Here is a picture of a rotary type train order board that was not uncommon on CNR branch lines into the 1970s. It was red on both sides since there might be train orders to be delivered for trains in both directions. The order board had to be "on" if there were orders for any train in that direction, even if they didn't apply to the next. (Thanks Dave for reminding me of that second, more common, reason for issuing a clearance with nil orders.) This "paddleboard" type by its nature could not be direction specific. That was one reason for paired semaphores (or lights) being strongly favored on busier lines.
<http://www3.telus.net/jsuther9/rails/1973-09-17Nb-Coaticook-OrderBoard.jpg>
I have seen a place where the station had a train order semaphore for only one direction, so perhaps in that case you might theoretically have a paddleboard with a white or black background. But it would be the exception rather than the rule.
John
Hi Dehusman
It does look a bit like a switch target only bigger
The label say's station order board rotary type.
It is Grandt line product 5089 if that helps
Annoyingly it says use thread for the three brace rods but only shows where one goes.
I am guessing that this is a very old style board
Going on the colours because thats what started this the instructions indicate the different shaped boards are one colour both sides which doesn't seem right..
white or red depending on shape
regards John
John Busby But this order board does not go up and down. It goes round and back it rotates and each of the two boards is a different shape. However from the comments I am now thinking the shape may indicate which direction of train it applies to.
But this order board does not go up and down.
It goes round and back it rotates and each of the two boards is a different shape.
However from the comments I am now thinking the shape may indicate which direction of train it applies to.
This sounds more like a switch target than a train order signal.
How do you indicate that you have orders for trains in both directions?
Maybe it means "I have orders" and it doesn't specify a direction. If its set to red trains in both directions have to stop and get orders or a clearance. If its a really low traffic line it wouldn't be a big deal.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Hi guys
Thanks for the information.
so the white becomes the back of the board.
It is only capable of showing red or white hence the original thought of the early white for proceed in this case meaning no orders to pick up.
cx500 A couple of further comments. In Canada the back of semaphore blades was generally black rather than white, so perhaps it depended on the railroad. If the order board was at stop, the train should stop to pick up orders or a clearance.
A couple of further comments. In Canada the back of semaphore blades was generally black rather than white, so perhaps it depended on the railroad. If the order board was at stop, the train should stop to pick up orders or a clearance.
Depends on the railroad and rules. many roads didn't have a yellow indication (the railroad I started on did not have a "yellow" train order signal, only red and green.
If a stop was not required but orders (or just a clearance) were to be delivered), that was what the caution or yellow position was for. If the order board only had two positions, a yellow flag held by the operator or in a flag holder on the station was the equivalent.
Not necessarily, that was a completely different signal. As I said my railroad only had red or green. Red meant you needed to receive a clearance before departing the station. Green meant there were no orders for you at that station.
A yellow flag as a calling on signal that meant the train could advance to the train order office to receive train orders.
If you had to sign for orders the signal would be red and no orders hung. If the orders didn't have to be signed for the orders would be hung where the train could be picked up on the fly.
Some may wonder why only a clearance might to be delivered. In dark territory there was a required time interval between trains, often 20 minutes. The operator would keep the order board at red for the required interval but a clearance might be prepared for a closely following train indicating the time the train ahead departed.
Or the orders may be for a following train. Depends on whether the train order signal is normally red or green. If the railroad rules have the normal position of the train order signal green then as soon as the dispatcher tells the operator at Dora he has orders for an eastward train ("Dora copy 5 east" or "Dora 19 east") the operator would set the eastward train order signal to stop. If the order was for the 3rd train to arrive, then the operator would give the next two trains a clearance that says "I have no orders for your train" and the 3rd train would get the order and a clearance.
Another way to space the trains is just to set the signal to green, no clearance is necessary.
Railroads that keep the train order signals at stop, keep it at stop until a train signals its approaching (14m) then the signal is set to whatever indication is required.
A couple of further comments. In Canada the back of semaphore blades was generally black rather than white, so perhaps it depended on the railroad. If the order board was at stop, the train should stop to pick up orders or a clearance. Once radios came into use a looser interpretation often happened out on the line since critical information could be conveyed ahead of time.
If a stop was not required but orders (or just a clearance) were to be delivered), that was what the caution or yellow position was for. If the order board only had two positions, a yellow flag held by the operator or in a flag holder on the station was the equivalent. If the orders were not available in the delivery device, or the crew somehow missed them, the train of course would then have to stop and someone from the head end go back to collect them.
I concur with the colors and number of blades, one blade for each direction, red on the side facing the direction it governs, white on the other. I have seen different ends on train order signals, block/distant signals and interlocking/absolute signals.
tomikawaTT Horizontal - STOP! Orders restricting the timetable (or previous order) rights of a train have to be signed for by both the conductor and the engineer, in a book maintained in the train order signal shed. Example - "Train 123 Do not proceed beyond X until train 456 arrives at X."
Not necessarily, it depends on the railroad. What the stop says is that a train may not depart the station without a clearance (with or without orders). Its not an absolute stop, a train may pass a train order signal displaying stop (for example to pull into the clear in a siding), but has to get a clearance before departing. Some roads used it to indicate that a form 31 (order requiring a signature) was being issued. Some it just meant pickup orders/clearance. On those roads the train did not have to stop if the orders were hung on the train order stand or if the train could see the operator was in position to deliver the orders.
The train order verbiage suggested is out of format for virtually every North American rule book I've read. The order would read simply:
No 123 meet No 456 at X or Extra 1234 North meet Extra 4567South at X
That order in itself does not require a signature. It would require a signature if it was being delivered to one of the train involved at X. or if it somehow restricted previously granted rights. If it was being delivered to No 123 at M and No 456 at Z, no signatures would be required.
45 degrees UP or 30 degrees DOWN - pick up orders that did not require signature. Such orders were in the nature of, "Train 456 - Meet train 123 at X instead of Y," X being beyond Y - or similarly informative, frequently granting priveleges over the timetable.
Depends on the rule book, if they differentiated the signals by the type of order, this would also mean stop and obtain a clearance, but that the orders did not required a signature (Form 19 orders). If the orders were in the delivery device or the operator was in position to deliver the orders the train did not have to stop if the orders were delivered. If the orders weren't in a position to be deliverd the train would have to stop to get orders/clearance.
The order "No 123 meet No 456 at X instead of Y" is a Form P superseding part of an order. As long as neither train was at X or Y it wouldn't require a signature. While X may be beyond Y for one train it is before Y for the other and one of the two trains is having its rights restricted. If the stations are A-B-C, ..., W-X-Y-Z, as long as one train is getting the order at Z and the other at W or before it doesn't require a form 31 train order.
On some railroads, the yellow/45 degree sloped indication wasn't used. On some railroads the yellow/sloped indication was a "calling on" indication. Lets say that the trains have the order "No 123 meet No 456 at Dora". No 123 arrives Dora and the depot/train order office at Dora is beyond the siding switch (on the single track). No 456 is badly delayed due to an engine failure and the dispatcher wants to advance No 123 against No 456 to meet at Fay. The operator at Dora would display the calling on signal which would allow the train to advance from the restricted location to the train order office to recieve a clearance (and orders). No 123 pulls out of the siding up to the train order office and recieves another order which reads "No 123 meet No 456 at Fay instead of Dora".
Good morning, John,
From your comment about 90 degree travel I gather that you have upper quadrant train order signals. Lower quadrant blades drop 60 degrees, so a missing blade won't be interpreted as a false clear. The position of the colored lenses will indicate which is which.
First, paint. The front of the blade (side facing traffic) is red (since it can convey an absolute stop) with a white stripe that usually follows the shape of the blade end. The back of the blade is white, as in, "Ignore me." Normal practice (other than at a terminal) would have two blades on a single mast, hence the need to use white on the back of the blade facing away from the train being signalled.
Second, aspect:
And a comment. I've seen round-end train order signals (paddles) and square-end train order signals. I don't recall having seen both on the same mast. My own signals, for staff and ticket workings, are red square end for Home and Start, yellow swallowtail (with black stripe) for distant, standard Japanese practice.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with lower-quadrant semaphores)
Hi all
My order for Grandt Line train order boards arrived today..
I got them because I like the older vibe to them.
They would rotate ninety degrees to change indication if they where not dummies.
The pictures I have seen show the square ends board white and the rounded ends board as red.
My question is are the boards supposed to be the same colour both sides,
this would make sense given the different board shapes.
Many many moons ago white used to be the proceed indication.
So I am assuming white proceed no train orders red stop and pick new train order.
would this be correct??