Hi everyone - I posted a diagram of the space in my basement I have to work with and was wondering if anyone can help me come up with some ideas of what I can do here. I'm inclined to do a 4x8 because this is my first layout and it seems less intimidating for some reason. I understand there are much better things you can do in the same space, but the bench work is the thing that intimidates me. A lot of the "canned" layouts have detailed plans and measurements for all the benchwork pieces and it seems easier for a beginner to follow that. If I do something more creative and non-standard, I feel like the the benchwork will be a lot more difficult.
Some of the things that are important to me:
1) Ability to do continuous run with at least one train, and ideally be able to operate another train, maybe point-to-point at the same time
2) Would like to do a layout that has some grades and levels to it. I like the creativity that comes along with that.
3) Want to have at least one mountain/tunnel.
4) Would be nice to have a station or two that could run a passenger line.
I'm not so concerned about being prototypical, etc. Just really looking to do something that I can operate with my son - having the ability to just let the trains run if we want, but also have the option to do some light operations.
I am somewhat leaning towards the Virginian layout as it incorporates a lot of what I want. If anyone has any other creative ideas of what to do with this space I'd love to hear it.
The layout will have to go in the upper section of this diagram. That 4'7" space is a doorway that I cannot block. Even though the length of the room says 13'10", it's actually about 3 times that length, but I don't really have the ability to build out that far yet. That could be future expansion though. I think an L-shaped layout could work here - but will I have the ability to turn trains around in that upper-right corner easily?
Thanks in advance!
You could do a nice dogbone layout but the one end would have an 18" radius, maybe a 20". Mine has those and is great for cars up to 40'. You could just let the trains run or walk with them if you go DCC. If you cut in the turnouts later you could get the basic dogbone done in a weekend.
That´s quite a nice room you have available for a layout, but it is some challenge for a newbie to "fill" it with a layout, which is both rewarding to build and operate.
There will be a lot of folks in this forum who will tell you, that a 4 by 8 layout is not the best footprint for a layout. Right they are! But, as you say yourself, a 4 by 8 is less intimidating to build, especially if you follow one of MR´s project layouts with their step by step description.
The Virginian is a nice layout, which you can expand as your skills grow.
I designed my layout on the computer for months before I took the wife's minivan to Home Depot for the wood. Then, the lumber sat in the garage for a while before I picked up the saw. Analysis paralysis? Intimidation? Call it what you will, but it took me a while to get started. I also remember being intimidated by my first craftsman kit, and the first time I used Envirotex for a pond. They all came out fine.
One of the secrets of model railroading is that it builds new skills, and sharpens old ones. Each of us is better at carpentry, wiring, painting and slobbering goo all over the place than we were when we started.
So, don't let the intimidation prevent you from building a better layout. If you can fasten the layout to the wall, an around-the-walls layout will actually be easier to construct than a free-standing table. Building the benchwork is only the first of many exciting challenges that you will overcome. Have faith. You can do it.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
As has been mentioned, you could easily do a dogbone. You haven't mentioned scale, which plays a big part in the design. So if the room is actually 30 feet long, can you block the 10'9" wall at the bottom?
If you are planning to build past the bottom "wall" at some point that could make a big difference in the design.
My suggestion is an L shaped layout with a "balloon" (270 degree return curve) in the lower left and upper right corners. I would put a city/yard/terminal on a 18-30" wide shelf along the bottom and 3'9" walls. You can make a loop on one level and then yave the yard/terminal about 4" above the main loop. You will need a long grade, about 15 ft running length, to connect the yard and the running loop. Put a connecting track between the sides of the loop to form a reversing track so you can run a train out of the yard, down to the running loop, then reverse the direction its orbiting the loop to run it back up to the yard.
When you expand, you can take the terminal and move it along a wall to open up the area.
Risks: You will need some sort of access to get under the balloon loops becasuse they will be too far to reach across from the front (anything over 36" is too far to comfortably reach).
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Thanks for the replies. I forgot to mention that I'm modeling HO scale. I know that there are so many better options than 4x8 but like I mentioned, I don't even know where to begin designing any other format. I have little to no experience with wood working and wouldn't even know where to begin designing my own custom benchwork. Does anyone know of any good published layouts that are "U" or "L" shaped that would fit nicely in my space? I wouldn't be afraid to tackle a non-4x8 if I had plans with instructions that someone else designed and built previously.
I looked through a bunch of layout books and got great ideas, but most of them are just track plans and don't go into details about the benchwork. The appealing thing about something like the Virginian for a beginner like me, is that everything is shown step by step, etc. If I built the Virginian, would that give me options to extend the layout at some point in the future?
I was also looking at doing the Black River Junction that was from another MR issue.
Thanks again,
H
H,
Clarify something for us. You have a space approximately 14x11, but are you limited to a 5x10 portion of that space?
I ask that because you say that the layout will have to go in the upper portion of the diagrammed space.
Regarding the ability to build bench work, the key question is: do you own a circular saw and a power drill, and are able comfortable using these two power tools? If so, you can build adequate bench work. If not, you are in trouble as far as building a layout unless and until you hire a carpenter to do the bench work.
Rich
Alton Junction
You say you can't block the door. Could you put a lift out or tip up there? It could be out or open whenever you weren't running trains. A simple one track gate of some sort would allow you to have continuous running when you wanted. You could have your point to point when your gate was open. Just remember to have the track power disconnect a couple feet each side of the gate so that you wont have trains dropping to the floor when it is open. If you can, then you could do a 2' to 2 1/2' wide shelf and have plenty of room to move around in the center.
Another suggestion. When you are are doing your 4x8, cut it into two 2x8 sections and design the track so that it could become sections for an around the room layout.
Just some thoughts.
Good luck,
Richard
The bottom of the room opens up into a much larger space which is my kids' play room which I didn't show on the diagram because I can't use that space right now. So for now I'm limmited to using the upper portion of the room which is what I illustrated in the diagram. It's tempting to try to do something larger but I don't want to bite off more than I can chew. I do own a circular saw, drill and also a jigsaw.
Cowman - I did think about doing a lift section for continuous run and like that idea a lot - but again I go back to the original problem of not knowing how to do the benchwork. That seems like even an extra complexity to add in to the mix. I thinnk a 4x8 might be a good way to hone some basic skills and then shoot for something more advanced for my second layout.
Did most people here start out with a 4x8 as their first layout
Is it a bed room? Do you also have to have a bed in there?
LION might make the layout above the bed, say at 6' elevation from the floor. If it were a little taller, you could make it go all around the room and let it go right over the top of the door.
How high is the ceiling. Once upon a time the LION built a 6' tall bed and could have a living room right under it. (Him was living in a one room apartment at the time.)
Is the room used as an office. Perhaps if the layout is at the 50" level you could have your work desk under the layout.
If you were a CAT you would naturally think vertical!
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
rrebellYou could do a nice dogbone layout but the one end would have an 18" radius, maybe a 20".
I don't see why that would be the case. With a little room left for an access aisle or a pop-up for maintenance, the curve radius could be much larger.
Like this HO layout in 8X10 (the same space required for an HO 4X8 and its aisles). Minimum radius is 22", could be larger in the Original Poster's space.
This HO 10X10 logging layout is fairly specialized, but the general principle of fitting a "water wings" or "dogbone" style layout is the same: place the layout against the walls and the people in the middle. That's as opposed to the "island" style layout which squeezes the people into narrow aisles around the outside. Again, 22" radius and could be larger in the OP's space.
This HO passenger-themed layout is a little different than the OP's space, but again demonstrates the general principles. 24" minimum radius.
Best of luck.
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
hominamadDid most people here start out with a 4x8 as their first layout
Many do, but almost no one builds an HO 4X8 as their second layout. And there is a reason for that.
Don't fear the saw.
Hi Byron - I'm a huge fan of your site. Have actually spent a lot of time on there and if it wasn't for that, I would probably already be set on doing a 4x8. Your "modified Virginian" that you posted above seems like it would work great in my space - but I would need to cut short the terminals on the right side in order to not block the doorway. I just keep going back to the benchwork issue. I wouldn't even know where to begin building for a layout like this.
hominamadYour "modified Virginian" that you posted above seems like it would work great in my space - but I would need to cut short the terminals on the right side in order to not block the doorway.
Think about mirror-imaging and other modifications.
hominamadI just keep going back to the benchwork issue. I wouldn't even know where to begin building for a layout like this.
Although some people on this forum are oddly opposed to book recommendations, a good book will make benchwork very straightforward. How to Build Model Railroad Benchwork, Second Edition is the classic. Out of print, but usually available for a reasonable price used. Basic Model Railroad Benchwork is not as thorough, but is currently in print.
Personally, I wish Kalmbach would put a little more effort into helping folks understand basic benchwork (which is actually pretty easy) rather than propagating yet more HO 4X8s.
You can download either the XtrakCad program or the RTS program and start designing a layout on the computer. They're both free. XtrakCad is the more "capable" program, while RTS is more basic and has a shorter learning curve. Or, you can get both for the same price and take your pick.
I started with a 5x12 foot table layout in the family room. I built it with wheels, using a lightweight box frame and pink foam construction so that it could be moved. I started in April, and figured I'd have something pretty presentable by Christmas. That phase of my layout took 5 years, or 1 month per square foot to go from lumber to finished layout. I mention this because you need to take a long view. Start with a loop in the upper right corner and a shelf along the top wall. Build just that much, and try your hand at building structure kits and making scenery. Slowly, extend the layout. You'll change your plans as you go along, and the layout section you'll design in a few years will be different, and better than the one that you would build now.
MisterB. - RTS is no longer available for downloading. I checked the Atlas site and there is just a simple statement on that matter.
Thanks Byron - just ordered that book.
I would start small even if that means scrapping your first layout in a few years. I have been working on a 5x8 layout for about a year and i have learned so much that i could not imagine starting any bigger. i figure the buildings, trains, turnouts, etc can be recycled when i end up going bigger. I think you are on the right path by focusing on planning. i rushed in the begining to get started and wished i would have planned a few things a little better. Good luck.
Christian
This is a photo looking into the area in my diagram. The doorway in the back on the right is blocked but you can get the idea.
I think that you should build the Virginian.
First, it is a 4X8 which you feel comfortable with, benchwork wise.
Second, YOU like it.
Third, it has all the elements that would be used in building your next railroad.
Fourth, a smaller railroad like the Virginian is more likely to be completed because it is not overwhelming.
Fifth, it has a good track plan for a small RR.
And finally, it is a step by step project railroad that has a lot of instructions, and you can test those new techniques and skills that you will develop as you build it.
Once you complete this RR, if you or your kids want to continue with the hobby of model railroading, you can move on to something bigger and know that you have the skills to build it.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
I am building the Virginian so I thought I'd throw my two cents in.
Before the Virginian I had not built a railroad since I was a kid, nearly 40 years go. I had been thinking about a layout for about 4 years, however I was completely intimidated by all the skills I would need to learn (and probably screw up) with a larger more effective layout. So in March this year I started on my first layout following both the articles in the magazine and the videos. So far it has been a very rewarding experience. I have learned benchwork, how to make a cookie cutter layout, track laying, track cutting, landscaping skills, kit building skills, ballasting and road making skills to name just a few.
Would I built a 4*8 as my second layout. Not a chance. Am I glad I am building this as my first layout. Absolutely. Its a great little layout to learn the majority of the aspects needed to succeed in this hobby. There is a thread in this forum with pictures of progress of a few of us building this layout.
If you do decide to build the Virginian I would recommend getting The January through May issues of the magazine if you do not already have them. They are needed to supplement the videos.
Cheers,
Steve
Let's see...10'9" means that you could have a 5 foot wide table with 34.5" ailses on each side. 13'10" length with open space on the bottom means that you could have a table that's about 11 foot long, keeping the same 34.5 aisle at the top.
You could expand any 4x8 plan and make it a pretty nice layout. The Virginian w/b an interesting choice..
Also, the January issue of MR contains a booklet showing other 4x8 ideas.
If you can't figure the best way to expand the layout, just splicing straight sections into the plan would at least give you more space for scenery and longer spurs and sidings.
Of course, if you can build a 4x8 or 5x11 table, you could build several 2x4 sections and a couple of 4x4 tables to make a dogbone type plan. You can also use Woodland Scenic risers and not necessarily cookie cutter plywood for some of the plans.
If you do an island type table, I suggest you use a center backdrop or high ridge down the middle to give the layout 2 distinct scenes, which most of the plans mentioned above have.
- Douglas
Frankly the most interesting and intriguing ideas that occur to me all involve giving up the goal of a continuous run
Dave Nelson
I was looking through some old MR magazines and found this 5x9 layout from July 2004. I really like this layout as well - reminds me in many ways of the Virginian - but maybe with even a bit more going on. I like how he used mountains to divide the layout into several different scenes. I also like that it has several tunnel entrances, water, a town, industry, a station, etc. I think it also has a good balance of track to scenery.
I would love to build this layout, but without detailed guides about how to cut the sheet, the exact track sections required, and good instructions for the benchwork, I wouldn't even know where to begin. How would one tackle something like this?
A friend of mine is lending me the series of MR magazines that featured the Virginian. When I get it I am going to study that, as well as the benchwork book I ordered and decide what I want to do. Like others said, the Virginian is good for a newbie because every step is laid out, etc. Steve -- I already saw your work on the other thread and I'm very impressed. It is actually where I first heard of that layout to begin with. Great job.
hominamadI was looking through some old MR magazines and found this 5x9 layout from July 2004.
That's a modification of Linn Westcott's "Model Railroad That Grows" HO 4X8 from the 1960s. Note that only a small portion is 5 feet wide, significantly limiting the radii on the narrow end (and increasing the grades).
If you feel that you must build an island-style layout, choosing instead a design that is 5 feet wide overall would give you a chance to broaden the minimum radii beyond 18".
When you see the Virginian series articles, note that the benchwork technique would not limit one to a 4X8 flat-top monolith, even though many will build it that way. With just a bit of sawing and the willingness to climb out of the 4X8 "box", you'd have a layout that has more potential in the long term.
If you're willing to look at a 5x9, take a look at the Jefferson, Memphis, & Northern if you can find the Oct 79 issue or 58 Track Plans. Yes it is a very simple track plan but building it will teach all the skills needed to get going on a model railroad. I built and ran it in a basement for two years before moving to my current house because I couldn't use the walls (directive from the right of way authority).
I know there are a lot of reasons not to use a 4x8, but they do seem a little less intimidating when starting out. My first layout was a 4x6 sheet of plywood with snap track. No legs, just sitting on top of a table. My second was an L shaped 4x10x6 from an old Atlas plan book and again snap track. I say this to let you know sheet of plywood layouts can be easy to build, but ...
... don't be intimidated by the thought of cutting wood. It's only wood. Once you read the benchwork planning book, you'll see just how easy it is to build basic benchwork. It's just like building the frame for a 4x8, only the sizes are smaller. A couple of easy options are hollow core doors mounted on shelf standards from a big box store. Very, very easy to do. Also look up David Barrows dominos. They are basically 18x48 or 24x48 boxes, built just like you would think to build a 4x8, only smaller. They are then connected together to make any other shape needed.
There's really nothing to be intimidated about, but build whatever shape and size you feel comfortable with. The important point is to build something, have fun with it and learn. Even if you tear it down in two years and build the basement empire you will have started the journey and getting started is what it's all about. Don't let paralysis by analysis hold you back.
Hi,
you could flip Byron's first plan.
After buying one of the books about benchwork and asking for help (someone in the hood or a relative) you'll find out woodwork might not be the big hurdle.
BTW the Jefferson M&N is a simple oval, no elevations, however a lovely layout.
Smile
Paul
If I had the space you have available to you, I would build an around the walls layout. You would need to make a swing out/swing in; or, drop down; or, draw/lift tye of bridge to span the door way into the room. This bridge, could be a bridge; or, it could be some type of section of scenery that can be moved to allow access into the room. There are many good folks here who can help you design the actual layout.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
cuyama hominamadI was looking through some old MR magazines and found this 5x9 layout from July 2004. That's a modification of Linn Westcott's "Model Railroad That Grows" HO 4X8 from the 1960s. Note that only a small portion is 5 feet wide, significantly limiting the radii on the narrow end (and increasing the grades).
Is this the book? http://www.amazon.com/Railroad-That-Grows-Linn-Westcott/dp/0890245150
If I do decide to go with an 4x8 or 5x9 as my first shot, do you recommend following this book/layout? I may pick that up too as used copies seem abundant.
Everyone has given me some great ideas here. I'm going to spend the next few weeks reading and planning and will then decide what to do.
Thanks again for all the help everyone.
hominamad Is this the book? http://www.amazon.com/Railroad-That-Grows-Linn-Westcott/dp/0890245150 If I do decide to go with an 4x8 or 5x9 as my first shot, do you recommend following this book/layout? I may pick that up too as used copies seem abundant
If I do decide to go with an 4x8 or 5x9 as my first shot, do you recommend following this book/layout? I may pick that up too as used copies seem abundant
Personally, I wouldn't. The sharp curves, steep grades, and tight Atlas SnapSwitches of that HO 4X8 layout drove me crazy trying to make them work in my teens (and out of the hobby for 20 years). I remember thinking at the time, "Why is this thing so danged cramped? Is every model railroader only allowed one sheet of plywood in his lifetime?"
There's been a lot of new thinking and new materials in model railroading over the last five decades or so. If you feel that it would be easiest for you to build a step-by-step HO 4X8, I'd suggest that you focus on the Virginian.