room preparation

[Anonymous]

First let me set-up the scenario... I have a brand new basement near Chicago that has poured concrete walls. The basement was poured in Jan,2003 and has developed some long hairline settling cracks. There are no water penetration problems(so far). I have a sump pump(per code) but will add a back-up for peace of mind. The basement is extra deep with floor to bottom of joist height of 103 inches and clearance under steel support beam of 92 inches. The basements has heat and air conditioning but no dehumidifier as yet I have not checked humidity levels but it doesn't seem clammy in the summer nor uncomfortably cold in winter. Carpeting is planned for the floor. The stairs are straight and away from the wall allowing a no duck-under entry into the layout space. The entire space will dedicated to model railroading with a small crew lounge and workbench. A suspended ceiling with abundant lighting will be installed. The layout design currently calls for it to have a double shelf along three walls. I am contemplating 2x2 furring strips glued and screwed to the concrete walls.

Ok here are the question I have so far:
1. Do I need to insulate?
2. With 2x2 framing as described above, do I need varor barrier or concrete wall waterpoofing paint or neither?
3. With the 2x2 framing can I hang drywall or should i go with hardboard as a backdrop material?

Any other hints or tips will be appreciated.

[jjbmish]

Definitely do the vapor barrier. When the house was built did they insulate the outside of the foundation wall? If not, I'd add insulation, otherwise it's up to you. The 2x2's should hold the drywall with no problem. The dehumidifeir would be a very good idea, unless you are always running the A/C. Even with A/C I run my dehumidifier all summer. This summer was kind of cool so we didn't run the A/C much so the dehumidifier worked a little harder than usual.

John

[ClinchValleySD40]

Do everything possible to keep the basement dry. If it was me, first I'd paint the concrete walls with drylock or another sealer. And then attach studs, insulate and vapor barrier. And since you're doing carpet, the back up sump pump is a must (ask me how I know). Be sure to paint the floor to keep moisture from coming up into the carpet.

With your ceiling height, I'd sure look hard at doing a mushroom.

[orsonroy]

Gotta love Illinois contractors...they think they can pour a good foundation in February. That's why I prefer 100 year old, pre-settled foundations (of course, finding one big enough for a layout is a pain...)

Definitely add Dryloc, a vapor barrier, AND insulation, if you want a warm basement. I did all three to my old foundation, as well as replaced the original windows, and am now blessed with a dry, warm, comfortable basement.

Taking the time to completely finish a basement for a layout area will not only make your model RR'ing life easier in the long run, but it'll also add to the value of your house. Add a bathroom, seal the concrete floor, run plenty of electric, and add a full ceiling (I prefer drywall over ceiling tiles) and you'll have a place where the whole family (as well as your modeling buddies) will be more than happy to visit.

2x2's will be more than strong enough to hold drywall, but check your local building codes first. They might not allow anything but 2x4s. If you're going to go whole hog and drywall, you might as well build it to spec so you don't get burned when it's time to sell the house. Code violations are contract-breakers. To save costs, use steel studs instead of wood 2x4s. They're up to code and cost less than wood. One big problem with usin 2x2s to stud out a wall is when it comes time to run electric. You'll blow the structural integrity of the 2x2 if you try to drill a hole for conduit.

And don't tempt fate by drilling holes into the walls. Attach the studwalls to the floor joists, and make them so tight that they have to be sledgehammered into final alignment. I did that with my studwalls, and they're rock-solid, even when banged into by 200 pound guys!

[cwclark]

Can't help you there..we don't have basements in southeast Texas....This gumbo dirt here is impossible to dig into that deep!...I put my layout in an insulated workshop..I did paint drylock on the foundation base walls and sealed them around the edges with silicon caulk before i laid the carpet....We get a lot of rain here and we flood here quite often (not enough to get in the building, but it rains so hard that water puddles up because it's so flat here and it has a hard time running off the property) anything I can do to keep the water out will help...Chuck

[CBQ_Guy]

Let me throw my two cents in here.

I grew up in Chicago and now live about 90 miles southwest of the city in what's called north central Illinois.

Someone said to check local codes before you do anything and that may be the best advice and the best starting points. Don't want any "surprises" later.

I would use a vapor barrier. A lot of this depends on how professionally finished you want the basement to be -- do you want a living space or just something that "looks" finished but is really only there for the layout. The latter is good enough for me, so I just used 2x2's screwed to every other floor joist and screwed to a 2x4 plate attached to the concrete floor. Drywall will be hung horizontally along the upper portion, so the entire assembly will just be a big support to hang a backdrop from and will actually be open space beneath the layout. as it won't be seen

My house is over 100 years old and has a stone foundation, otherwise I would have shot studs into a poured foundation wall, if that's what I had. One thing I want to mention here if you're considering using 2x2 studs - don't! In "the old days" they would have been OK, but I've noticed they are thinner all around then they used to be (same with 1x2's). But nowadays I see they have 2x3's, which I think I would use in place of the 2x2 if I were doing it over in the manner I'm doing mine.

Also, by code, a hole for running electrical wire through a stud or joist has to be something like a minimum of 1 1/4" from the edge of the wood. This is so a drywall screw has less chance of going through electric wires run in the wall. I found this out after my 2x2's were in, and since you're near Chicago, you may have to use conduit, so I'd check on that, too. Here we can use Romex but I'm going to have to attach it somehow to the backside of my 2x2's since I can't mount the Romex deep enough from the front edge where the drywall gets attached any other way.

I don't really think you need the insulation in the wall in this climate, though if you're going with a "real" finished room you probably should would want to and insulation is farely cheap. Also, don't forget to have enough circuits for power and lighting. You may even want to have a sub-panel put in, by a licensed electrician, with a master kill switch to turn off power to EVERYTHING when you leave the layout room.

Good luck with your project. . . neighbor!

[Anonymous]

You should also use nail guards on the studs where the conduit passes through. They are 2" wide metal plate that you hammer right into wood. They are cheap at Home Depot or Lowe's (20 or 30 cents each) and prevent drywall screws from going into the conduit.

[Anonymous]

Hi All,

I just finished my basement last year. I also live in central Illinois. My house is about 100 years old, with cut limestone/fieldstone basement walls.

I had given considerable thought to finishing the basement as it would be warmer in winter and cooler in summer but, more importantly to control the humidity.

I used 3 5/8 inch metal studs from Menards. Every stud is straight , cuts with tin snips, you do not have to worry about the wood rotting. You put the studs together with stud screws and a cordless drill. They are also more forgiving on measurements than wood.

For the insulation I hired a contractor that specializes in sprayed on polyurethene foam.
It is sprayed on one to two inches thick. It is its own vapor barrier. The thing that I liked best about it is you do not have to worry about it growing or hiding mold. I cannot say enough good things about it.

I finished the walls with a combination of drywall and plywood depending on the use of the room. It really makes a big difference from what it was....cold ,hot ,and damp. It turned out to be a very usable and attractive space.

[orsonroy]

Yeah, it's amazing what a modern upgrade can do to a 100 year old basement, isn't it? When I bought my Foursquare five years ago, the two stories aboveground were a Mission Style lover's dream. The basement was a drafty hole in the ground. I lost a lot of heat out of every nook and cranny. I could even stick my fist outside UNDER one of the windows!

Needless to say, I spent a lot of time and sweat on remodeling the basement. New windows, rerouted electricals, a new bathroom, and lots of insulation, and almost a year's worth of work, and I ended up with a brand new basement. It's now the warmest floor in the house (with only one vent, usually closed!), and my heating bills have plunged. My father (also a modeler), came to see the finished product, and all he could say was, "Aw, you got rid of the dungeon!". (he now loves to come over and "play trains")

[Anonymous]

Another from Central Il, (Just north of Peoria), I too took the standard aproach, I used 2x3's and insulated with fiberglass (the pink itchey stuff), Dry walled and use a De- Humidifer, This was a good summer without the Normal Humidity we usually have though, Room preperation IS a very important part of your layout,

[Anonymous]

Thanks everyone for the useful tips. Looks like concrete sealer and vapor barrier are going on floor and walls respectively. Since my design allows me to put all my 110 in the peninsula and supply along the ceiling, only track and accessory power will be needed along the walls so I plan to run it under the shelves accordingly. Fortunately the only conduit I will need is located in a place that will not cause any issues. While mushroom layout design was contemplated, I decided not to go that route due to complexity.

[Anonymous]

A comment on carpet, I just did my basement floor in 2 ft square carpet squares. with so many odd walls, etc, it went down in an afternoon, cuts with a stanley knife, the walls hold it in, (no glue used )and easy to clean, just lift out the dirty one, wash and dry, put back down, they are rubber backed. cost was more on purchase, outlet centers are cheapest, but with no glues or padding, cost effective. have fun! p.s. vapor barrier a must, go to your states energy website and how to is right there.

[bogp40]

I too agree with all the recommendations. One thing - do you plan on having elec. Recepts and switches on these walls. Wiring with 2x2 dropping romex down each bay to a shallow box (You have only 2" depth to the face of drywall). As a building contractor I would never finish a room this way- Can you afford to loose an additional few inches?
I have never found a straight/ flat concrete foundation wall. I would recommend framing your walls w/ 2x4 w/ top and bottom plates. This way you can measure out 4" snap a chaulk line plumb up set plates and frame away. R-13 faced insulation and drywall. As a safety use greenboard for the bottom sheet. You may encounter water sometime . I realize that standing 4x8s is easier especially for taping- Use all green if you don't mind additional cost. Note one thing I have encountered, using visquene/ plastic for moisture barrier can promote mold on the back of the drywall especially in a basement. I doubt that your basement conditions are no different than in the Northeast. Now all electrical work can be performed to code and w much greater ease. Sounds like the others on this forum are giving good advice. One last note, have you considered painting the dropped ceiling? I have seen various painted ones that look great. Good luck with your project.
Bob

[CBQ_Guy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tdtess

While mushroom layout design was contemplated, I decided not to go that route due to complexity.

This is just my opinion, but if I were you I would reconsider using the mushroom. At first I thought it looked complicated but I think a lot of that is because I really didn't understand it. I would redesign my layout to use it in a heartbeat, now, except my basement ceiling isn't high enough, at just shy of seven feet.

The biggest drawback to building the mushroom is the expense of building raised flooring in some areas. This is no area to try and skimp on. If that's not a problem for your budget, I would seriously consider it.

Here is a link to Joe Fugate's Siskiyou Line of the SP. Joe is on this Forum and may even catch this thread. Read up on how he built and advocates the mushroom. He even has a video coming out any time now which graphically shows, via computer animation, how it is built.

http://siskiyou.railfan.net/

http://mymemoirs.net/model-trains.php

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CBQ_Guy

QUOTE: Originally posted by tdtess

While mushroom layout design was contemplated, I decided not to go that route due to complexity.

The biggest drawback to building the mushroom is the expense of building raised flooring in some areas. This is no area to try and skimp on. If that's not a problem for your budget, I would seriously consider it.

Joe is on this Forum and may even catch this thread.

Yep, I did catch this thread.

A mushroom won't fit in any space, it needs at least 12 feet of width to be practical unless you can live with really tiny aisles or really narrow benchwork. I don't recommend aisles under 30" if you have an operator's layout, but benchwork as narrow as 12 - 18" in HO actually isn't too bad if you get it up high (50" - 65" off the floor).

As Paul points out, mushroom benchwork is not tough to build, but the raised floor can be pricey if you want it solid.

The other problem with a mushroom (or any multideck layout) is how to get from the lower to the upper level. The ideal is to have an "around the room" helix using a moat style mushroom design where the lower level track departs the central benchwork and runs up a helper grade around the outside of the room to reach the upper deck mushroomed section in the middle of the room.

Naturally, not all prototypes fit this track arrangement, but if you have a prototype you want to model that has a helper grade, this is an ideal approach. Less ideal is to use a hidden helix to get between levels ... the primary disadvantages of this are the space requirements for the helix and the amount of track you often need in such a helix.

Unless your layout space is large (500 sq feet or more) you may find the lion's share of your mainline will be in the helix. The amount of track (and thus the running time of your train) that goes into a helix is far more than you think.


Unscenicked two-turn helix on the HO Siskiyou Line [new helix]

In volume 2 of the video series Paul mentioned, I discuss my "helix from hell" which was a lowsy initial design with nothing but problems. We tore it out, totally redesigned it, and the new design [installed in late 1994] solved all the old helix issues and now works like a charm.

Live and learn, as they say!