mobilman44 And, for the sake of your track and fingers, pick up a tack hammer. They cost less than $5, and if you don't misuse it, the thing will last for "ever". And, while you are at Sears Hardware, pick up a nail set - a small one with a little concave dimple on the end.
And, for the sake of your track and fingers, pick up a tack hammer. They cost less than $5, and if you don't misuse it, the thing will last for "ever". And, while you are at Sears Hardware, pick up a nail set - a small one with a little concave dimple on the end.
Aww geez, I forgot to mention the nail set. I use it too to finish off each nail. If you try to drive the nail the entire way with the hammer alone, you run the risk of breaking the tie or, worse, pulling the rails out of gauge.
Rich
Alton Junction
Hi!
Richhotrain is definitely on the right track!
Several years ago, when I was fixin to build an 11x15 HO layout, I asked my dentist for any old drill bits he might have. He gave me several, and I put one of them in a pin vise for the purpose of making those track nail holes in plastic ties. Well, I used that bit on the entire RR in 1993, AND the same bit for my current RR, also 11x15 two level. My point is, that single bit is one sturdy quality item!
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
SUX,
I use a #52 drill bit, which is a .042" diameter bit, in a pin vise to drill pilot holes through the ties. This size drill bit is just the right size to accept nails without bending them no matter how hard the surface and yet small enough that the nails can still grab tightly. You want to drill pilot holes anytime the nail is going to penetrate plywood.
Also, do yourself a favor and get a smaller hammer. Do not use a carpenter's hammer, it is way too big and will damage the ties and the rails.
If I use the method that will allow for the use of both a sound absorbing material and fastening the nails into the OSB below, how easy will it be to hammer the nails into the OSB without bending them?
From personal experience I can tell you that trying to hammer a small nail into a hard surface tends to bend the nail. Also if I use my 16 oz carpenter hammer it could cause damage to the track because of the larger head size. Is there a smaller size hobby hammer that will do the job?
I know the level of sound absorbsion needed is dependant on a few things. The type of room and how much sound absorbsion it already has, type of rough decking material, in my case 1/2" OSB, and the type of locomotive and rolling stock. Mine is an IHC SD-40-2. I am going to experiment with different materials starting with the thinner foam board Rich mentioned with only the OSB underneath. If it is too noisy I'll have to use something different.
If I use the foam insulation board I'll then have to use the latex caulk to hold the track down.
Another thing I'll have to be careful of is the adhesive I use to attach the finished surface material to the OSB. A lot of the adhesives have chemicals that will dissolve the material or act like a sponge and soak it in so well it is drawn into the material and will not stick to the OSB. I am partial to gorilla glue, love the stuff in fact.
SUX V R40 Rider Fred, this first layout I am building, the 4' x 8' is going to only be one consist, the Hy-Vee Savings Express I talk about in previous posts..... This layout will ONLY ever have this one train operating on it because it iwill be "theme" specific and not exactly prototypical, but certainly a feasable concept. As such with the exception what might be considered a rural area the mainline track will go through, the setting will be in a large town or small city.
Fred, this first layout I am building, the 4' x 8' is going to only be one consist, the Hy-Vee Savings Express I talk about in previous posts.....
This layout will ONLY ever have this one train operating on it because it iwill be "theme" specific and not exactly prototypical, but certainly a feasable concept.
As such with the exception what might be considered a rural area the mainline track will go through, the setting will be in a large town or small city.
You should build the layout you want to, without worrying about what I think. You asked about the most suitable material for a finished top surface. I pointed out an alternative was to use more than one material, and gave my reasons for my suggestion. My advice is worth every penny you paid for it. I've ignored advice given to me in this forum and from other model railroaders in the past, and will likely do so again. Sometimes, they were right (I learned afterwards) and sometimes I was right.
I sincerely hope this layout turns out to be everything you want it to be. Post some pictures as it comes along.
Fred W
fwright SUX V R40 Rider: richhotrain: Where is it written that the only interesting layouts are those laid on foam with cutouts for streams and valleys and plaster castings for hills and mountains? When the major railroads terminate in the big cities, the terrain is typically flat and highly industrial. So, if SUX wants to have a finished surface that sits on the unfinished rough surface beneath, what is so wrong with that? It is not only his railroad, it can also be visually interesting. I think that there is plenty of room in the hobby for flat terrain layouts. Boring? Maybe the critics at the train shows are boring. Rich Rich, thank you for the response in my defense. To add to that. This is my first ever model railroad layout. I have never done this before and therefore m a novice/newbie. I may decide after building the 2 currently under constuctions I will never build my permenant layout. I simply do not know yet. Because I do not yet know, I am not going to get crazy with terrain, elevations, etc. If you read my entire post, I specifically pointed out that flat did not represent rural settings very well. My main point was that using a suitable combination of surfaces instead of one single surface allows one to gain the benefits of a given material without so many of its drawbacks. Use Homasote where it most suited - for roadbed. Elsewhere, it adds unnecessary weight - especially if there is plywood under it. Use foam for the scenery base areas, where it is light and easily carved or stacked where non-flat areas are desired. In scenic areas, lack of nail holding for the track is no big deal. Of course, my recommendation for more than one surface material was based on the OP's stated desires for a layout to exhibit (light weight and transportable) and a desire to use nails to fasten track. Yes, a single flat surface is easier to construct. But the freedom to do more than a flat top layout is a powerful incentive to cut (or stack/carve in the case of foam) the single flat surface at some point in the layout's life. I've built several 4x8 and 4x6 Plywood Pacifics, in addition to the 3 rail O layouts. And after a year or so, I always ended up cookie cutting out sections where flat wasn't needed/desired for a much better layout. Even some of the 3 rail O layouts ended up with grades built into them. It helps a lot if the underlying support grid is planned/built for more than just a single sheet of plywood on top. My latest efforts are small shelf layouts and modules, where it is very easy from a construction point of view to go down the road to a single flat surface. But putting a simple support grid underneath gives freedom to introduce grades and non-flat terrain. And allows mixing of surface materials to best suit the purpose of the surface. as always, my thoughts, your choices Fred W
SUX V R40 Rider: richhotrain: Where is it written that the only interesting layouts are those laid on foam with cutouts for streams and valleys and plaster castings for hills and mountains? When the major railroads terminate in the big cities, the terrain is typically flat and highly industrial. So, if SUX wants to have a finished surface that sits on the unfinished rough surface beneath, what is so wrong with that? It is not only his railroad, it can also be visually interesting. I think that there is plenty of room in the hobby for flat terrain layouts. Boring? Maybe the critics at the train shows are boring. Rich Rich, thank you for the response in my defense. To add to that. This is my first ever model railroad layout. I have never done this before and therefore m a novice/newbie. I may decide after building the 2 currently under constuctions I will never build my permenant layout. I simply do not know yet. Because I do not yet know, I am not going to get crazy with terrain, elevations, etc.
richhotrain: Where is it written that the only interesting layouts are those laid on foam with cutouts for streams and valleys and plaster castings for hills and mountains? When the major railroads terminate in the big cities, the terrain is typically flat and highly industrial. So, if SUX wants to have a finished surface that sits on the unfinished rough surface beneath, what is so wrong with that? It is not only his railroad, it can also be visually interesting. I think that there is plenty of room in the hobby for flat terrain layouts. Boring? Maybe the critics at the train shows are boring. Rich
Where is it written that the only interesting layouts are those laid on foam with cutouts for streams and valleys and plaster castings for hills and mountains?
When the major railroads terminate in the big cities, the terrain is typically flat and highly industrial. So, if SUX wants to have a finished surface that sits on the unfinished rough surface beneath, what is so wrong with that? It is not only his railroad, it can also be visually interesting.
I think that there is plenty of room in the hobby for flat terrain layouts. Boring? Maybe the critics at the train shows are boring.
Rich, thank you for the response in my defense.
To add to that. This is my first ever model railroad layout. I have never done this before and therefore m a novice/newbie. I may decide after building the 2 currently under constuctions I will never build my permenant layout. I simply do not know yet. Because I do not yet know, I am not going to get crazy with terrain, elevations, etc.
If you read my entire post, I specifically pointed out that flat did not represent rural settings very well.
My main point was that using a suitable combination of surfaces instead of one single surface allows one to gain the benefits of a given material without so many of its drawbacks. Use Homasote where it most suited - for roadbed. Elsewhere, it adds unnecessary weight - especially if there is plywood under it.
Use foam for the scenery base areas, where it is light and easily carved or stacked where non-flat areas are desired. In scenic areas, lack of nail holding for the track is no big deal. Of course, my recommendation for more than one surface material was based on the OP's stated desires for a layout to exhibit (light weight and transportable) and a desire to use nails to fasten track.
Yes, a single flat surface is easier to construct. But the freedom to do more than a flat top layout is a powerful incentive to cut (or stack/carve in the case of foam) the single flat surface at some point in the layout's life. I've built several 4x8 and 4x6 Plywood Pacifics, in addition to the 3 rail O layouts. And after a year or so, I always ended up cookie cutting out sections where flat wasn't needed/desired for a much better layout. Even some of the 3 rail O layouts ended up with grades built into them. It helps a lot if the underlying support grid is planned/built for more than just a single sheet of plywood on top.
My latest efforts are small shelf layouts and modules, where it is very easy from a construction point of view to go down the road to a single flat surface. But putting a simple support grid underneath gives freedom to introduce grades and non-flat terrain. And allows mixing of surface materials to best suit the purpose of the surface.
as always, my thoughts, your choices
Fred, this first layout I am building, the 4' x 8' is going to only be one consist, the Hy-Vee Savings Express I talk about in previous posts. It is going to have at least one building, a food distribution warehouse that the train either pulls into off of the mainline onto a siding that goes right to the warehouse building on one side to represent unloading of the cars. Or it will have a spur coming off of the mainline going to the warehouse building for unloading. This of course is the trackside.
The other side of the building will be the truckside representing semi trucks hauling the food to the individual Hy-Vee grocery stores.
The setting will be as if this warehouse is an old style building, (perhaps a historical building) repurposed for a new use. It will be set on the outskirts of a town, but still within a town. There will not be a full town, maybe a backdrop of a town skyline or something similar.
SUX V R40 Rider richhotrain: Where is it written that the only interesting layouts are those laid on foam with cutouts for streams and valleys and plaster castings for hills and mountains? When the major railroads terminate in the big cities, the terrain is typically flat and highly industrial. So, if SUX wants to have a finished surface that sits on the unfinished rough surface beneath, what is so wrong with that? It is not only his railroad, it can also be visually interesting. I think that there is plenty of room in the hobby for flat terrain layouts. Boring? Maybe the critics at the train shows are boring. Rich Rich, thank you for the response in my defense. To add to that. This is my first ever model railroad layout. I have never done this before and therefore m a novice/newbie. I may decide after building the 2 currently under constuctions I will never build my permenant layout. I simply do not know yet. Because I do not yet know, I am not going to get crazy with terrain, elevations, etc.
richhotrain fwright: But the only one forcing you to have a flat top layout is you. That is the criticism of flat top layouts at shows - that they are flat and boring to watch after 2 minutes. Again, why use a single "finished surface" when you can achieve so much more by using a suitable mix? Where is it written that the only interesting layouts are those laid on foam with cutouts for streams and valleys and plaster castings for hills and mountains? When the major railroads terminate in the big cities, the terrain is typically flat and highly industrial. So, if SUX wants to have a finished surface that sits on the unfinished rough surface beneath, what is so wrong with that? It is not only his railroad, it can also be visually interesting. I think that there is plenty of room in the hobby for flat terrain layouts. Boring? Maybe the critics at the train shows are boring. Rich
fwright: But the only one forcing you to have a flat top layout is you. That is the criticism of flat top layouts at shows - that they are flat and boring to watch after 2 minutes. Again, why use a single "finished surface" when you can achieve so much more by using a suitable mix?
But the only one forcing you to have a flat top layout is you. That is the criticism of flat top layouts at shows - that they are flat and boring to watch after 2 minutes. Again, why use a single "finished surface" when you can achieve so much more by using a suitable mix?
But the only one forcing you to have a flat top layout is you. That is the criticism of flat top layouts at shows - that they are flat and boring to watch after 2 minutes.
Again, why use a single "finished surface" when you can achieve so much more by using a suitable mix?
fwright But the only one forcing you to have a flat top layout is you. That is the criticism of flat top layouts at shows - that they are flat and boring to watch after 2 minutes. Again, why use a single "finished surface" when you can achieve so much more by using a suitable mix?
One very important point that has been overlooked so far, Once the track is laid and tested, regardless of how it is secured, ballasting the trackwork will finish the job. Even if the material you select for the "base" or roadbed doesn't hold the nails then caulk the track in place.
I'm w/ Fred as far as the cookie cutter approach. I feel the only need for a flat base is for yards, structures or water features. Trackwork on plywood subroadbed or spline has many advantages to scenery topographical changes as compared to that plywood/ foam prarie.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
Whether you are using regular track or track with roadbed already attached I would recommend using inexpensive latex caulk to hold it down. You indicated you didn't want to glue the track down in case you wanted to move it later. If you don't have it attached at all it may move when you don't want it to. With the track with roadbed, at least use a small dab every foot or so. It won't be hard to remove as you can just slide a putty knife underneath to break the seal. Like I said, just a very little caulk will hold it. If you use regular track and cork, the same caulk will work fine. A very thin layer, so thin you can see through it, spread with a putty knife will hold the track in place just fine on cork, foam or wood, Will also hold cork to foam or wood. DO NOT attach turnouts, let the adjacent track hold them in place. Makes it a lot easier to change a turnout or to take it up later without damage, if you decide to change your layout.
Good luck,
Richard
duplicate post due to site interaction with IE7
SUX V R40 Rider First let me explain what I mean by a finished surface material. It is the surface that is finished with a coat of paint or landscape sheets that the track will sit on. The finished surface sits on the unfinished rough surface beneath, such as plywood or OSB. I know about homasote and that it is a good fiber material that holds track nails. But it is heavy and because of the brand name of it it is expensive. It alos only comes in 4' x 8' sheets. I need something that is available in smaller sheets, or easy to cut to fit into my Jeep for transport home. I am not going to build my layouts with out a finished material surface.
First let me explain what I mean by a finished surface material. It is the surface that is finished with a coat of paint or landscape sheets that the track will sit on. The finished surface sits on the unfinished rough surface beneath, such as plywood or OSB.
I know about homasote and that it is a good fiber material that holds track nails. But it is heavy and because of the brand name of it it is expensive. It alos only comes in 4' x 8' sheets. I need something that is available in smaller sheets, or easy to cut to fit into my Jeep for transport home.
I am not going to build my layouts with out a finished material surface.
IIRC, you were talking about this layout being used as a display at shows. Is that still the situation?
Used as a sheet material in combination with sheets of 1/2" or 3/4" plywood, yes, the plywood/Homasote combo is heavy. But the only one forcing you to have a flat top layout is you. That is the criticism of flat top layouts at shows - that they are flat and boring to watch after 2 minutes. And it is very difficult to make believable rural scenery on a flat top layout because the country side just isn't that flat in most of the US.
I have made flat top layouts in the past (3 rail O). I even used green indoor/outdoor carpet as a cover over the plywood. It was perfect for getting a toy train layout look.
In my HO modeling, I use cookie cutter plywood/Homasote under the track. And I use plaster/screen or carved stacked foam or bent foam shell for the terrain base. I find the Homasote to be the ideal roadbed, but not the ideal terrain base (too flat). The terrain materials fill in the spaces between the cookie cutter roadbed, and is easily adjusted to be higher, lower, or at the same level as the track. And sloped or level as desired.
But what other types of finished surface materials would anyone recommend? I have heard the pink or blue insulation board works but mya not hold track nails all that well. Is this true? If the insulation board is used and a small hole drilled where the track nails will be would using glue work to keep the track nails in place? Are there other materials that can be used as a finished surface material that one can hammer track nails into that will hold well?
There are other materials similar to Homasote (Upson board, Celotex, sound insulation board) that have been substituted. None of the substitutes are as dense or as water resistant as real Homasote, but most will work tolerably well.
my thoughts, your choices
CTValleyRR Homasote is a brand name for cellulose fiber wall board. Since I don't use it, I don't know if there are any generic products, but you can check. It might be like Masonite, where everyone calls it that but most places sell the generic "hardboard", not necessarily genuine Masonite. Worth checking.
Homasote is a brand name for cellulose fiber wall board. Since I don't use it, I don't know if there are any generic products, but you can check. It might be like Masonite, where everyone calls it that but most places sell the generic "hardboard", not necessarily genuine Masonite. Worth checking.
Whatever you do, don't use Masonite board as a surface material because it is next to impossible to drive a nail through.
SUX V R40 Rider Rich, It helps quite a bit. Thank you. Some more questions though. How well does the foam board form Hobby Lobby work to hold track nails? Also the reason for the finished surface material is 2-fold. To attach the track and sound absorbsion. I have no problem using 2 different materials. For example the pink or blue insulation board with foam board from Hobby Lobby on top of it. Also the track I am going to use is the pre-bedded/ballst track. It is more expensive than the other so I really don't want to glue the track down in case I have to change it.
Rich,
It helps quite a bit. Thank you. Some more questions though. How well does the foam board form Hobby Lobby work to hold track nails?
Also the reason for the finished surface material is 2-fold. To attach the track and sound absorbsion. I have no problem using 2 different materials. For example the pink or blue insulation board with foam board from Hobby Lobby on top of it.
Also the track I am going to use is the pre-bedded/ballst track. It is more expensive than the other so I really don't want to glue the track down in case I have to change it.
When I nail my track down, the Atlas track nails that I use are longer than 5 mm because they are long enough to go through the plastic tie and the art foam board (or WS Foam Track Bed) and penetrate into the plywood surface. So, it is the plywood that is really holding the nail, not the art foam board (or WS Foam Track Bed). The art foam board is also strong like cork so it doesn't give way like the WS Foam Track Bed, and the art foam is a good sound absorber.
SUX V R40 Rider I know about homasote and that it is a good fiber material that holds track nails. But it is heavy and because of the brand name of it it is expensive. It alos only comes in 4' x 8' sheets. I need something that is available in smaller sheets, or easy to cut to fit into my Jeep for transport home.
Well, sort of. You have to buy it in 4 x 8 sheets, but that doesn't mean you have to take it home that way. My local building supply store is happy to rip large panels into more manageable sizes -- 2x8 or 4x4 -- at no cost. I believe Home Depot and Lowes charge $0.50 per cut for the same service, but that's hardly a bank breaker.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
richhotrain SUX, Like you, I have a plywood surface for my layout, and I use nails to secure the track to the plywood. I use two forms of "finished material surface". One is Woodland Scenics Foam Track Bed which comes in strips and sheets and is 5 mm thick. I use that for the track. The other material that I use is art foam board from Hobby Lobby. It is also 5 mm thick and comes in a large variety of colors. I use that for my passenger station area. My yards are directly on the plywood. Hope that helps. Rich
Like you, I have a plywood surface for my layout, and I use nails to secure the track to the plywood.
I use two forms of "finished material surface".
One is Woodland Scenics Foam Track Bed which comes in strips and sheets and is 5 mm thick.
I use that for the track.
The other material that I use is art foam board from Hobby Lobby. It is also 5 mm thick and comes in a large variety of colors.
I use that for my passenger station area.
My yards are directly on the plywood.
Hope that helps.
It helps quite a bit. Thank you. Some moroe questions though. How well does the foam board form Hobby Lobby work to hold track nails?
SUX V R40 Rider I have heard the pink or blue insulation board works but mya not hold track nails all that well. Is this true? If the insulation board is used and a small hole drilled where the track nails will be would using glue work to keep the track nails in place? Are there other materials that can be used as a finished surface material that one can hammer track nails into that will hold well? Thanks.
I have heard the pink or blue insulation board works but mya not hold track nails all that well. Is this true? If the insulation board is used and a small hole drilled where the track nails will be would using glue work to keep the track nails in place? Are there other materials that can be used as a finished surface material that one can hammer track nails into that will hold well?
Thanks.
When LION ran out of Celotex, him got some sheets of 1" pink foam and continued laying tracks. Nobody told LION that the nails would not stick to it, so him used them anyway. LIONS do not user cork roadbed. Him just laid the tracks on top of the pink. That was five years ago and they are still running fine.(One does NOT hammer nails into foam or fiberglass, you just use your thumb to push the nail in.--In Celotex or Homasote one would use a small nail punch to push the nail in by hand.)
Yes the nails do not hold well, but enough of them appears to be good enough while perfect is a pain in the neck.
Would I do it that way again? No, but if you want a nice surface that does hold nails try roofers fiberglass sheets. The fiberglass will not hold nails, but the paper backing holds them just fine. I have some two inch thick fiberglass insulation in some places, and it needs no sub-roadbed.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I'm a big fan of the pink foam board. No, it' doesn''t take nails, and I don't suspect that trying to glue nails in would work, either. Instead, the proper technique is to glue the roadbed to the foam board, and then glue the track to the roadbed. This is a very solid and effective bond, assuming that the right adhesives are used. Latex caulk is commonly used, but lately I've been using white glue and it seems to do a good job, too.
I use the 2-inch thick foam board over an open-frame benchwork. It is a good stiff base material, so no plywood is needed, although there are those who still use it. It's also very light and easy to work with. Here in New England, it comes in 2x8 foot sheets.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.