of us learn different ways to get to the same result..
Like I mention many complicate the simple while overstating the obvious.
Larry, For the record, I wasn't referring to you, but bad advice, by description, would mean it didn't work.
Sheldon, I thought that thread was hilarious, but again, I find amusement where others may get irritated.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
zstripe A lot of times,depending upon what you search,on Google,will show these exact same MR forums,for the answer. Cheers, Frank
A lot of times,depending upon what you search,on Google,will show these exact same MR forums,for the answer.
Cheers,
Frank
Exactly!......Frank wins this thread!
- Douglas
Some replies that complicates the simple and overstates the obvious
Guilty as charged - but isn't that the beauty of the forums - finding ways to obfuscate??
This thread is kind of like the accident on the freeway--you know shouldn't look but you just can't help yourself.
So true - but you can't look away....must stop...
I think the forum has actually gotten better in recent years
Totally agree here - I have been here off and on since around 2000 much less flaming and personal attacks
it just makes me think my time would be better spent in the layout room.
that for me is almost always the case but who doesn't like to goof off, get inspired or maybe help some one out - quite the paradox of the forums
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
mlehman mobilman44"Right on" analogy! Seems like there is always one or two of "those threads" on here.......... Yep, they gotta keep several discouragement threads going. Otherwise all those claims about how useless we all are - them included I presume - will start to sound rather lame...check that, a little too late for that now. One has to wonder where they got all that great knowledge that's too valuable for them to share. Mom and dad? Stodgy old uncle? Benevolent grandparent? The guys behind the counter at the long gone hobby shop? Usenet [smirk]? I think the forum has actually gotten better in recent years. That probably disturbs those who insist that we're wasting our time here...but who seem to have no problem wasting their time telling us that. The hobby is dying...but only if we let those who view it as another form of cheap internet entertainment to set the bar that low. Meanwhile, I've got modeling to do. WPF is only three days away
mobilman44"Right on" analogy! Seems like there is always one or two of "those threads" on here..........
Yep, they gotta keep several discouragement threads going. Otherwise all those claims about how useless we all are - them included I presume - will start to sound rather lame...check that, a little too late for that now.
One has to wonder where they got all that great knowledge that's too valuable for them to share. Mom and dad? Stodgy old uncle? Benevolent grandparent? The guys behind the counter at the long gone hobby shop? Usenet [smirk]?
I think the forum has actually gotten better in recent years. That probably disturbs those who insist that we're wasting our time here...but who seem to have no problem wasting their time telling us that.
The hobby is dying...but only if we let those who view it as another form of cheap internet entertainment to set the bar that low. Meanwhile, I've got modeling to do. WPF is only three days away
Mike,
First off your layout is fantastic, I got a chance to go throught you photos the other day - great work.
Second, while I am finding little value in this or any forum any more, I do think that for many people it is a valueable resource.
I however do feel very out of touch with a large percentage of those who post on here - and that does not bother me one bit, it just makes me think my time would be better spent in the layout room.
So I have dramaticly reduced the time I spend reading or posting anything on here.
Sheldon
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Everyone,keeps,saying,''Model Railroading Is Fun'',,surely beats some things going on now..
Richard,
"Right on" analogy! Seems like there is always one or two of "those threads" on here..........
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Richard
BRAKIE Now is it time for another "The hobby is dying" or another "cost of the hobby" topic? We could revisit the old days and have a good DCC vs. DC or which is the better DCC system brawl.
Now is it time for another "The hobby is dying" or another "cost of the hobby" topic?
We could revisit the old days and have a good DCC vs. DC or which is the better DCC system brawl.
Now you're talking ! I mean come on...those are generally entertaining topics to read....
I'll leave now......
Happy modeling all!
Don.
"Ladies and gentlemen, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that both engines have failed, and we will be stuck here for some time. The good news is that you decided to take the train and not fly."
BRAKIE richhotrain Maybe the first response to the OP's question should have been, Just Google it. Rich In this case a Google search may have been more trouble then its worth. A forum search may have help in this case but asking a question was the better solution. There's a time to Google,a time to search the forum and a time to ask. Now is it time for another "The hobby is dying" or another "cost of the hobby" topic? We could revisit the old days and have a good DCC vs. DC or which is the better DCC system brawl.
richhotrain Maybe the first response to the OP's question should have been, Just Google it. Rich
Maybe the first response to the OP's question should have been, Just Google it.
Rich
In this case a Google search may have been more trouble then its worth. A forum search may have help in this case but asking a question was the better solution.
There's a time to Google,a time to search the forum and a time to ask.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
ATLANTIC CENTRAL You mean like all the bad advice in this thread: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/220305.aspx?sort=ASC&pi314=1 And as we have seen, "good" or "bad" is pretty subjective.
You mean like all the bad advice in this thread:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/220305.aspx?sort=ASC&pi314=1
And as we have seen, "good" or "bad" is pretty subjective.
That thread ran five pages, unnecessariy since the OP had his answer on page 1.
Alton Junction
calvinjrYou guys are Crazy!!!!
Naw,we just appear that way..
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And as we have seen, "good" or "bad" is pretty subjective. Sheldon
I like that part about turning the layout around.
A fine example of complicating the simple since all that was needed was to turn the trucks around.
davidmbedard
You guys are Crazy!!!!
Geared Steam Someone's time in the hobby means nothing to me, I've seen as much bad advice come from "veterans" as I have anyone else. It's like post counts, they do not guarantee knowledge. I just noticed the snail, I've never used the snail before, so like David said, +1 to the post count.
Someone's time in the hobby means nothing to me, I've seen as much bad advice come from "veterans" as I have anyone else. It's like post counts, they do not guarantee knowledge.
I just noticed the snail, I've never used the snail before, so like David said, +1 to the post count.
zstripe WOW!! Why do I feel,slighted,,I guess old old guys don't count,,62 yrs in the Hobby and still don't know nuttin, Gee!! Cheers, Frank
WOW!! Why do I feel,slighted,,I guess old old guys don't count,,62 yrs in the Hobby and still don't know nuttin, Gee!!
dehusmanI'm sorry but spelling does count when searching. Using the right term too.
Dave,
Yes, and that's why it's useful to have some back and forth with someone who's asking for help, even if all it is is finding the right term and spelling for a search. Otherwise, it's a lot like sending the new guy to the tool crib to fetch the "muffler wrench."
In fact, it WAS a stunningly simple search. The fellow who asked me was a highly qualified missile maintenance tech trainer, so knows his way around tech docs. But railroad culture is a whole different kettle of fish than a Titan, the lingo is different, and even spelling can be different in some cases.
And like the rest of us, he's not getting any younger, either. That's something I've noticed, too, about myself the slipping of memory, where even those of us who might once have been sharp as a tack find ourselves searching for the right term to search with. Like a lot of follies of youth, the belief you'll always be smart and indestructible will lead you astray...before reality starts sinking in. You might be answering (or not answering) questions today, but in 20 years, you may be back to asking them again. All I can say is pay it forward and hope you're around to collect...because you'll eventually need to unless you meet with the alternative.
This is another reason why specialized reference librarians are great resources, because they know how and where to look, oftentimes even what to look for. I'm not suggesting that we need to qualify to do that either, just appreciate the complexity of finding information on the internet, the normal foibles of the human mind, and the powerlessness of projecting "go search" as some sort of universal solvent of human knowledge. It's not,as wonderful as the internet is, it requires human intervention and interpretation far more often than some would want us to believe in claiming tossing off "go search" as the solution to questions here.
Forums and their worth??
I generally participate in this forum on an infrequent basis for a few reasons:
I enjoy reading various threads and looking at the pictures of what others have done. I have met various people through he forum and had one member who lives in Belgium visit my house last summer. I pick up ideas and inspiration where I can.
I also have been witness to a few forum classics such as Dave V’s “Stoneland scenics” post, Jarrel’s “MR is fun” post and various other threads such as the MTH bashfests and the inevitable John Allen worship/backlashes….
It is indeed what you make it,
mlehman dehusmanI am always amazed that people will wait hours or days for somebody to answer a question, when I can find the answer in moments. I was talking to a member about his having trouble finding wiring diagrams for some autoreversers he wanted to use at some level crossings. He knew it could be done, said he'd Googled it repeatedly, and had no luck finding any wiring diagrams, including from whoever made them. So I say down here and did a search, had the diagram at the top of the first page of results. He asked me how I did that? I mention this because it is our good example that makes a teaching moment. You can't just tell folks "This is it, go for it!" IF you expect them to learn.
dehusmanI am always amazed that people will wait hours or days for somebody to answer a question, when I can find the answer in moments.
I was talking to a member about his having trouble finding wiring diagrams for some autoreversers he wanted to use at some level crossings. He knew it could be done, said he'd Googled it repeatedly, and had no luck finding any wiring diagrams, including from whoever made them. So I say down here and did a search, had the diagram at the top of the first page of results. He asked me how I did that?
I mention this because it is our good example that makes a teaching moment. You can't just tell folks "This is it, go for it!" IF you expect them to learn.
That's why I mentioned in my post about finding out what phrase they were using and helping them by suggesting alternate phrases for the search. There is a learning curve on how to successfully search. I have no problem helping people with tricky searches. Its the really simple ones that get me.
That's also why I may correct people's spelling because in many cases people get bad results because they can't spell. I'm sorry but spelling does count when searching. Using the right term too. I don't know how many times I've seen people ask about the steps at the corner of a freight car, a "seal step". Its a "sill step". Spell it right you get answers immediately. Spell it wrong, you will never find what you are looking for. So if I correct somebody's spelling its not because I'm being mean to them, its because if they actually did want to do some searching on their own they need to know what the proper term is.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Yes, happened to me during our ops session on Saturday. I was talking to a member about his having trouble finding wiring diagrams for some autoreversers he wanted to use at some level crossings. He knew it could be done, said he'd Googled it repeatedly, and had no luck finding any wiring diagrams, including from whoever made them. So I say down here and did a search, had the diagram at the top of the first page of results. He asked me how I did that? He's spent considerable time searching without luck for a diagram. I said I just get a lot of practice as a historian.
Now, if you'd just as soon be trying to tell them to buzz off...OK, I know some of you think it's tough love, but it's really more tough than love, sheez...then just tell them to Google it. Just because someone doesn't mention it doesn't mean they did try. Heck, lot's of folks don't even know what Google or Bing is, although they do, sorta, know what "Search" is.
Now, beyond pedagogical success in helping someone, the use of a good example also is far less likely to discourage a new hobbyist than whatever takeaway message they get from "Google it." Are we here to build the hobby? I hope so, although sometimes actions speak louder than words. I'm not saying it's anyone's responsibility to do so who doesn't want to help, just don't hurt the efforts of those of us who are willing to field these sorts of questions.
We were all rookies at some point in this hobby. If each of us were 100% honest with ourselves then we would admit to having, at some point, asked a question that had an obvious answer to others, but to us was as illusive as snapping a clear photo of Bigfoot/Sasquatch/Yeti. Now I completely agree that there are many, many tools open to us today then there ever has been in the past in this hobby to find answers to our questions. Be it Youtube, Google, Bing or whatever. They are exceptional resources and I personally use them often. However, some folks new to this hobby and who are not familiar with the terminology, lingo, definitions, scales, manufacturers etc often have zero clues where to even begin to search and if they do find some information cannot make heads nor tails of it because...well...they are new and have limited or no experience. I think we often forget just how daunting this hobby can look/be to complete rookies who read and see what's in the magazines or on model railroading sites and who want to, in time, achieve something similar for themselves, but haven't a clue where to begin. Feedback is very important to all of us, but especially to the new folks. What better place to seek advice, encouragement, pointers etc then a Model Train Devoted Discussion Group such as this? A place where people of all ages, all levels of experience, all manner of interest, can voluntarily choose to offer advice or suggestions to help out a fellow model railroader or enthusiast...or choose to not post any response whatsoever and simply read on/move on. Now, having said all of this, those of us with questions need to be as clear in our questions, and what it is we need assistance with as is possible because, after all, we are all volunteering our time. Also, patience and a "thank you" does go a long way . I have a habit...as some of you here may have noticed...of posting "each to their own" on many threads. But it does ring true. I would like to think that each of us has something to bring to the table here, regardless of age and/or experience. I learn everyday and want to learn and evolve in this hobby as much as I can. I get a HUGE amount enjoyment from learning. Personally...personally...the day I stop learning or stop wanting to learn, or think that I know everything there is to know, is the day I need to shut the power down on the layout for the last time. But...each to their own...
Happy Modeling!
If the answer to a question is purely a factoid and can be found with a 10 second search then I have no problem telling people to go to Google. I pretty much figure if I can run a Google/Bing search and find the answer in 10 seconds then they probably could too. I am always amazed that people will wait hours or days for somebody to answer a question, when I can find the answer in moments.
If they say they searched for "X" and couldn't find the answer I am more likely to help them, including suggesting alternate phrases to search for, so they can be more successful the next time they try.
If its a question that requires an opinion or an explanation or a discussion then suggesting Google is not helpful.
Sir MadogThis forum is what you make out of it.
So true, so true.
At least newbies with a question, as stale as it may seem to many of us, are trying to make something out of this hobby.
I still don't get the obsession some members here have with telling others:
A) They don't need a model RR forum, they just need Google, Bing, or whatever.
B) This forum is worthless because no one contributes anything to it, so why should they?
C) However, they will contribute repeated assertions of the worthlessness of the forum, which calls into question their own participation in it, as if to essentially say they're here contributing to the worthlessness of the forum by doing what they complain others have done to make it worthless for them.
Folks, it's supposed to be a discussion forum. Telling someone to go elsewhere, because it's just a waste of electrons to discuss anything here, is obviously a self-identified waste of your own time, if the forum truly is so worthless. Is this some strange variety of sado-masochism? Simple passive-aggresivesness? Too much testoterone and not enough social graces? Mama raised you to be mean?
If people don't intend to contribute, but do intend to discourage others from contributing...is it any wonder some folks think the forum is worthless? Oddly, those who feel strongest about this seem to be the same folks telling us how worthless it is. Rather a self-fulfilling prophecy I'd say. "We have found the enemy and he is us."
I guess I'd feel better about their entertainment if they'd come up with new ways to describe how worthless our discussions are, instead of just the same old "search for it..." Wait a minute...maybe THAT'S what they find the forums useful for?!? Implicitly telling the rest of us what a bunch of idiots we are for trying to happily participate? Gee, I'd hate to spoil their fun.
Me? I'm gonna keep on having fun and discussing it here, because that's what I want to make here, not some miserable place where people discourage you. I promise, if I start feeling the need to unload on others while participating in an activity I find pointless, I'll go talk to the shrink, just to spare the rest of you.
I have a hunch that this thread is leading into the nirvana of our hobby.
I do get a lot out of this forum, information on how to do things. It is also a great source of inspiration for me, plus a motivation to keep on trying.
This forum is what you make out of it.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Threads like this are exactly why I don't spend much time on here any more. And, the less time I spend on here, the fewer times David is likely to get banned. And I must admit, that the few times I did ask a question, or seek help or info on here, the results were not all that helpful. Not meaning to brag or sound arrogant, but that might have a little to do with the fact that I have been at this model train thing for about 46 years now - like david said - there really is not that much "new" stuff for me to see/learn. I am beginning to realize more and more that there are at least three distinct classes of forum members, the oldbies like Sheldon and David, the newbies like Calvin and others, and the rest of us, the middle class of the forum so to speak. What may be old news, or no news, for guys like Sheldon and David, is new news for newbies. And, for the rest of us, there is still plenty to learn, and a lot of good information is still available on this forum. And I, for one, am grateful that guys like rrinker and doctorwayne and a host of others stick around and answer questions that have been asked before. I would rather that experienced pros like Sheldon and David stick around and answer all of those old questions once again. But if the sole purpose of participation is just to stick around for a laugh or two or just to make short, curt remarks, then what's the point of sticking around? Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Threads like this are exactly why I don't spend much time on here any more. And, the less time I spend on here, the fewer times David is likely to get banned. And I must admit, that the few times I did ask a question, or seek help or info on here, the results were not all that helpful. Not meaning to brag or sound arrogant, but that might have a little to do with the fact that I have been at this model train thing for about 46 years now - like david said - there really is not that much "new" stuff for me to see/learn.
Threads like this are exactly why I don't spend much time on here any more.
And, the less time I spend on here, the fewer times David is likely to get banned.
And I must admit, that the few times I did ask a question, or seek help or info on here, the results were not all that helpful. Not meaning to brag or sound arrogant, but that might have a little to do with the fact that I have been at this model train thing for about 46 years now - like david said - there really is not that much "new" stuff for me to see/learn.
I am beginning to realize more and more that there are at least three distinct classes of forum members, the oldbies like Sheldon and David, the newbies like Calvin and others, and the rest of us, the middle class of the forum so to speak.
What may be old news, or no news, for guys like Sheldon and David, is new news for newbies. And, for the rest of us, there is still plenty to learn, and a lot of good information is still available on this forum. And I, for one, am grateful that guys like rrinker and doctorwayne and a host of others stick around and answer questions that have been asked before.
I would rather that experienced pros like Sheldon and David stick around and answer all of those old questions once again. But if the sole purpose of participation is just to stick around for a laugh or two or just to make short, curt remarks, then what's the point of sticking around?
I've been asking myself the same question for a while now, and keep getting the same answer, guess that's why you hear less and less from me.
Tired of being told I'm "afraid of DCC", that my Intermountain wheel sets will not work in Kadee trucks, that no one needs sprung trucks to begin with, that working diaphragms are not important, that signaling is a waste of time, that sound makes things so much better, and that selective compression of passengers cars is not "good enough" - often from a bunch of people who have never built a freight car or wired anything.
Again, a good many of you are simply not in the same hobby as me, I'm off now to practice my hobby.