Hi. I am running a waterfall, and a couple of ponds and a small river. As you may know, there are three main choices for modeler's to pick up:
1). Woodland Scenic's Realistic Water, (1/8' thick max at at each application), and Water Effects (for waterfall strands)
2). Enviro Tex Lite (1/8" thick)
3). Magic Water (no minimum thickness)
The problem is, I've heard very good things about all three. I was concerned about the yellowing issue, but apparantly all three products above do not yellow with age. I am interested to know what your preferred choice is?
What are the pros and cons, if any. Also, should I completely landscape prior to adding the water effects? I am prepared to lay double plaster cloth, then a layer of hydrocal to smooth and seal, a water based paint coating over the hydrocal, then dark colors to add depth. Correct?
-James
James.
I use the Woodland Scenics brand, and I am extremely pleased with it.
One of my rivers has been in place for 7+ years with no signs of yellowing, no cracking, no deterioration.
I pour the water and let it cure before any other landscaping is done in the area.
I use one layer of plaster cloth, that is quite sufficient for a pond or river bed.
I cover the plaster cloth with a thin layer of Hydrocal. I do even it out, but I avoid trying to smooth it too much. The water looks more realistic if there are imperfections in the Hydrocal.
Realistic Water should be poured in 1/8" layers for best results.
I painted the Hydrocal surface with a latex based paint, not water based. You may need more than one coat of paint as the Hydrocal really sucks it up.
Rich
Alton Junction
I have never used Envirotex or any other modelling-specific commercial water effects product, nor have I priced them. I used a finish-guality two part epoxy product made by Swing Paints called Nu-Lustre 55. I didn't seek that product, it sort of collared me ask I walked past the paints shelves in a local hardware store. I have used it exclusively ever since.
They have their own forum on the site where you can ask questions. I asked if it could be tinted with acrylic paints. Despite what the package instructions say about adding water-based products, the answer I got was that I could. So, I added some Wal Mart-available craft paint called "Hauder medium green." I added a small drop to a mix totalling maybe 1.5 cups of the mixture, not the usual gob that one expresses by squeezing the bottle. I also added a pinch of plaster of Paris to get some opacity or turbidity. It worked.
First, though, prepare the 'vessel' that is to be your water course or feature. You need something water-tight to contain the pour, regardless of the liquid you select for use. I used putty, smoothed and sanded reasonably flat, and then painted with a mixture of turquoise and grey paint, lightening it near the shore line. Then I poured two batches, letting each one cure before uncovering it to the dust-laden air. You can use a small stick to scrape the stuff in order to help it spread, although it will do a good job if left alone for 15 minutes.
Over the top pour, once it is fully hard and tack-free, I stippled gel gloss medium available at craft stores. A light layer painted over the epoxy, and then lightly stippled using the applicator's side, will look great once you let it dry completely. My gel medium took about four days before the very thickest parts went from white to clear.
Crandell
I use Envirotex Lite. I went to the www.acmoore.com web site and printed the 40% off coupon, and bought the large size kit. That was about 5 years ago, and I've done numerous projects with it. I've still got about a quarter of it left, too. To me, that's important, because it seems to have a very long shelf life and has shown no sign of deterioration, either on the layout or in the bottle.
After we talk about which "water" we use, though, the conversation usually turns to the important part - preparation of the base before the pours, and detailing of the edges afterwards. That's where good water features are made.
But, do not be paranoid like I was. I thought I'd really mess up and have to rip everything up. As it turns out, my first effort above is still the best, and I haven't been able to do as well since.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I tried the WS Realistic Water product for an open top water tank structure project. I was not at all pleased with the results! It has been several years since I gave up on this project yet the WS Realistic Water still hasn't completely cured. Dust that falls into the water tank is eventually absorbed into the water surface and cannot be removed. Likewise, any object that might fall onto the water slowly sinks into the surface. I had dropped the water spout into the tank just to keep it with the tank and later found that the spout had sunk into the surface and partially stuck after some time. Fortunately, I was able to wiggle the spout loose once I discovered the problem and the resulting divot eventually leveled out again. I have not attempted to use this product again.
I now use Modge Podge Gloss Medium to create water. It gives a nice hard and shiny surface and is thick enough to create ripples in the surface. There are various brands of Gloss Medium available plus Gloss Gel can be used should more defined water effects are desired. This Modge Podge products are relatively inexpensive, too.
Hornblower
hornblower I tried the WS Realistic Water product for an open top water tank structure project. I was not at all pleased with the results! It has been several years since I gave up on this project yet the WS Realistic Water still hasn't completely cured. Dust that falls into the water tank is eventually absorbed into the water surface and cannot be removed. Likewise, any object that might fall onto the water slowly sinks into the surface. I had dropped the water spout into the tank just to keep it with the tank and later found that the spout had sunk into the surface and partially stuck after some time. Fortunately, I was able to wiggle the spout loose once I discovered the problem and the resulting divot eventually leveled out again. I have not attempted to use this product again. I now use Modge Podge Gloss Medium to create water. It gives a nice hard and shiny surface and is thick enough to create ripples in the surface. There are various brands of Gloss Medium available plus Gloss Gel can be used should more defined water effects are desired. This Modge Podge products are relatively inexpensive, too.
Hornblower -- what you're referring to as problem with the WS product is actually a design feature. The stuff is supposed to be "self healing". My son left a Matchbox bus on his lake one time, and it did, indeed, sink in. However, once we pulled it out, the lake leveled out again in about a week.
A cloth moistened with Windex used once a month will cure the dust issue.
And to answer the OP's question: for actual effects (waterfalls, etc.) I use acrylic gloss gel, widely available at art and craft stores.
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"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
CTValleyRR Hornblower -- what you're referring to as problem with the WS product is actually a design feature. The stuff is supposed to be "self healing". My son left a Matchbox bus on his lake one time, and it did, indeed, sink in. However, once we pulled it out, the lake leveled out again in about a week.
Isn't that prototypical?
richhotrain CTValleyRR Hornblower -- what you're referring to as problem with the WS product is actually a design feature. The stuff is supposed to be "self healing". My son left a Matchbox bus on his lake one time, and it did, indeed, sink in. However, once we pulled it out, the lake leveled out again in about a week. Isn't that prototypical? Rich
Yes, but real water takes much longer than a week.
Eh? You modeling the Gowanus Canal. That is one of my projects.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I think that Selector is referring to "bubbly creek" just outside of the Stock Yards in 1950's Chicago - - perfect for my layout era and location.
Call me "old school" but I have had excellent success with simply making the stream bed out of plywood that I seal with a thin coat of spackle and the paint approprately with black for the deepest part and sand color by the shore with blue and green blended in as appropriatley and rocks and debris added as appropriate. I simulate falls with clear tape and "rapids" with plastic wrap glued to the base.
I cover the whole thing (including the "tape falls") with gloss media in several layers. When dry I use white paint to simulate "white water" and apply another layer of gloss media. The gloss media doesn't "leak out" and drys appropriately "wavy". It may not be the best method to simulate absolutely flat still water, but everything I use is water soluable, cleans up easily, has little to no odor, and absolutely no toxic fumes, and best of all, you don't have to worry about making the scenery absolutely watertight. My water scenery is 23 years old and looks as good today as when I built it. If it gets dusty, it cleans up well with a damp paper towel after vacuuming.
Little Tommy
Like Tommy, I use plaster (Durabond 90) over plywood, then latex house paint and water-based high gloss urethane.
Wayne
I have used fiberglass resin to make both a lake and river at one time. Lasted about 10 years but eventually dust stuck in and it also began to peel back along the edges. I've also used gloss varnish and mod podge for water. For the most part, I've found for me that for water that would be more than a few inches deep (like a creek), the high tech products are actually harder to use than plaster & paint. Because you have to work at tinting them for depth and do multiple pours.
Now, with all that said, Wayne, you should do a how to article on your rivers. Your second picture of the muddy river with wake and eddies captures the fast moving river after a storm better than any I've been able to accomplish. Reminds me of the bridge I fished under as a kid.
Thanks for your kind words, JMBJMB.
Actually, it's pretty easy, as the muddy river was my first attempt. I first sprayed the plywood river bed with wet water, to prevent it from drawing too much water out of the Durabond, then mixed a fairly stiff (not quite as stiff as peanut butter) batch of plaster, as it's meant to look like it's moving but didn't need much in the way of waves. I use Durabond90, as its 90 minute setting time allows it to be spread and worked almost up to the point where it starts to set. The river here is at the point where it empties into Lake Erie, so I didn't carry the muddy effect as far into the lake as it would likely go in real life, but I think that it's fairly effective.
The plaster was spread with a drywall knife, leaving the knife marks to depict movement (the bridge was removed for river construction and remains removable for cleaning), then, as the plaster began to set, I used a small drywall knife to tease-up the eddies around the bridge piers. The plaster is probably no more than 1/8" thick over the entire river. I left it to cure for a couple of days, then applied flat interior latex house paint using a 2" or 3" brush. The dark grey/green is the same colour I use for background trees, and the "mud" is the colour used for all of the layout's plaster landforms, before any ground foam or other material is applied. I applied the colours "wet" so that they'd blend somewhat where they met, then used a 1/2" or 3/4" brush to add a little Pollyscale Reefer White to the rough water around the piers. After allowing everything to dry for a couple days, I applied three coats of water-based high gloss clear urethane, following the manufacturers directions on times between coats: this is crucial, as too long between coats requires the surface to be sanded - not very easy to sand water, and especially when it's rough.
Both the finish and the Durabond are extremely durable, with cameras often placed atop the water to allow some unique views. The only maintenance required is an occasional dusting. One of the other nice things about Durabond is that I can be mixed to any consistency and will still set-up, and the applications can be applied as thick or thin as necessary, without fear of it cracking. I have a small inlet of the lake where the "water" is over 1" deep, done in one pour.
Here's the river during a dry spell:
...and as seen later, from the air:
A friend took this photo with the camera on the river's surface, placed between the bridge and the backdrop:
Wayne,
Sorry this is late. Simply stunning. What an amazing job you've done. Actually, many of the modeling on this thread is simply astonishing. Obviously over time experience is gained. I've noticed it with my current project. Oh, how we learn from experience! Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for your very kind words, RC.
My kudos, too, Wayne, for your excellent depiction of a small (selectively compressed? ) Midwest river. Really nice work and totally credible.
I model Colorado, so need something a little different. Here are a few pics of past and recent work. I use stinky ol' polyester casting resin. After bouncing around ideas in a discussion with some of my narrowgauge buddies, I came up with what turned out to be a pretty good solution if you need some whitewater.
It's called "Dimensional Silicone" (http://www.decoratorssolution.com/silicone.html). I used the clear, which can be mixed with food color, per the package. I used cheap plain white acrylic paint, added just a few drops and stirred it up. It's kinda like spreading peanut butter. Here''s a before and after pic.
The overall effect is pretty good here. This creek is outflow from a series of high falls up the mountain. It's just paint and gloss medium. Here's some more dramatic stuff, including a nice shot of Cascade Falls, which was formed from an armature made of polyfibre pillow stuffing, a 0.010" styrene former, and clear plastic wrap that kept the backside from sticking to my surrounding Rubber Rocks cliffs.
The overall effect is pretty good here.
This creek is outflow from a series of high falls up the mountain. It's just paint and gloss medium. Here's some more dramatic stuff, including a nice shot of Cascade Falls, which was formed from an armature made of polyfibre pillow stuffing, a 0.010" styrene former, and clear plastic wrap that kept the backside from sticking to my surrounding Rubber Rocks cliffs.
This creek is outflow from a series of high falls up the mountain. It's just paint and gloss medium.
Here's some more dramatic stuff, including a nice shot of Cascade Falls, which was formed from an armature made of polyfibre pillow stuffing, a 0.010" styrene former, and clear plastic wrap that kept the backside from sticking to my surrounding Rubber Rocks cliffs.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL