Thanks for the feedback guys. I did a test strip last night and things turned out splendidly. I used a farily-very fine paver's sand and on the adjacent track medium. Both went on flawlessly and dried in the same amount of time as the W.S. shell ballast, but with almost no additional going back over white glue spotting. I presume the real rock/sand soaks things up more readily...
Anyway, I can now go down to the work session on Sat. morning with confidence that it'll work out fine.
After trying a little wet water vs. alcohol, I'm convinced alcohol works much better for me with all materials.
Off to please the Grand Poobah....
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
Since this will be a legacy for you, of sorts, and for as long as it gets use, I would try a couple of techniques on a mockup and see what works best with the sand you are going to use.
Crandell
I've already explained my method(s) to him via email. He offered no additional requests or info. so I'm under the impression he'll just turn me loose and see how it goes-as a test.
He's had so much work done by other operators (who've come and gone) over the years that I'm not sure he's sure what was done in the past. Kind of ilke a club where 5 different guys did the wiring over the years.
I'll certainly have a confab with him when I get there. He's kind of the silent "Clint Eastwood" kind of personality. He'll turn you lose without a lot of discussion. A grunt or Yeah is about it for any discussion or instruction. One, I suspect stands or falls on his own merits.
I'll do my test strip tonight at home and should be good to go after I get a feel for sand/fine decomposed granite.. He (as far as I can tell) hasn't used an alcohol based (no wet water) method before so I think he's trying it as an experiment to see how my "method" works for him..
I'll let you know how it goes.
Why not ask the layout owner what he's been using in the past and do the same? Since it's his layout, he may prefer you to use his techniques.
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Bob, I've got some that I sifted into 3 grades last year. I didn't end up using it as it was extremely magnetic. But I think the finest grade I ended up with will give me a good test for Sat. Been wondering what to do with 50 lbs. of that stuff!
Paver sand, decomposed granite will need to be sifted as the mixture contains a good amount of larger pieces ( far too large for HO). You should also note that many of the "real" rock materials will remain much darker than the dried initial product. Do a practice area to see if the product will suit your technique and desired final color.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
I guess I should have mentioned my technique with Woodland Scenics (walnut shell) Ballast to see if you all think the same would apply to fine sand. I don't yet know how fine exactly.
I pre-wet with straight 70% alcohol and then drip 30% alc. 70% water or more usually 60%-40%.
I follow up with a pipette filled with the alcohol/glue mix dibbling along the outside of the rails between the ties and then passes down the inside of the rails and finally a centerline dribble.
I monitor it over the next few hrs. adding drops of straight alcohol to any white spots from glue not setting in properly and let it all dry for about 3 days.
Crandell, thanks for responding. I usually do some tamping with the flat side of a foam brush but hadn't thought about a better roller arrangement. I'll experiment with a practice strip at home. I have some Home Depot paver's sand (decomposed granite) and see how it behaves.
Bob and Rob. Thanks also. Your methods sound pretty much like what I've done as described above .
I guess I'll give my paving sand a try out as a stand in. It was the pilling up and cratering I was most concerned with. With Woodland Scenics, straight alcohol has eliminated those problems.
Thanks guys.
Depending on what it is, really fine sand can do undesired things when you begin to dribble on the glue mixture. It can create rivulets and runs that, when dried, look anything but like what you would expect to see in a flat yard. Some of it can rise up on the blobs of wet glue mix and get transported around to form coloured rings once it is dry.
I use fine beach sand, but not the really fine stuff that might go through a 100 mesh or 80 mesh count to the inch.
I would roll it flat using a smooth dry surface, say a small baby food bottle. Tamp places that are hard to get at that way with a thumb, or use a small piece of wood with a flat surface about a half-inch square. Then spray, or mist, with an alcohol mixture, and then spray with glue. This is how I did my yard on my last layout using garden soil that did have fines in it. The idea is to get some crustiness or adhesion into the layer, over which you can then spray more liberally or pour more glue later once the first application sets. If you use a pipette, dropper of some kind, or otherwise paint on a light glue mix without the pre-wetting, or without letting a first application bond it all somewhat, you run the risk of fines blobbing, globbing, running, and doing just about all the things you were hoping to avoid.
For spray mixes of glue, I use about 7/1 in favour of the water. Even with that dilution, once a reasonable soaking is dry, the layer of soil/sand will be crusty and hard enough to break up that you needn't worry about using any other method of delivery after that for more of the glue.
I first wet the sand with water to which a small amount of isopropyl alcohol has been added to break its surface tension. You don't need much.
I mix glue in the standard 50:50 glue:water ratio that I use for everything else, and apply it separately.
Rob Spangler
We will use "play sand" for a base in many of the club's yards. The method of gluing sand is the same as ballast. I would suggest that you experiment w/ various ratios of water/ alcohol to pre-wet and then glue w/ 50/50. I like to use alcohol/ water 50/50 to dilute the glue or matte medium. Sometimes too much alcohol, although works great, can start to be way too strong for the sinuses. even w/ good ventilation.
The playsand works quite well when done as a base. filling in between tracks etc, saves quite a bit of the rather $$$ ballast or cinders.
One club member did an entire yard with the sand as the final fin ish. He stained the sand w/ various thinned paints (blacks, browns grey). It came out exceptional.
I've volunteered to ballast a yard on a layout I often operate on but haven't contributed to a work session yet.
The layout's owner is using fine sand. I've used Woodland Scenics fine ballast on my own layout with alcohol (no water) and white glue.
I could use experienced folk's (with sand, that is) to recommend glue to alcohol ratios. I'm thinking a 30% glue to alcohol mix would be advisable over a thicker mix-60%/40% etc.?
I'll be heading over there to work on Sat. So any tips using fine sand would be greatly appreciated.
Crandell, I remember your using sand so hoped you might see this and have time to reply while building your new layout.
Thanks!