PRR1 One thing that I did not mention. This is going to be free standing, no attachment to walls. The layout will be around three walls, and then a peninsula that will extend from one wall to another wall. I will have a drop down so that the layout can be continuous with an open area in the middle. This way no duck under. The peninsula can only be 2 feet wide at maximum due to space restrictions. 1/2" plywood should be strong enough for this,correct? Jim
One thing that I did not mention. This is going to be free standing, no attachment to walls. The layout will be around three walls, and then a peninsula that will extend from one wall to another wall. I will have a drop down so that the layout can be continuous with an open area in the middle. This way no duck under. The peninsula can only be 2 feet wide at maximum due to space restrictions. 1/2" plywood should be strong enough for this,correct?
Jim
That is why I suggested the 1/2" "L" shaped plywood legs. They will be much more ridged than 2' X 2". They work just like a steel beam where the top and bottom cap keeps the web straight and the web takes the load. The "L" shape legs work the same way. Since my layout won't be moved, I put a short piece of 2"X2" at the floor inside the "L" and adjust the height (no adjusters they can induce movement) then screw the block in place. Depending on how often you want to move, the legs could be bolted to the inside corner of the top ladder or box. If the layout won't be secured to the walls, any joint that that allows the smallest movement will cause the platform to shake if it is touched. Even with the weight and rigidity of my 5' X 30' a car can jump the track if the layout is bumped too hard. I glue everything that will not have to be taken apart.
There is no one way to build anything. Use what works best for you.
Lee
MisterBeasley, you are the second person that I know of that did that with their layout in regards to foam positioning. I like that idea.
Once again........please refer to my ..... Layout Extension thread http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/209072.aspx
Dennis Blank Jr.
CEO,COO,CFO,CMO,Bossman,Slavedriver,Engineer,Trackforeman,Grunt. Birdsboro & Reading Railroad
PRR1 I see that maybe I am confusing people with the usage of the 3/4" plywood. It was only going to be used for the outside frame and two inside cross braces. On top of that I was just going to put the foam, not another layer of 3/4" wood. That would definitely make it too heavy. Perhaps 1/2" x 4 sides should be used instead. It is only for light weight usage. I keep thinking in line with heavy duty like workbenches. Jim
I see that maybe I am confusing people with the usage of the 3/4" plywood. It was only going to be used for the outside frame and two inside cross braces. On top of that I was just going to put the foam, not another layer of 3/4" wood. That would definitely make it too heavy. Perhaps 1/2" x 4 sides should be used instead. It is only for light weight usage. I keep thinking in line with heavy duty like workbenches.
Hi Jim
There is nothing wrong with any of the suggestion posted so far. I also have wood working equipment left over from my contracting days.Being frugal I have used a lot of left over material, but two by fours are a bit of over kill for a layout.For framing 3/4" plywood is great, "L" shaped, legs ETC. Even 1/2" plywood is very strong for something like this, when glued and nailed it will hold anything you want..My layout is 30' X 5' and is a beam and joist construction using a mix of dimensional lumber and plywood. the last extension I built I used 3/4" plywood for almost everything. I think if it were me and I wanted to move the modal, I would make the whole thing out of 1/2" plywood, box type with "L" legs. All pieces ripped out of the plywood glued and nailed. Want it fancy? Use birch plywood.
Have fun
On Phase 1 of my layout, I used Masonite outside the foam as fascia for a finished look. For Phase 2, though, I recessed the 2-inch foam into the benchwork so it was only 1 inch above the wood frame, and then I cut the foam at the edges so I had a rolled or sloped edge right down to the wood. I applied scenic material to the foam, and I didn't need any fascia at all.
I like this look better than fascia. I used 1x4 pine for the outer frame, and 1x3 pine for the inner supports. By mounting the 1x3s level with the bottom of the 1x4s, I had a frame where the foam nestled nicely in without any additional effort.
This layout has no plywood beneath the 2 inches of foam. It's plenty strong for trains. I have no plans to climb on the layout. When you've got foam, you can't climb on it anyway - your weight will crush the foam.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
What I am about to say is a heresy on the forum but 3 sections of my layout are 4' X 4' with 1/4 inch ply. Lionel trains were run on them for years and I probably crawled on them as a child.
Now I have foam board on top and have added sections with just the foam board.
IMO heavy plywood is an over kill.
Bob.
Don't Ever Give Up
PRR1 Originally I was not planning on putting any plywood under the foam. Would it not be harder to put wiring through to the track? Without plywood you could stab holes through the foam and thread wire through. Jim
Originally I was not planning on putting any plywood under the foam. Would it not be harder to put wiring through to the track? Without plywood you could stab holes through the foam and thread wire through.
I'm with Jim on NOT using plywood under the foam. It DOES make wiring a real pain. I ended up "Swiss-cheesing" the plywood when I used it under foam. I made a "sewing needle tool" for threading the wire through foam.
The "needle" can then be pushed through the foam and pulled through. Since I only use this for feeders, which are 22-24 gauge wire, the holes in the needle are plenty big.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Jim, you will find that the 1.5" extruded foam is quite stiff, with 2" being very stiff. About all you need under it, between the two or three joists on which the foam will rest inside your outer box framework, and the foam itself is maybe 1/8" or 1/4" wall board/masonite/plywood for the sake of protecting the belly of the foam. Naturally, on top of the foam is all you wish to display...your handiwork, and you would know best how to keep its integrity when you are either handling it, transporting it, or displaying it in public.
If you expect to move this frequently, best to make it strong and light. 1/2" plywood is strong in widths over 5", but as expressed by someone above, your legs would be much lighter, and still plenty strong, with 2.5-3" wide lengths in 5/8" ply or even 3/4" if you already have it and can't return it.
Please, do NOT use 3/4" ply under your foam. If you can't lift a full sheet of 3/4" ply with ease now, what you cut and place as you seem to intend, plus all the rest of the benchwork, will weigh about as much. How will you horse that around easily and keep the integrity of the jewelry up top?
As I stated, legs of 1X2 spruce or pine, blocked and screwed where they abut the corners of the framework, and braced, will be hugely capable of doing all you need of it. More importantly as time goes on, it will be light. any 3/4" ply will be much denser and heavy.
As for your height question, four feet is about right so that you can provide a low stool for boys and girls over 4' to view the goings-on nicely, and still allow you to get lower and enjoy the view as they do.
Crandell
My layout legs are all 2X4's but that's only because I had a bunch of 2x4 left overs from finishing the basement the winter before. Waste not want not as they say. Because I have a full blown wood working shop I always have left overs from other projects. Comes in handy
CDN Dennis
Modeling the HO scale something or other RR in the shadow of the Canadian Rockies Alberta, Canada
I wish to tha[nk all of you for your comments. Not having done this before, I was not quite certain what sizes I should use. n the books that I had seen they always mention 1" stock which would be 3/4" thick. That is why I thought 3/4" thickness was preferred for the table part of benchwork.
4" of foam on the entire layout is a waste of material. If you have a hilly/mountainous terrain you likely will have to cut away and waste more material than just building up the areas you want raised with small pieces and scraps. If you want to contour down in a few places 1" or 2" base should be plenty.
I'm with COWMAN & others on this one. You're not putting a roof on a house to support a 3 foot snow load. It's only small model trains, scenery and track that you are supporting.
The legs only require 3" wide lengths of 3/4" plywood strips glued and screwed at 90 degrees to each other and a 6" to 8" length of 2" X 2" at the bottom, glued and screwed and centre drilled to accept the aforementioned levelling bolts and T-Nuts to adjust your finished height.
The side frames only require the same 3" wide strips of plywood along the sides with the same 3" vertical stretchers from front to back every 16" to 20"s to support a cheap sheet of 1/4" plywood for your table top. You can then glue your sheets of pink or blue Styrofoam to the plywood using the appropriate adhesive.
This was close to what I did except I used standard lengths of 1" X 3" finished hobby pine boards from Home Depot to build my frame and legs. the nominal size of 1" X 3" pine boards is actually 3/4" X 2 & 3/4"s.
After I got the first 3' X 6' table built, I decided to use it to sort out my 35 to 40 year old collection of Model Railroader, N Scale Magazine, Railroad Model Craftsman and assorted other railroad themed books and magazines. That table probably had close to 400 pounds of paper piled on it for several weeks before I got it into some semblence of order. I was expecting to have to level the top after the mess was cleared off, but lo and behold, when I put my level on the table there was no noticeable deflection from level in any direction.
In my opinion, unless you are planning on running something larger than G Guage trains, 2" X 4" legs and 3/4" plywood table tops are overkill to the extreme and definitly a waste of resources. This is just my worth from my experiences. As has been repeated MANY times on these Forums. It's your layout, who are we to tell you that you are doing it wrong. If you're having fun, you're doing something right.
Have fun.
Blue Flamer.
Actually as already stated, at 24" width, you really don't need the plywood base at all. I would suggest at least placing 1/4" to aid in mounting of the Switch motors. Using 4" of foam may also create issue w/ the throw wire of the Tortoise even going to the heavier wire. 2" of foam will work, if you need scenery to drop lower than that,, incorporate this elevation into the benchwork (notching joists/ installing narrower ones) or place between joists. I assume you are refering to deep gullies, canyons, rivers etc.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
The reason why I was planning on using 3/4" plywood was due to a suggestion from another model railroader. Of course, I believe that he used his benchwork for displays at shows. He said that it was rugged. Concerning the 2 ply of foam, it is not for strength. It is primarily for cuts for stream beds and other surface features. That way I do not have to make raised surfaces.
Why do you feel you need 3/4" plywood under 4" of foam? At the width you are planning, you shouldn't have to climb on the bench work. A number of folks use only 2" foam with some cross support (16"or 24" on center), others put 1/4" plywood under the foam for protection. It will add weight and expense.
Have fun,
Richard
Hi,
See my thread called "Layout Extension"
I used 1/2" Maple/Birch plywood ripped 3" wide.
Do you feel that 4" is a good size for height for the plywood? i was also wondering if the 2x4's were not overkill. Thanks for the suggestion of 1x2's for everyone. And I agree with doing a jig.
Braced 1X2 will work well and is less costly. Even if you expect to have to get up on the framework in places to do work, braced 1X2 is plenty strong to support you. It helps to have it well blocked where it meets the frame-proper, too. Where it makes sense, back the frame against a wall for even better support.
Crandell.
What I use is 1/8" masonite (tempered hardboard from you local big box store) for a fascia to cover both the benchwork and the foam. You can contour it with a jig saw to match cuts you make in the pink foam. It is flexible and can be curved pretty easily as well. I use it for fascias and for backdrops.
I have a very similar setup for my layout. It allowed me to assemble the entire framework for the layout in two weekends.
I would suggest making a jig to hold all you boards square while you secure them together. I also suggest getting a hole saw and drilling holes in the width-wise boards. This gives you a clean method of running wires throughout the layout. Another suggestion is getting some T-nuts and some carriage bolts for the bottoms of the 2X4 legs. I use 5/16 T-nuts and 5/16" X 3" long carriage bolts. This will allow you to easily level the layout sections. I would only install legs on one end of each section (except for a master module that would have legs on both ends) This also makes it easier to level each section.
My website has more detail on my construction methods. You can see what I have done here.
At the time of this photo I had not installed the upper level yet. It is hung using heavy duty shelving brackets.
Colorado Front Range Railroad: http://www.coloradofrontrangerr.com/
Thin plywood would work. The most typical fascia trim appears to be hardboard, usually 1/8" tempered (Masonite or equal).
I suggest reconsidering the 2x4 legs: that is overkill. My benchwork is prefab Sievers which uses 48" 1x4 legs (cross-braced). It is quite rigid and the legs accept the inserts for levelers at the bottom. Another common leg is an L-shaped member comprised of 2-1x2s or 1x3s (sometimes a short 2x2 is nested in the base of the leg to accept the levelers).
Dante
A few months ago I had started a post asking about prefab benchwork, and got many responses about prefab and make your own. Due to many other obligations, work and finishing the train room, I am finally getting back to the benchwork. I have decided o make my own. The main structure will be made of 3/4" oak plywood cut to 4" height, 48" long. Max width will be 24". Legs will be 2x4, 40" high. After the benchwork is completed, I will be adding 2 layers of pink foam for a thickness of 4". This way if I wish to carve in a small stream bed, I have depth. A question I have is how to cover up the edge of the foam that will be exposed on top of the benchwork. What do you recommend? Thin plywood?
Thanks