Cuyama and DSO17,
My calcs were made from Reading Co drawings and also city maps. Street widths and building lines shown.
DSO17, I believe they call them "swivel couplers". Diesel switchers with these could handle a tighter radius with these.
From the RDG Co Locomotive diagram book, an ALCO S-1 "equipped with a swivel coupler will permit locomotive to operate on a 60 ft radius curve with a car." 60 ft radius in HO scale is 8.275 inches. I do not think even my ATLAS S-1 will do that
RDG1519 Gents, As to tight radius mentioned earlier. I have calculated radius as tight as 12 inch (HO) going into an industry track. This is on maps showing Reading Company trackage on American St, Willow and Noble Streets and the Delaware water front in Philly. Most switchers could handle this. In the world of 40 foot boxcars this would be no problem. If the loco could not handle the tight radius than they would use other frieght cars in between. The old Alco ads used to say the Alco switchers could go anywhere a 40 ft boxcar could go.
Gents,
As to tight radius mentioned earlier. I have calculated radius as tight as 12 inch (HO) going into an industry track. This is on maps showing Reading Company trackage on American St, Willow and Noble Streets and the Delaware water front in Philly. Most switchers could handle this. In the world of 40 foot boxcars this would be no problem. If the loco could not handle the tight radius than they would use other frieght cars in between. The old Alco ads used to say the Alco switchers could go anywhere a 40 ft boxcar could go.
Some of the Reading shifters used in Philadelphia had special couplers with a joint right behind the head to allow getting around a sharp curve.
One trick used by Conrail on former PRR street trackage in South Philly where a curve into a factory was too sharp to allow the engine to be coupled to the car was to kick the car around the curve and then run the engine around light, couple up and spot the car at the loading dock. Outbound cars were pulled around the curve with a cable kept at the factory for that purpose.
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cuyama BRAKIEAgain,the industry owns their siding not the serving railroad so,the railroad only maintains the switch and a few feet of track as needed and usually ends up being a low priority on the work orders especially if its a minor problem. Larry, you state that a lot as an absolute. It certainly is not always the case here in the west, where in some situations the railroad owns the industrial spur track and industries grow up along it. In fact, I know first-hand of similar situations in the east as well. So that may be correct most of the time, but it's not always true. Byron
BRAKIEAgain,the industry owns their siding not the serving railroad so,the railroad only maintains the switch and a few feet of track as needed and usually ends up being a low priority on the work orders especially if its a minor problem.
Larry, you state that a lot as an absolute. It certainly is not always the case here in the west, where in some situations the railroad owns the industrial spur track and industries grow up along it. In fact, I know first-hand of similar situations in the east as well. So that may be correct most of the time, but it's not always true.
Byron
Byron,In my 9 1/2 years I never heard of a railroad owned industrial siding-they own the industrial branch but,not the industry sidings there is many reasons for that to include liability and upkeep. I wouldn't know why a railroad would want to own track on private property.Something for me to research this winter or in the wee hours when I can't sleep..
I could mention using bad track as a reason to drop a occasional single car customer since all they would need to do is embargo the track as unsafe..
BTW..Usually when a industry switches from rail to truck the railroad usually removes the switch..I seen many such sidings in my travels and research on Bing and Goggle maps.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
RDG1519I have calculated radius as tight as 12 inch (HO) going into an industry track. This is on maps showing Reading Company trackage on American St, Willow and Noble Streets and the Delaware water front in Philly.
That certainly is not typical, although very tight curves existed in some places. Note that some railroad-developed track maps are not strictly to scale, so it can be misleading at times. Not saying that's the situation there, just making a general point.
RDG1519Another issue is trailing point turnouts on dual street trackage or dual track mainlines. Railroads worked real hard to eliminate facing point turnouts for the obvious safety reasons.
I think you'll find that the facing-point issue is typically a main track concern, not in industrial areas, which are very often (usually?) single track. As Larry notes, facing point or trailing point is meaningless on an out-and-back single track route where all the facing points become trailing points and vice-versa.
Another issue is trailing point turnouts on dual street trackage or dual track mainlines. Railroads worked real hard to eliminate facing point turnouts for the obvious safety reasons
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Actually a facing point siding was no problem..
We would simply switch the industry on our return trip since as one old line PRR conductor told me "we comin' back this a' way any how so,why bother to make a needless run around? I asked about the needed work-I was a rookie at the time and this was my third or fourth local and the first with this conductor-I was on the extra board and the regular brakeman marked off.
In the geographic areas discussed above, other than on a team track, I have yet to find two different industries served by the same siding that would require one company's cars to be moved while another is being switched. I am sure these situations existed but they would not be the preferred arrangement. If possible avoid them as it will make your operating session more enjoyable.
Another issue is trailing point turnouts on dual street trackage or dual track mainlines. Railroads worked real hard to eliminate facing point turnouts for the obvious safety reasons. Even to the extent of creating a switchback that was accessed through a trailing point turnout to serve an industry siding that would otherwise be a facing point.
Hope this is helpful, Chris
Just like avoiding costly infrastructure like expensive extra turnouts.
Paul
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Actually that was never a problem since the switch would be maintain as needed and since there was no high speed trains the maintenance was minimal at best.
Of course if the switch was on the main line then it would be inspected and maintain like any switch but,still no problem.
Again,the industry owns their siding not the serving railroad so,the railroad only maintains the switch and a few feet of track as needed and usually ends up being a low priority on the work orders especially if its a minor problem..
Hi gentlemen,
who is wise? I do agree with Byron and Larry a situation where cars are still emptied or loaded when other cars further down the spur will have to be spotted or picked up is a nasty one. The question is if this situation really is normal. As far as my knowledge and practical experience goes, RR-companies set a time frame for (un)loading; and penalties for not keeping it.
Long time ago, in the 60's I worked for the Fiat , the Italian Car Company, importer in the Netherlands. Every day at about 10AM open-autoracks and boxcars were brought in by a local. A company crew waiting to unload all cars the very same day. They had to be empty the next morning to be picked up by the RR again.
When all cars along a spur, or even on a switchback are being picked up or delivered by the same switcher, the job is not that tedious anymore. However looking back at some designs by David Barrow in the past, with a very short lead and a very long tail on many spots of a smallish layout, switching would, also to my taste, become tedious indeed, beside being unrealistic. A small relief yard or a long passing siding (run-around) nearby might be very helpful to relief the pain.
Looking at designs made by SteinJr or Byron Henderson I hardly see any switch-back, nor reliance on multiple industries along one spur. It is all about balance however. Railroad and industrial operations were planned. Loading and unloading times were part of that planning and of the resulting operating process. Just like avoiding costly infrastructure like expensive extra turnouts.
Going back to the photo in the original post, the freight house at Okuyama had that sawtooth arrangement, with each track having a capacity of five or more cars. Okuyama was/is a major junction, and the freight house was a break-bulk point. LCL was still a big piece of JNR business at the time.
The ultimate in shipping convenience has to be the Coors shipping department in Golden, CO. No turnouts, just a perfectly straight track. Each loading spot has a two-track transfer table. When a car is loaded, it's moved into line with the through track. A switcher pushes it off the transfer table and simultaneously pulls an empty onto the table. The table moves the new empty over to the loading dock and the switcher takes the load away. Unfortunately, the whole works is inside a building, so not very visible.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Stein,There's nothing to yield to my friend..
Allow me to give you a example how things can work.
I worked in a warehouse that received several boxcars a week and when the railroad switched out the cars I usually caught up on my paper work or watched the crew go about their work pulling and spotting cars.
I'm sure my foreman loved seeing me stand around at $18.85/hr for 15-45 minutes depending on the amount of switching but,nothing else I could do since we was a union shop and my class was" Class III forklift operator" which means my job was to load or unload boxcars since I was trained for that job..I was not allowed to leave my work area except on authorized breaks,go to the restroom or take my motor to the garage in order to switch propane tanks..It was company policy for the mechanic to check the fittings to insure they was tight after the operator switched out tanks.
Okay guys, I yield.
I tried to point out that at places where life moved a little slower, it wouldn't be such a big deal if you early in the morning or in the late afternoon or during the night moved say a grain car that hadn't been loaded yet to spot a car further in on the track, and then you re-spotted the grain car for loading the next morning before you left.
I am not suggesting that the railroad would routinely interrupt people who were in a rush to load or unload their car in order to spot a car for an industry further in on the same track.
I can see why that wouldn't fly.
Smile, Stein
cuyama In real life, there were certainly instances of multiple companies served along one spur. But that would be typically only switched once per day (or less often) and the cars would only be moved at a regular time (often the middle of the night) for which all the shippers and the railroad planned.
In real life, there were certainly instances of multiple companies served along one spur. But that would be typically only switched once per day (or less often) and the cars would only be moved at a regular time (often the middle of the night) for which all the shippers and the railroad planned.
I counted 13 locations in the LA JCT article where the car spots indicate multiple companies served along one spur. There are additional locations with multiple companies along a spur, where the spots indicate only one of the companies is served. There are also several locations where different sections of one company's facility are served by one long spur.
Serving such locations at a scheduled time that does not interfere with loading/unloading operations make sense.
I think multiple customer spurs might be more common in older industrial areas in cities (with a high consentration of businesses served), than in areas of less concentrated activity such as the smaller towns often represented on our model railroads.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
steinjr BRAKIE steinjr John Busby You don't shift one lot of cars out the way to get to a second industry it just doesn't happen in the real world. Era, location and amount of traffic dependant. Happened more in the first half of the 20th century, when there were more small shippers/consignees and more single carload traffic. Smile, Stein It can take a local 15-30 minutes to switch out cars at a industry.. I can't think of one industry that wants their forklift driver or unloading crew standing around with their hands in their pockets while the railroad switched another industry. Even back in the first half of the 20th century they didn't pay employees to mill about while a local crew switch out industries especially the union shops. Who said that the cars shifted were being actively loaded or unloaded at the time they needed to be shifted, or that the people unloading had nothing else to do if they had to take a 30 minute break? Smile, Stein
BRAKIE steinjr John Busby You don't shift one lot of cars out the way to get to a second industry it just doesn't happen in the real world. Era, location and amount of traffic dependant. Happened more in the first half of the 20th century, when there were more small shippers/consignees and more single carload traffic. Smile, Stein It can take a local 15-30 minutes to switch out cars at a industry.. I can't think of one industry that wants their forklift driver or unloading crew standing around with their hands in their pockets while the railroad switched another industry. Even back in the first half of the 20th century they didn't pay employees to mill about while a local crew switch out industries especially the union shops.
steinjr John Busby You don't shift one lot of cars out the way to get to a second industry it just doesn't happen in the real world. Era, location and amount of traffic dependant. Happened more in the first half of the 20th century, when there were more small shippers/consignees and more single carload traffic. Smile, Stein
John Busby You don't shift one lot of cars out the way to get to a second industry it just doesn't happen in the real world.
You don't shift one lot of cars out the way to get to a second industry it just doesn't happen in the real world.
Era, location and amount of traffic dependant. Happened more in the first half of the 20th century, when there were more small shippers/consignees and more single carload traffic.
It can take a local 15-30 minutes to switch out cars at a industry..
I can't think of one industry that wants their forklift driver or unloading crew standing around with their hands in their pockets while the railroad switched another industry.
Even back in the first half of the 20th century they didn't pay employees to mill about while a local crew switch out industries especially the union shops.
Who said that the cars shifted were being actively loaded or unloaded at the time they needed to be shifted, or that the people unloading had nothing else to do if they had to take a 30 minute break?
How about not having to pay a late fee because the unloading time is interrupted..What if the unloading crew/lift operator just came off break? Then there may be union work agreements and job classifications that must be followed or the company faces a employee grievance which could cost the company grievance pay.
steinjrWho said that the cars shifted were being actively loaded or unloaded at the time they needed to be shifted, or that the people unloading had nothing else to do if they had to take a 30 minute break?
It turns out that it's more than the time to actually move the car. We are talking about unrelated industries coordinating their activities (not for their own benefit) to insure that it is safe to move the impeding car -- which means that partially-loaded or -unloaded cars would need to have their loads temporarily secured and all personnel out of the way.
The logisitics of doing this (especially before cell phones and email coordination between companies) are very costly. What's the incentive for the industry whose car is partially loaded or unloaded to inconvenience themselves?
We do make some compromises on the model, but if the industries were reasonably busy in real life, the railroad would avoid having a situation where cars from an unrelated industry must be moved to switch another industry.
hi
The big thing with industrial tracks is that the shunting is done in a logical way.
Yet you see a lot of it on the model world.
Another thing that surprises me is the reluctance to use sharp curves to get into the industrial area. They can be in tight and awkward spots particularly if the industry was there first and the RR second.
Admittedly you have to be careful with sharp curves so your trains can get in and out without problems.
But there is a lot of sharp curved industrial trackage out there.
Remember we often have one and two car industries that in the real world would be serviced by road,and we service it by rail. So our empires have a reason to be there.
Its all compromise to get desirable operation on to our railroads.
regards John
If modeling the first half of the twentieth century, a much under-appreciated/modeled is the double ended siding. Nothing like being able to serve the industry from both directions.
Here in the mid-1950s on the Southern Pacific San Ramon Branch in Walnut Creek, CA:
Emphasis mine. Switchbacks with industries on each wing that must be emptied before an adjacent non-related industry may be switched are the switchbacks that I find unrealistic and tedious. And we can all agree that gimmick is way overused on model railroads.
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Agreed and my 9 1/2 years working as a brakeman I never seen 2 separate industries on one industrial siding or a switchback where a car at industry A needed moved in order to switch industry B...That's another model railroad track planing gimmick that IMHO should be forgotten.
I will also mention the industry owns their siding not the serving railroad.
In fact if a industry track becomes unsafe the serving railroad can and will embargo the industry track until its repaired..
In the original post and the drawing on the left, this arrangement would be used when a single industry has multiple spots. The cars spotted on the piece of track without the oval could be a spot where the spotting of cars has a different schedule than the ones with the oval. Railroads do not move cars that are being loaded or unloaded just to spot another one at a different place. The locomotive would work these as though they were not connected, but they have the option to push a car to the "next section" and access it from the industrial running track.
The center two are common in cities. Picture the "X" as in a street perpendicular to the street with the industrial running track. The space taken up by the "X" is in the street. This arrangement can be achieved on our model railroads and save space and also look interesting.
These situations existed on the Reading Company in the city of Philadelphia.
I know a lot of people disagree but operating a model railroad with sidings dedicated to each industry is a lot more fun than serving more than one industry on a single siding.
markpierceThought of you when I posted the Creal track schematic: you "hating" switchbacks. I think switchbacks are interesting/useful as long as industries aren't located on the tails and there is a logical reason for them, as opposed to switching puzzles..
That's why I posted my comments on Creal, so that someone reading this thread wouldn't misunderstand the reason those switchbacks are there (which, again, is to deal with elevation changes).
markpierce Thought of you when I posted the Creal track schematic: you "hating" switchbacks.
Thought of you when I posted the Creal track schematic: you "hating" switchbacks.
I don't think anyone "hates" switchback leads as such - if they have sufficient length for both loco, inbound and outbound cars at the same time, or if there is some convenient place nearby to leave the inbound cut of cars while you pull the outbound cut of cars.
What Byron has argued against is two things: - overly short switchback leads, so you have to shuttle e.g 5 cars from an industry track out one car at a time through a switchback lead just long enough for a loco and one car.
- having industries located along the short switchback lead as well, so you have to pull cars from the lead to create work space to go in and then start shuttling cars out of the industries one by one.
Anyways - having a crossover from one track to a parallel industry track with several customers along the industry track is reasonably prototypical and fun to switch, if not compressed too much. Say something like this:
In this case one wouldn't use the rightmost parts of the top and bottom track to switch the leftmost part of the track - the engine would stay at the left end all along, but one could access the innermost (rightmost) end of both tracks without disturbing cars at the outermost (leftmost) end of the tracks. Off spot cars could go on the center track. Fits about 20 40' cars, four industries, one with 8 spots, 2 with 5 spots, one with two spots (and located on the same track as another industry), and room for about half a dozen off spots. Not a switching puzzle - but there still is thinking involved in trying to switch the industries reasonably efficiently when some cars are to be pulled, some to be spotted and some to be put back afterwards if you need to move them to get at stuff behind them. And this is a pretty common track configuration for industry tracks running between two rows of warehouses.
Byron,
Thought of you when I posted the Creal track schematic: you "hating" switchbacks. I think switchbacks are interesting/useful as long as industries aren't located on the tails and there is a logical reason for them, as opposed to switching puzzles..
markpierceThis industrial-track arrangement for a cement plant is interesting..
Mark, as you probably know, the switchbacks at Creal are primarily due to elevation differences (as are many real-life switchbacks). Creal is literally in the middle of nowhere and if not for the elevation differences there would be no reason for all of the switchbacks.
cuyama DSchmittRarely modeled prototype industrial track arangements I noticed in article on LA Jct Railway by Charlie Slater in The Warbonnet , Third Quarter 2003 The first one on the left isn't really practical if only a single car is spotted where you placed the oval (and I don't think only a single car was placed there on the LAJ, from looking at the same article you cite). The second and fourth are reasonably common on model railroad designs. The third was pretty rare in real life except for very large installations because it adds two sets of points and two frogs and doesn't add much in switching flexibility versus the second. So in general, yes, it's good to keep some of these ideas in mind -- but I don't think I'd consider them "rarely modeled". The saw-tooth arrangement in the photo was fairly rare in real-life and takes quite a bit of room compared to a longer track with many "spots". They seem to have been most often used for produce and other perishable commodities, where the inefficiencies of switching one or two cars per move was balanced by the need to keep the cars moving that are being unloaded in an unpredictable order. Typically, real-life railroaders seem to prefer to pull or spot a longer string of cars with each move and do so less often.
DSchmittRarely modeled prototype industrial track arangements I noticed in article on LA Jct Railway by Charlie Slater in The Warbonnet , Third Quarter 2003
The first one on the left isn't really practical if only a single car is spotted where you placed the oval (and I don't think only a single car was placed there on the LAJ, from looking at the same article you cite).
The second and fourth are reasonably common on model railroad designs. The third was pretty rare in real life except for very large installations because it adds two sets of points and two frogs and doesn't add much in switching flexibility versus the second.
So in general, yes, it's good to keep some of these ideas in mind -- but I don't think I'd consider them "rarely modeled".
The saw-tooth arrangement in the photo was fairly rare in real-life and takes quite a bit of room compared to a longer track with many "spots". They seem to have been most often used for produce and other perishable commodities, where the inefficiencies of switching one or two cars per move was balanced by the need to keep the cars moving that are being unloaded in an unpredictable order. Typically, real-life railroaders seem to prefer to pull or spot a longer string of cars with each move and do so less often.
I have looked a lot of track plans in recent months- on-line, in track plan books (at least 30 in my collection), complete Model Railroader collectiion, 45 years of Railroad Model Craftsman, Complete Model Railroad Planning and Great Model Railroads, and general books on model railroading dating back to the 1950's.
I stick by my contention that these arrangements are rarely modeled.
I traced the arrandements from the maps in the article. The car spots are as shown on the maps.
1- the oval car spot is for more than one car. It may indicate that excat spoting is not required. It is inside a building. The symbol also appears on tracks outside of buildings.
2- I have seen this one in books by Frank Ellison, but rarely used. One thing I didn't indicate is the number of businesses served. On this particular one each spot is a different business.
3- I have seen numerous switchbacks modeled, but have never seen this particular arrangement. this one serves three business. I agree probably rare on the prototype for the reason you stated, but there are several of them on the LAJ.
I thoughtseveral of these arrangements might be useful to a moder who wants to fit in more customers for his railroad in a prototypical maner.