rrinker The Armstrong book I REALLY want to find is the one on signalling. I saw a copy at a train show once, but didn;t jump, figuring I only had 1 more aisle to walk down before starting back - and by the time I got back it was already snagged up. --Randy
The Armstrong book I REALLY want to find is the one on signalling. I saw a copy at a train show once, but didn;t jump, figuring I only had 1 more aisle to walk down before starting back - and by the time I got back it was already snagged up.
--Randy
A first edition of Track Planning for Realistic Operation would be nice, I have the second and third. I can see what they took out of the second to add modern intermodal information to the third, I wonder what got dumped from the first to make the second edition?
I did pick up a copy of Creative Layout Design at a show once. The Pennsy layout in the end has always been a favorite of mine, mainly because it could just as easily be a Reading layout. And John's Pun Engine was working overtime on that, with the town of Llawn Mawr and of course the town of Bee Haven where at the annual pageant the crown a new Miss Bee Haven.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Santa Fe, getting back to your first post. As you know and have heard you have the "bible" on layout design.
I personally found it a bit of a hard read, but stick with. I reread several passages several times. The most important concept you should take away is John's "squares" concept. Once you master/understand squares as put forth by John you'll be able to go to town designing layouts.
Even though I struggled with it a tad bit, it was worth it and the concepts learned are very helpful.
dknelson As a prior poster mentioned, Armstrong's other book, Creative Layout Design, is also well worth getting although out of print and not as frequently encountered (or as frequently praised) as Track Planning for Realistic Operation. It is also not as frequently found at swap meets so you have to search for it. Dave Nelson
As a prior poster mentioned, Armstrong's other book, Creative Layout Design, is also well worth getting although out of print and not as frequently encountered (or as frequently praised) as Track Planning for Realistic Operation. It is also not as frequently found at swap meets so you have to search for it.
Dave Nelson
Creative Layout Design (used) is currently offered by 18 sellers on Amazon .com. Prices range from reasonable $7.96 to ridiculous $999.00. Eight are $14.95 or less plus $3.99 shipping.
If I am looking for a book, I start with a Bookfinder http://www.bookfinder.com/ Usually the lowest prices can be found from some of the Amazon sellers, but some books are not available through Amazon sellers and somteimes their prices are higher than other sources.
The text book The Railroad What It Is, What it Does has a lot of information in common with Track Planning For Realistic Operation (many of the same diagrams and examples. However, I suggest getting a copy it too because it covers much more. It has chapters which give insight on the the evolution of the US rail system: locomotives, tractive effort/horsepower, 4-axel/6-axel, multiple unit arrangements, etc: signaling: the organization of cars into trains: and much more.
Both hardcover and softcover editions are available from Amazon sellers at reasonable prices.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Yes, the LION knows that railroads do a lot of rebuilding, even NYCT does that (What did they do with that new South Ferry station anyway?) but there is still even more does operations bend to the facts of the plant. "That second track is not there yet, so we will have to do this." Or on the LIRR well we still only have two tracks on the main line and so they are BOTH west bound in the morning and there can be no East bound service until later in the day. Yes they want to build a third track but there is the small matter of NIMBYS that must be overcome.
Yes, build your layout for what you want to operate, we all do that, but just drop one additional industry in that corner and everything has to be re-figured.
BNSF has more traffic in Dickinson than they had before. Somebody bought some land and built a new oil shipping terminal, and when that gets backed up, incoming oil trains must wait on sidings (for two days!?!) depriving the railroad of a primary passing siding. This spring Halliburton will build a new facility for unit trains of SAND!
In the end Operations bends to the layout of the plant. Yours will too.
When the LION built the tables him was thinking "Commuter Operation" with some push pull units and some regional through trains. That main station and two holding yards have since been ripped out and a new four track main line is in its place. Grades too steep? run smaller trains, or rip out the helix and build a bigger one. (Did that three times too!) Now LION has the largest subway layout in North Dakota, but still my operations must be different from what they should be. I have no holding yards at 242nd Street, I must hold trains elsewhere. So my operations must reflect this.
You get a head start by knowing what you think you want to do, but doing it will be different. Do not sweat the small stuff.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Santa Fe all the way!My era is the mid to late 50's as I like steam and early diesels. I also like the vehicles from this period. The most important thing to me is including things I like, not necessarily 100% prototypical(sorry).
No need to be sorry, freelancing some or all of a layout is perfectly fine. One nice thing about Track Planning for Realistic Operation is that it tells you something about how the real thing worked, so once you start to freelance elements together, it's a bit easier to create track arrangements that are plausible -- and thus often more fun to operate.
I've seen over and over again that folks who self-identified as "roundy-roundy" guys ended up really enjoying operation once they tried it. So including operating potential in your plan is a good idea in case your interests develop in the same way.
Santa Fe all the way!If I were to look into prototypical rring, what is a good website for info on real 1:1 railroad trackplans? Say Santa Fe or N&W?
There are dozens and dozens of books on Divisions or regions of those real railroads. If you can narrow your interests down, one of those would be interesting, I imagine.
Additionally:Santa Fe Historical and Modeling SocietyNorfolk & Western Historical Society
Best of luck with your layout.
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Yeah, it´s a good book on layout design and have it but If you have 8x2, that´s another story.
Your best bet for that sort of thing is any sort of historical or technical society assocviated witht he railroad you are interested in. Most have archives of company data that would include track charts and so forth. For things that have survived to modern day, Bing or Google is your friend. Some states also have collections of historical aerial photographs from different eras, and topographic maps. Also Sanborn insurance maps of railroad properties will often show the track arrangement in the area.
I have to agree 100 percent with Elmer. I predate him a few years in the hobby, since I had a dad who spent 50 years in engine service with Santa Fe and I grew up around the railroad. Had my first steam cab ride (so I am told) when I was 6 months old and dad took me down to the roundhouse at Arkansas City Ks. I also had the thrill of sitting on the engineer's seat of an Alco diesel switchengine and running it down the main about a mile with Dad standing beside me. We always had trains, dad was an O gauger, and I ventured into HO while in seminary and built my first layout in a church parsonage in Topeka Ks in 1962.
With one exception all layouts have been Santa Fe, and all were variations of Santa Fe in Oklahoma. My current layout was started in 1980-81 right after I married the love of my life and we bought a new house. We are still in the same house and the Santa Fe in Oklahoma in my basement has been around for some time. Now to the post.
I learned from my dad and from other modelers early to pick an era, railroad, location if I wanted to have a layout that would stay with me. The basement was taken over by my railroad ambitions with full support of my wife who said "she would rather me have trains and be at home than out doing something with the guys. I fully agreed and my wife is an active participant in the train room making it homier, more railroady and all that stuff.
Point in fact, the layout I started in 1980 is still the one I have today. It has been added to, changed, but the layout "Santa Fe in Oklahoma" still has the same basic design, went from two decks connected by helix to a third deck added after the fact on the bottom level.
My layout is "done" but not finished. The track plan follows the Santa Fe from staging south of Oklahoma City to Guthrie OK, where the Enid distrct heads off west, and the mainline ends in Arkansas City staging on the middle deck. The track plan is the same basic plan I started with and because of the planning that went into the layout design has not driven me to boredom. The Enid district comes off the second deck at Guthrie, models all the little towns into Enid which is a major grain port, back into hidden track ending on the bottom deck at Cherokee, Kiowa and Waynoka staging.
After all of that, the point is I started with a locale which I was familiar with, modeled a railroad I knew very well, and designed around operations I knew well. I may change an industrial siding or add a staging track but the layout works for me today better than it did in 1980. I am retired, in good health and have a supportive wife who helps with different parts of the layout. Life is good.
Bob
When one builds a model railroad, it should be built as a real railroad would do it. After all, we are making a model of the prototype. IF we do that, and then just want to watch trains circle the layout, we can. However, if that becomes boring and now we decide that we want to OPERATE, everything is in place the way it should be.
BUT, if all we do is put down a circle of track and put in some industries and tracks in any ole way, the layout will not be fully set-up for operations and we may have to make some changes to get it to work right.
Thus track planning for realistic operations does have a place in building a roundy-round layout.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Another vote for Track Planning for Realistic Operation by John Armstrong. I bought this book back in the early 80's and read it through many times. I used much of the information in my designing of my first and second layouts and recommend it highly! I need to get the updated version on of these days and hopefully will have space in the next couple years after my daughter is thru college to start desgining a layout again.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
BroadwayLion The Railroad must operate what it has.
The Railroad must operate what it has.
That's why they make bulldozers. 8-)
Railroads change a lot more than you would think. Sidings can be lengthened, multiple track added or removed, curves realigned, junctions reconfigured, grades reduced, yards built, rebuilt or eliminated and tunnels bored or daylighted.
While that is somewhat true for the prototype, we are talking about MODEL design, where you do have the opportunity to design it the way you want and you don't have a lot of space so it must be used wisely. Whether you want to watch trains just running in circles or are interested as prototypical of operation as you can get, you will enjoy it more and the layout will be more successful if it is designed well to support the intended operation.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Tracking down (no pun intended) the various articles in MR by Armstrong from the 1950s forward is also good and informative reading, particularly as regards his own layout. He designed layouts for clients who just wanted to watch trains run, and he designed layouts for clients who wanted to replicate particular prototype operations and locales.
Armstrong did evolve as a layout planner. His early articles are very much in the "how to maximize the amount of track you can cram into your area" variety, but his books and later articles are not dogmatic about this.
I would venture to say that Track Planning for Realistic Operation by Armstrong is the most recommended book on layout design. I would add his book on freight yards. I you are interested in more of his designs and insights, Kalmbach offers a DVD version of the various collected articles: http://www.kalmbachstore.com/16003.html
Co-owner of the proposed CT River Valley RR (HO scale) http://home.comcast.net/~docinct/CTRiverValleyRR/
Just to be a LION, I will disagree here.
Operations must be tailored to fit the railroad. Yes you build a new wayside factory, you install the tracks that are required, but you are still limited by the geography: Do not block this road, do not move this mountain, do not fill in this lake. etc.
Most operations today are run on railroads that someone else built with different needs in mind. Four track railroads were built so that slower and faster trains could operate in either direction. With advent of better signaling, they could handle more traffic on fewer tracks.
Now some tracks are gone and railroads must shoehorn today's operations into what tracks are there today. NYCT is limited to what can be run on their railroads by the arrangements of tracks that were made 100 years ago. Moving tracks around in tunnels or on structures is, um, difficult.Yes, that tran *can* switch to this track at this station, but it will reduce the capacity of the entire railroad. Ok in an emergency, but not for daily operations. So no, you CAN NOT run the (F) train as an express from Coney Island no matter what you do, even if it looks possible at a glance.
Mavryk Of course, a lot can be said from just sitting by the layout and watching it run. Like sitting by a crackling campfire. Draws you in. Lorne
Of course, a lot can be said from just sitting by the layout and watching it run. Like sitting by a crackling campfire. Draws you in.
Lorne
If you are interested in just running trains, I couldn't agree more.
Rich
Alton Junction
dehusman The absolute best thing you can do for successful operations is to plan your operations BEFORE you plan your track. That way you get runarounds where you need them crossovers where you need them, and the yards are sized to support the traffic,
The absolute best thing you can do for successful operations is to plan your operations BEFORE you plan your track. That way you get runarounds where you need them crossovers where you need them, and the yards are sized to support the traffic,
If you are interested in Operations, I couldn't agree more.
No worries, your English is better than many, and definitely better than any attempt I could make in any other language. It's the cultural euphemisms that trip people up.
Hi gentlemen,
Tomikawa's answers are alway spot on, I should have understood it at once. A lesson learned!
(being from and living in the Netherlands this surely wasn't the last one)
Paul
Paulus Jas tomikawaTTyou have purchased the textbook for Track Planning 101 the 101 Track Plans also dates from the 50's, though it is a completely different book. Smile Paul
tomikawaTTyou have purchased the textbook for Track Planning 101
the 101 Track Plans also dates from the 50's, though it is a completely different book.
Smile
A bit of a translation problem I think. Track Planning 101 in this sense does not refer to Wescott's book. Instead it means the first course in track planning like Biology 101 is your first course in Biology.
Track Planning for Realistic Operation 3rd edition is updated to include modern railroading (well modern as of the late 90's). The 1st edition has many more track plans especially small ones, if you can find it cheap I would buy that one also.
Long out of print, Creative Layout Design by John Armstrong is worth getting also, if you can find it. It's the next book in layout design.
Enjoy
The first half of John Armstrong's book is devoted to why and how real railroads do their business. The second part of the book is about setting standards, very useful since not every train is able to negotiate every configuration of model track work. In the third part he shows you some insight on planning a few layouts.
A very well written book, worth every penny. It will anable you to better read existing track plans. The chapter on squares is priceless indeed; it allows you to make plans without a ruler and compass and still have them buildable.
Simply stated, you have purchased the textbook for Track Planning 101. Read it all the way through and you will be able to design a layout that makes the best possible use of a given space to allow the kind if operation YOU want - anything from a log mover in the Cascades to commuter heavy rail.
John Armstrong was, for half a century, the Dean of track planners. What you have is his methods - which are priceless. About the first advice given to a new modeler who asks about track planning is to find a copy of TPRO and read it. The best part is, it is very readable - and JA had a sense of humor.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - using methods from Track Planning for Realistic Operation)