Alex,
The next time some one posts a question about ballasting you can tell him all he needs to know.
Great job
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
Modelling HO Scale with a focus on the West and Midwest USA
The foam brush as pictured is an alternative to a bristle brush. It is cut down so as to fit between the rails. The tapered shape is good for grooming the ballast on the out side of the rails.
I like to use it to also tamp down the ballast and to take care of stray ballast before wetting
Try it and you will like it.
I use a paper cup to dump ballast between the rails, moving along as the cup empties. There's usually enough ballast to also do the area outside the rails and the shoulders of the cork, but it's easy to dump more where it's needed. I use a 1/2" soft brush to distribute the ballast, dragging it along it the direction of the as-yet un-ballasted track. Don't use the brush as you would when painting, though: Instead, hold it almost parallel to the track, and drag the ballast along. This prevents the bristles from catching on the ties, then flinging the particles of ballast all over the place when they break free. Once you've established a suitable depth for the ballast, lay the handle of the brush across the track so that it's resting on the rails, then, while loosely gripping the ferrule of the brush with one hand and moving along the track, tap the brush's handle rapidly using the fingers of your free hand. Any ballast sitting atop the ties or clinging to the rails will "magically" bounce into the spaces between the ties.
To wet the ballast, I use a large sprayer which produces a high volume of fine mist, aiming the first few spritzes upward and allowing the mist to simply fall. One the ballast is damp, it can be sprayed directly, and I spray until there's water in the lineside ditches. Usually, I also apply the ground cover alongside the track when ballasting, so that the entire right-of-way gets sceniced at the same time. I use a plastic squeeze bottle to apply the thinned white glue, and usually do 10' or 12' of track at a time. Turnouts take a little longer, but this is all easy work and you should be able to ballast 50' or 60' of track during a relaxing session.
It takes a lot of "wet" water and a lot of diluted white glue to affix all this stuff in place:
Wayne
yankee flyer Hey One of the "tricks" I found that helps to not splash soft water all over the place is to use one of the Misters in the kit for cleaning glasses. It puts out a very fine mist and you can confine the mist to just track right of way. One of the things I haven't solved is the static electricity on the brush which lifts the ballast up on top of the ties. My ballast is probably walnut shells. Anyone have a solution for that? Lee
Hey
One of the "tricks" I found that helps to not splash soft water all over the place is to use one of the Misters in the kit for cleaning glasses. It puts out a very fine mist and you can confine the mist to just track right of way.
One of the things I haven't solved is the static electricity on the brush which lifts the ballast up on top of the ties. My ballast is probably walnut shells.
Anyone have a solution for that?
Lee
Static electricity is pretty easy to cure. Make sure it's a stiff bristled brush, then dip it in liquid fabric softener (Febreze, Downy, etc.) and let it dry. That will usually kill the static electricity.
FWIW, if you have problems with shag carpeting generating static electricity in the winter, spraying it with undiluted fabric softener works for that too.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
superbe IMO using an eye dropper or a pipette is best for applying the wetting agent. Doing it this way gets the wetting agent down deep in the ballast. Srpaying covers the surface well but not down deep. For the first time your ballast looks pretty darn good, just a little too much between the rails which causes it to get on the ties. Before applying the glue mixture take the time to knock off the pieces of ballast from the ties and especially the rails as has been mentioned. Bob
IMO using an eye dropper or a pipette is best for applying the wetting agent. Doing it this way gets the wetting agent down deep in the ballast. Srpaying covers the surface well but not down deep.
For the first time your ballast looks pretty darn good, just a little too much between the rails which causes it to get on the ties. Before applying the glue mixture take the time to knock off the pieces of ballast from the ties and especially the rails as has been mentioned.
I use an old glue bottle, but the effect is the same. I can get the nose right down there and just dribble it on. Acceleration due to Gravity = 0, Force =mass x acceleration where a=0, F=0. 'Nuff said.
CTValleyRRAlex -- I agree that your ballasting efforts don't look as bad as you make them out to be. It looks like you used a little too much, and you hit it a little too hard with whatever you used to put down wetting agent and adhesive (a sprayer, perhaps). After your ballast is well saturated with glue, you can use pretty much any metal implement (I use an artists palette knife, which is like an extremely flexible spatula) to smooth out the rough spots. If you have a hole after it's dry, you can patch these with little spots of ballast, wetted and glued in the same way as the original.
Alex --
I agree that your ballasting efforts don't look as bad as you make them out to be.
It looks like you used a little too much, and you hit it a little too hard with whatever you used to put down wetting agent and adhesive (a sprayer, perhaps).
After your ballast is well saturated with glue, you can use pretty much any metal implement (I use an artists palette knife, which is like an extremely flexible spatula) to smooth out the rough spots.
If you have a hole after it's dry, you can patch these with little spots of ballast, wetted and glued in the same way as the original.
Lee:
Try using a foam brush. I've found using them greatly diminished the "pickup" problem you mentioned.
Joe
After the balast is dry, but not fully cured yet, take an old kitchen sponge, one that is used and hardened. Run it over your ties to remove the excess balast. then vacuum up the residue.
xdfordalexstanProblem is, all these brands you guys are all talking about, I have not seen them here in Australia before. Hi Alex, Where abouts are you in Oz.? I'm in Melton in Victoria and I have bought rock ballast from Train World in Brighton in the past and I'm sure there are plenty of sources of rock based ballast... PM me if you want to follow up and we can check what is available here, Regards Trevor www.xdford.digitalzones.com for your interest
alexstanProblem is, all these brands you guys are all talking about, I have not seen them here in Australia before.
Hi Alex,
Where abouts are you in Oz.? I'm in Melton in Victoria and I have bought rock ballast from Train World in Brighton in the past and I'm sure there are plenty of sources of rock based ballast...
PM me if you want to follow up and we can check what is available here,
Regards
Trevor www.xdford.digitalzones.com for your interest
twcenterprises Once the ballast was spread, lightly brushed, and ready for glue, I had to practice and experiment a bit. My first few efforts weren't as successful. I found that I needed more than just a few drops of liquid dish detergent to break the surface tension of water so as to pre-wet the ballast. A mister helped prevent the washing of dry ballast. Alcohol does the same, without the surface tension of water. I learned that using the glue sparingly will leave you a "crust" of glued ballast on top, and loose under that. Glue is cheap. Use a lot.
Once the ballast was spread, lightly brushed, and ready for glue, I had to practice and experiment a bit. My first few efforts weren't as successful. I found that I needed more than just a few drops of liquid dish detergent to break the surface tension of water so as to pre-wet the ballast. A mister helped prevent the washing of dry ballast. Alcohol does the same, without the surface tension of water. I learned that using the glue sparingly will leave you a "crust" of glued ballast on top, and loose under that. Glue is cheap. Use a lot.
Excellent advice there. Saturate your ballast until the glue mixture oozes out the sides.
wp8thsub alexstanI'm using the Woodland Scenics stuff, apparently you guys say it's made from walnut shells? It's the only stuff in the LHS... Ahhh... I suspected this was the case, and yes I believe it's crushed walnut shells. The results you're getting look quite similar to typical WS ballast applications I see. It's mostly the product - not you. Honestly, it doesn't look THAT bad. Try using your fingers, or a piece of something soft like balsa wood, and try to rub the excess from the tops of the ties and sides of the rails. Touch up any places where the paint is damaged in the process. What you have does look salvageable. For the future, one way to avoid the floating that appears to be the cause of the problem is to ensure you're wetting the ballast enough for glue to be absorbed, but not so much there isn't sufficient pore space left for the glue to soak in too. Sometimes that can be a balancing act. Good luck.
alexstanI'm using the Woodland Scenics stuff, apparently you guys say it's made from walnut shells? It's the only stuff in the LHS...
Ahhh... I suspected this was the case, and yes I believe it's crushed walnut shells. The results you're getting look quite similar to typical WS ballast applications I see. It's mostly the product - not you.
Honestly, it doesn't look THAT bad. Try using your fingers, or a piece of something soft like balsa wood, and try to rub the excess from the tops of the ties and sides of the rails. Touch up any places where the paint is damaged in the process. What you have does look salvageable.
For the future, one way to avoid the floating that appears to be the cause of the problem is to ensure you're wetting the ballast enough for glue to be absorbed, but not so much there isn't sufficient pore space left for the glue to soak in too. Sometimes that can be a balancing act. Good luck.
I agree with this assessment. Your photo of the ballasted track looks quite similar to mine. I think that your effort looks pretty good. But, like me, you put down just a little too much ballast. You just need a little less.
One other thing to be careful about is ballasting stick to the inside of the rails. That is a sure recipe for derailments. That is one more reason to keep the amount of ballast sparse between the rails.
Rich
Alton Junction
wp8thsubalexstanI'm using the Woodland Scenics stuff, apparently you guys say it's made from walnut shells? It's the only stuff in the LHS... Ahhh... I suspected this was the case, and yes I believe it's crushed walnut shells. The results you're getting look quite similar to typical WS ballast applications I see. It's mostly the product - not you. Honestly, it doesn't look THAT bad. Try using your fingers, or a piece of something soft like balsa wood, and try to rub the excess from the tops of the ties and sides of the rails. Touch up any places where the paint is damaged in the process. What you have does look salvageable. For the future, one way to avoid the floating that appears to be the cause of the problem is to ensure you're wetting the ballast enough for glue to be absorbed, but not so much there isn't sufficient pore space left for the glue to soak in too. Sometimes that can be a balancing act. Good luck.
I've used both the W/S brand, as well as "real ballast". I went to a quarry where CSX gets real ballast, and bought some 200 pounds of "sand" (I forget the specific grade of the material I bought). I ran it though a couple different sizes of screen sifters to get a "ballast size", separating the rest into separate containers. I ran a magnet over and through to remove any magnetic particles. The color was fairly uniform, so I mixed it roughly 2/3 - 1/3 with W/S grey for a mix that "looked about right" to me.
I don't have a layout in the ballast stage at this point, but I've learned from quite a few mistakes in the past. I'd not hesitate to use the W/S ballast again, if that's what I had on hand. I prefer the "heft" of real material myself, but if it's a portable layout, weight might be a concern.
Brad
EMD - Every Model Different
ALCO - Always Leaking Coolant and Oil
CSX - Coal Spilling eXperts
Rob Spangler
wp8thsubalexstanProblem is, all these brands you guys are all talking about, I have not seen them here in Australia before. Good to know. What are you using, and do you know what it's made of? Is it rock?
Good to know. What are you using, and do you know what it's made of? Is it rock?
Just a gee-whiz on cost:
As of today, the 32 oz. size of Woodland Scenics ballast at Scenic Express is $11.99 http://www.sceneryexpress.com/products.asp?dept=1108&pagenumber=2&sort_on=&sort_by= , while the same size container of real rock ballast under the Scenic Express brand is $11.98 http://www.sceneryexpress.com/products.asp?dept=1107&pagenumber=2&sort_on=&sort_by=.
At least that brand of the "good stuff" is virtually identical in cost to WS. My bet is the widespread availability of WS brand in stores, to the exclusion of other brands in so many cases, solely explains its prevalence on layouts. Lots of people are simply unaware there are alternatives.
And yes, it's possible to get good results from WS brand, as I have, and both CT Valley and Wayne have noted. Unfortunately, for many modelers, WS brand seems harder to use. It's more finicky to wet and glue even for me, and I've had much experience building scenery and ballasting track, going back many years. Beginners and other less experienced modelers frequently state that ballasting is among the hardest tasks in the hobby, and I can't help but think the use of WS ballast is a big part of that.
This isn't to say the OP's trouble stemmed from using WS, but I have a hunch...
I've never had any problems with WS ballast floating, either, and as CTVALLEYRR noted, the secret is in the wetting. I use ordinary tap water with a few drops of liquid dish detergent added, and even ground foam won't float away.
While my layout has been done using WS ballast, a friend gave me several large containers of real limestone ballast, in fine, medium, and coarse sizes. It looks fantastic, although it doesn't match what's already in place. I plan on using some of it to ballast the yet-to-be-built tracks of an interchange partner, while the rest will serve as "live" hopper and gondola loads from an as-yet unbuilt quarry:
While he had to screen it himself, total cost was $5.00 for half a ton.
rgengineoiler I have been using Highball for years. Real rock that if wet properly won't float. Doug
I have been using Highball for years. Real rock that if wet properly won't float. Doug
As with everything else in our hobby, There are tradeoffs. For my money, the extra expense isn't worth it. You can keep WS ballast from floating, too, as I describe above, but improperly wetted ballast of any composition -- rock, walnut shells, whatever -- WILL float in the adhesive mixture.
I have both WS and Highball ballast on my current layout. They're visually indistinguishable. I went back to WS after deciding that the extra $$$ wasn't really buying me anything. Besides, the OP didn't mention what he was using, and it's a good bet, given the availability of the WS product at retail stores, that's what he has.
So, noting that there are more expensive alternatives with which he may have better luck is good advice; suggesting that he throw out his existing supply and go get some "better" stuff, not so much (and no, I'm not suggesting that anyone above either said or implied this... before anyone gets bent out of shape).
I have been using Scenic Express real stone ballast on my On30 PC & KC RR. It works just great. I had gotten very tired of the "lightness" of Woodland Scenics ballast.
CTValleyRRSometimes, if you don't wet it properly, it FLOATS up there when you put the adhesive on.
This is a real problem with poor quality ballast like Woodland Scenics. It's made from walnut shells and behaves very differently from ballast made of real rock. A product like Scenic Express, Highball or Arizona Rock is much less likely to be displaced when wetting or gluing.