Wire sizes One More Time

[matthewd5]

I took advice f a friend who s a retired electrician and big time railroader 

So I've gone with some nice solid 12gauge for the main bus and little 22 gauge for the feeders going up to t he track

probably overkill but it seems to be doing the trick

matthew

[aflyer]

As RICHHOTRAIN wrote the Flyer track is steel, and I don't imagine it will be real easy to solder the feeder wires to it.

My old layout was a 5X10 with just two feeder wires on each loop about opposite each other and there was very little voltage drop. So I am thinking this plan of adding feeders every 3 track sections will be much better.

I don't plan to solder the sections together, but by cleaning each pin, and bending the pins as suggested in the old Flyer manuals, I get a pretty tight fit.  

As also stated earlier I can add feeder wires pretty easily if I detect a voltage drop or performance issue.

Thanks to all,

Aflyer

[richhotrain]

maxman

richhotrain

Stranded wire will be a lot easier than solid wire to solder feeders to the old AF sectional track.  Make sure you clean the contact points on the rails before soldering.

Exactly what type of material is that American Flyer sectional track?  I'm pretty sure it isn't brass or nickel silver.  If it's steel, won't that make soldering more difficult?

It is steel, and soldering is a challenge.  It helps to rough up the surface with a wire brush.

Rich

[maxman]

richhotrain

Stranded wire will be a lot easier than solid wire to solder feeders to the old AF sectional track.  Make sure you clean the contact points on the rails before soldering.

Exactly what type of material is that American Flyer sectional track?  I'm pretty sure it isn't brass or nickel silver.  If it's steel, won't that make soldering more difficult?

[aflyer]

I don't know why the benchwork photo didn't post, trying again.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/gkcooper/IMG_0083_zps463e6c8a.jpg

Aflyer

[aflyer]

Hello Guys,

Thank you all again for the comments and advice.

I think the control center is going to be in sort of in the center of the layout, I think that might make more sense for operations, but for wiring purposes I was thinking it would be better to have it at one end, like the right side of the benchwork.

Well I didn't get any wiring done today, but I did get the benchwork completed. I guess I need to decide where to put the control center pretty quickly.

I attached a photo of the benchwork.  

And a copy of the track plan.  Many thanks to S & S, Texas Zepher,  Paulus Jas  for their assistance wih the plan design, and everyone who commented and helped with the track plan suggestions.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/gkcooper/NewTrackPlan_zps26595e75.jpg

[mobilman44]

Hi!

In 1993 I wired an 11x15 two level HO DC layout, and in 2009 wired a replacement layout in the same place except it was for DCC operation.  Wiring wise, the materials I used worked like a charm.   

Buss wires were 14 gauge stranded.  I believe 16 gauge would have worked just fine, but I didn't want to cut corners.  As your layout is smaller and likely with much less trackage, 16 would be fine.   I prefer stranded for Buss wires, but that's just my preference.

Feeders on both layouts were #20 solid wire.  Solid wire is much better for feeders (easier to work with).  For HO, I believe 18 is bigger than needed and not as easy to disguise.   Number 22 would work just fine I believe.

A couple suggestions:

If your control center is in the middle of the layout, run two sets of Buss wires - a set in each direction out.

Feeder wires should be 3-5 feet apart, with all sidings and short stretches on the other side of sidings wired.  You can never have too many feeders and no one ever would complain about having too many.

Feeders should be as short as possible, especially using smaller size wires.   Mine are 12 inches max.

Do yourself a huge favor and color code all wires (and record what you did).

Hope that helps! 

[richhotrain]

Aflyer,

Nowadays, I am an HO scale guy.

But, I still mess with my old American Flyer trains.  My AF layout is powered with 14 gauge solid copper wire, and the feeders are 18 gauge stranded copper wire,

Stranded wire will be a lot easier than solid wire to solder feeders to the old AF sectional track.  Make sure you clean the contact points on the rails before soldering.  I use a small wire brush.

Rich

[selector]

The very best guaranteed reliability is to solder properly a pair of feeders to every length of track.  That way, if one of the joints between any two lengths is not working well (corrosion, sloppy fit...) the feeders will provide continuity anyway.  Many of us solder two lengths for reliability by soldering the feeders right to the joiners, and the joiners get soldered at the same time to create a robust electrical joint.  The two feeders soldered to soldered joiners guarantees that power will flow outward in two directions to the ends of the two lengths soldered.

Quite a few of us trust our soldered joiners and only provide a single pair of soldered feeders to every three to six or more feet of rails.  As you can begin to see, it's the soldering that makes the difference in reliability.  For DC operations, as it seems you may be, you can get by with fewer feeder pairs and just run one pair every 20+ or - feet of rails.  IOW, you won't have to worry about voltage drop quite so much as we who run DCC do.  DCC in HO scale, for example, and below, is not very tolerant of voltage drops because the short detection circuitry doesn't work as well when the votltage drops over a volt or two.

Crandell

[aflyer]

OK Guys,

Thank you for all the good responses.  I will go with a 14 gauge bus, don't want to cheap out on that.  I do have  a bunch of 18 gauge stranded wire but I may look for something lighter for the feeders.

I was thinking about running a feeder about every three sections of track, but I see some suggestions of more feeds and 1 suggestion  for less feeds, so we will see what others have to say.

I don't have surplus free wire like LION does, but I will get what I need to do it right the first time.

This is an S gauge layout, using original Flyer sectional track for the member who was asking.

Thank you all again for your input,

Aflyer 

[IRONROOSTER]

aflyer

...

Do you think that is sufficient wire size, or to light or over kill? For track power I will be using an A/F 18B 175 Watt transformer.  Lights and buildings can run off another transformer, and have their own bus.

Thanks in advance for your help and comments,
Aflyer

Sound like this is American Flyer.  There are AF guys on the Classic Toy Train forum that can probably answer your question better.  Off hand I think you'll be okay, but then I don't run flyer and some of the older motors draw more current than the newer locomotives.

Kalmbach has a book on wiring toy train layouts here that might be helpful.

Good luck

Paul

[BroadwayLion]

LION solders wires to the rail web. Solid wire is better--stranded wire will allow a little strand to stick up and cause troubles. 

ROAR

[IRONROOSTER]

HObbyguy

What about stranded vs solid wire for track feeders?  Seems like I've seen recommendations both ways- is there any real benefit one way vs the other?

Solid wire makes more sense to me for aux connections like switch motors and such, because its easier to hook up to screw terminals.  Yes/no?

The difference isn't worth worrying about.  Use which ever you prefer or find easier.  I use solid for everything because I find it easier to work with - for others it's stranded.

Enjoy

Paul

[doctorwayne]

I'm not too familiar with your terminology, Aflyer, but your mention of an AF18B 175 Watt transformer has me wondering if your layout is American Flyer.  If that's the case, I'd guess that your 18 gauge wire might not be too far out of line for the demands.  I'm also not familiar with Flyer track, but if it's of the sectional type, you may want to add feeders to each piece or, if it's possible, solder several sections together, with feeders then only to each section.

My entire HO gauge layout, with about 300' of track in service, uses no bus wire and only a single pair of 20 gauge feeders, but all rail joints are soldered.

Wayne

[HObbyguy]

What about stranded vs solid wire for track feeders?  Seems like I've seen recommendations both ways- is there any real benefit one way vs the other?

Solid wire makes more sense to me for aux connections like switch motors and such, because its easier to hook up to screw terminals.  Yes/no?

[BroadwayLion]

Yes, that is about what I would say.

I use 24 - 26 gauge inside of the locomotive itself, and for the "train-line" connection between my subway cars. (You are going to run a subway train, right?) But under the table you need something bigger.

LION uses 14 ga for the bus, and 18 ga for the feeds, but then the LION has miles of surplus 18 ga. otherwise him would buy 22 ga.

LION do not buy (well almost never) wire. Him uses surplus. Does any body need some surplus 0000 ga wire?

ROAR

[selector]

There isn't sufficient disparity between the bus wire gauge you propose and the feeder gauge you propose. I would like to see a thicker bus wire, personally, but I can't state with authority that you must use 14 gauge as your bus. You'll get a lot less voltage drop with 14 gauge over the distance you need your bus wires to travel, and that's quite important when all you have to start with are 15 and a bit volts at the base station's outputs.

I feel 18 gauge is unnecessarily thick for feeders, but if you were to tell us you have about 50 yards of the stuff lying around, I would say go to it.  If you have to purchase 20-22 gauge, say as a 100' spool from Circuit City or whatever they call themselves, or even cheaper somewhere else, I would urge you to use that.  It will wrap easier and solder easier if soldering is your route.  If your feeders are to be less than about 30", 22 gauge wires in pairs every 6 feet is lots.

Crandell

[aflyer]

Hi Guys,

I have searched the forums and read all I can find about wire sizes for layouts.  I guess I really don't know how to decide what is meant by a small or a large layout.  So let me ask one more time about wire sizes for track power.

I am building a new layout and will have 2 loops of track each one will have about 80' of track.
The layout is U shaped, 11' across the back with one 12' leg, and one 16' leg, pictures to come soon.

I think I should use 16 gauge solid copper bus lines and feeders about every three feet or three sections of track using 18 gauge stranded wire.  I will solder the feeders to the track, and am thinking about using the suitcase connectors between the feeders and the bus. The layout is in the house, no humidity issues.

Do you think that is sufficient wire size, or to light or over kill? For track power I will be using an A/F 18B 175 Watt transformer.  Lights and buildings can run off another transformer, and have their own bus.

Thanks in advance for your help and comments,
Aflyer