Hi Zach,
In case you didn't see it, check out this post in the General Discussion forum from this morning: Bet This Will Make You Cringe. It is an interesting example of a way to make a nice layout from inexpensive materials-- in this case expanded foam-- and a real, live demonstration of its durability. I know in your situation that you can't use shelf brackets or "be drilling into the walls", but as we've discussed, there are certainly other ways to solve that problem. So, since the perfect example just magically appeared, I wanted to point it out to you so you could see how other people have solved the issues you face.
John
CSX17 well guy's been doing some thinking on stuff gonan scrap the ho shelf switcher and all and roll with the 4x8 but am decideign to switch scales going down one size to N scale. my question now is i have found a layout i like the scenic and relaxed form atlas my question is what can i expand the radius to on my layout table being a 4x8 compared to the 3x6 the plan call's for. thanks zach.
well guy's been doing some thinking on stuff gonan scrap the ho shelf switcher and all and roll with the 4x8 but am decideign to switch scales going down one size to N scale. my question now is i have found a layout i like the scenic and relaxed form atlas my question is what can i expand the radius to on my layout table being a 4x8 compared to the 3x6 the plan call's for. thanks zach.
If I understand your writing, yes, you can expand the radius by the same ratio as the length and width - 25% in your case. Multiply the plan radius by 1.25, and you will be in the ball park. Be aware that turnouts and parallel track spacing do not scale by the same ratio. Vertical and horizontal clearances remain the same, although I would move the track at least 25% further from the edge than the published Atlas plan.
Perhaps the easiest path forward is to redraw the plan in the bigger space using Atlas RTS (free download), and adjust the plan to suit.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
thank you john yeah that was kidn of the plan to buy a few switches and some flex the atlas code 100 stuff jsut makes it easier i have a old engien id like ot run and would jsut rather use the bigger rail to avoid any headaches with it i am going to cut my 4x8 table in half to make my shealves question would basically makign a box and bolting it to the wall with a leg at the frotn side at both end's be strong enought ot suport my layout woudl save me soem cash so i could put more into the track and engiens's and stuff thanks' zach.
Paulus Jas hi Zach, wait a minute before running to a store. if i understand your previous postings well you want to have 3 layouts. One for you little sister, where a train can run around and around, one for yourself on which you are able to run modern long trains and at last a switching L-type layout. You do not have much stuff and you are going to invest a lot of money, eight switches, track etc won't come cheap. You are going to buy engines and cars, IMHO you should really start to think. Try to find someone you can talk to and who can help you as well. Go to the LHS only after you are very sure what you want. Anyway you have to learn a lot, and drawing a plan and posting it is definitely not the most difficult part. Only when people on here have a drawing of your room, and do know all your wishes you will receive worthwhile plans. Keep smiling Paul
hi Zach,
wait a minute before running to a store. if i understand your previous postings well you want to have 3 layouts. One for you little sister, where a train can run around and around, one for yourself on which you are able to run modern long trains and at last a switching L-type layout.
You do not have much stuff and you are going to invest a lot of money, eight switches, track etc won't come cheap. You are going to buy engines and cars, IMHO you should really start to think. Try to find someone you can talk to and who can help you as well. Go to the LHS only after you are very sure what you want.
Anyway you have to learn a lot, and drawing a plan and posting it is definitely not the most difficult part.
Only when people on here have a drawing of your room, and do know all your wishes you will receive worthwhile plans.
Keep smiling
Paul
I understand what Paul is trying to tell you but I have a different opinion on it-- I'd say DO go out and get yourself some switches and track, just don't go overboard on it yet. With the flex track you won't need curve pieces since the flex track can curve to whatever shape you need it. Go with cheaper flex track to begin with-- Atlas code 100 is probably your cheapest bet, unless the track you already have is say, code 83, in which case buy Atlas code 83 instead. (Just make sure you don't accidentally buy *brass* track as it's more work to keep clean!)
Lay down some flex track and some switches. Google something like "model railroad switching layout" or "model railroad track plan" and you're bound to come up with some ideas and plans that other people have drawn up. Paul (Paulus Jas) SteinJr, Cuyama (Byron Henderson) and others have all put out many simple switching track plans-- a lot of them you'll find on this site if you search using their names and "track plan".
The *sooner* you get something down and running the sooner you'll start to feel like you've accomplished something-- PLUS you can run the trains while you plan what comes next. THEN sit down and start thinking about what you really want in a layout, etc.-- Just like Paul suggests. If you're going to build a layout on a board, it isn't going to be that hard to tack the track down (although most folks would suggest latex caulk instead) and pull it up again later if (when) you change your mind.
Just know and accept up front that you're going to "eat up" some track and a little money here and there trying things out and seeing what works for you. If you're careful you can reuse nearly all the track you purchase and of course all of the trains and such. I think it's a lot easier to start figuring out what you want and what you don't once you've had a chance to try some stuff firsthand yourself. At this point, I wouldn't even worry about putting down "cork" or other roadbed until you do have some better ideas of what you want.
I strongly suggest getting in there and playing some-- try stuff out-- see what you like, what you don't, and get some experience using the track and other materials-- get some skills going-- and THEN work on making a plan and building something more purposeful. My feeling is that if you spend too much time thinking and planning you risk losing interest and missing out on a lot of fun. So if you *start* with the fun part, then you can add the other stuff as you get your feet wet and want to try more.
My of course-- you're welcome to take anybody's advice you like, or even nobody's!!!
(However, just for the record, what Paul said *is* good advice)
thank's for thatsuggestion but i don't know how to draw up track plan's let alone post them that is why i was asking for someone to draw me up one im thinking of jsut winging it and going and buying a bunch of turnout's maybe 8 of them and a bunch of flex some rail joiner's and some rail joiner's some cork and just seeing what i come up with and a pair of xuron rail nipper's as well would this be a decent way to do it i just wanna run some train's again i need to get a locomotive though first so was jsut gonna try and sue what i have right now i have four of the extrack turnout's and a bunch of straight and curves all the curves are sadly though 18 inche radius was thinking abotu grabbing a pack or two of 22 inch to make my whatever curves to work out for whatever engine i decide on getting and plus that would help me make my flex track curves wouldn't it thnk's zach.
CSX17 i will post more when i get really going on it would like some help on track plan's for this layout any one wanan draw me up a plan if i give out my idea's.
i will post more when i get really going on it would like some help on track plan's for this layout any one wanan draw me up a plan if i give out my idea's.
I would suggest drawing up an initial plan yourself, and posting it, along with an explanation of what you are trying to do.
Show the entire room - walls, doors, windows, what other things the layout will have to coexist with.
Then you are pretty likely to get suggestions and comments from several people.
Smile, Stein
i will post more when i get really going on it would like some help on track plan's for this layout any one wanan draw me up a plan if i give out my idea's. thank's zach.
CSX17 okay thank's for that info on the shelves im thinking of jsut doing a l shaped shelf switching layout 8 feet long by 2 feet wide on one and 6 feet long and 2feet wide on the other one and just do that i like switchign more than roundy round the roundy round was so my little sister who love's watchign them go around the oval could jsut watch em go by ill keep hte easy trakcn ad jsut get a cheap 4 axle loco for when she coems over and ill set that up for her to play with and build the switchgn layout to my likeign but will still need to be able to ruse big six axle locos as switcher's it's waht i like and what i want. can i acheaive this in the space i said in this post thank's zach.
okay thank's for that info on the shelves im thinking of jsut doing a l shaped shelf switching layout 8 feet long by 2 feet wide on one and 6 feet long and 2feet wide on the other one and just do that i like switchign more than roundy round the roundy round was so my little sister who love's watchign them go around the oval could jsut watch em go by ill keep hte easy trakcn ad jsut get a cheap 4 axle loco for when she coems over and ill set that up for her to play with and build the switchgn layout to my likeign but will still need to be able to ruse big six axle locos as switcher's it's waht i like and what i want. can i acheaive this in the space i said in this post thank's zach.
That sounds like a reasonable solution. I hope it works out well for you. When you get further along, why don't you post some more (and some pictures) so we can see how you're coming along?
CSX17 okay sound's good to me where can i get these book shelves or cabinet's taht are this tall at for a cheap price. im likeing the idea of not beign restricted to smal radius turn's and beign able to run what i want to run equipment wise and have a decetn room for switching and scenery thank's for the help and any ideas on where i can said bookshelved and cabinet's thanks zach.
okay sound's good to me where can i get these book shelves or cabinet's taht are this tall at for a cheap price. im likeing the idea of not beign restricted to smal radius turn's and beign able to run what i want to run equipment wise and have a decetn room for switching and scenery thank's for the help and any ideas on where i can said bookshelved and cabinet's thanks zach.
Shelves and cabinets-- shelves especially-- can be had fairly cheaply, especially if you have patience and are willing to wait for a good sale. But even if you need something right away, they aren't all that expensive, and don't forget they're not just going to hold up your layout, they're shelves or cabinets that can hold your other stuff too! :-)
Awhile back Home Depot had some cheap shelves going for about $15 bucks each. 'Course you had to put 'em together yourself, but that wasn't tool difficult. We bought four of them and despite their super-cheap price, we still have them today. The ones we bought would be too tall for a layout, but when we bought 'em, the store had some 4-footers for sale also that would have been about perfect.
I know other stores often have sales on shelves and cabinets-- K-Mart, Target, Lowes-- probably other stores as well. Sometimes you can get the cheap or free from people who are moving, redecorating, yard sales, or even on the side of the road on occasion. I have a beautiful cabinet I picked up one day that someone was tossing out. Tall with double glass doors and pretty well made. The glass was busted out of one of the doors but that's an easy fix. And don't forget dressers can be used too-- or even, in a pinch, getting some 2x4's or 2x2's and making some-- wait for it-- *legs* !!!
I also have to caution you again about making your layout a foot wider: sections of my layout are 5 wide, and I have access from both sides, but I still need a topside creeper to reach the center. I'm 6'1" tall, and my layout is 48" high.
The fact that this layout will be in your bedroom does not have to be an insurmountable problem: check out the quote from Henry Ford in my signature block. Or Walt Disney, who said, "If you can dream it, you can do it.".... or Robert Goddard, who said, "It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is the hope of today and the reality of tomorrow." NEVER EVER EVER use C, A, and N together if you intend to put an 'T at the end!
People who sell furniture for college dorm rooms have some brilliant ideas for how to cram a lot of stuff into a small space by using what would otherwise be dead space in the vertical dimension. Give it some thought, and see how creative you can be.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
You will very quickly grow to hate setting up and taking down. You would be much better off to build a micro layout that could sit on a shelf when not in use.
CSX17 thank's yall for the advice on tryign ot go from a a table layout to a aroudn hte room layout but it's in my bedroom and i don't have the space for it kind of a small room and my walls cant' be drilledn into also and i dont' want to spend the money on extra wood for bench work when i can add a foot to what i have and have a width taht is suitable and i have acess to three side's two of hte logn side's and one of the short oene's. An my reason for the athearn genissis loco is i want one of the new sd70ace's ane then when they come out i want a sd70m-2 and athearn is the only companies i knw of makignthese models from my knowlege very slim though so if there are another company making these locos point me to it thank's zach.
thank's yall for the advice on tryign ot go from a a table layout to a aroudn hte room layout but it's in my bedroom and i don't have the space for it kind of a small room and my walls cant' be drilledn into also and i dont' want to spend the money on extra wood for bench work when i can add a foot to what i have and have a width taht is suitable and i have acess to three side's two of hte logn side's and one of the short oene's. An my reason for the athearn genissis loco is i want one of the new sd70ace's ane then when they come out i want a sd70m-2 and athearn is the only companies i knw of makignthese models from my knowlege very slim though so if there are another company making these locos point me to it thank's zach.
You don't *have* to drill in the walls-- that's just one idea. If that's not a possibility, just don't use shelf brackets. Another perfectly doable way to achieve the layout I described, would be to get some book shelves or cabinets-- say somewhere between 48-60 inches high (4 or 5 feet), whatever height is comfortable for you, and then simply place the shelf layout on top of them. If you want to secure it to the shelves, that's doable, or not-- as you choose. The previous respondent suggested "modules", that would indeed be a great way to do it-- not only could you have a nice shelf / modular layout *now*, but you would also likely be able to reuse them again in another layout in the future.
The major advantages of this concept is that it gives you the maximum amount of space for your layout *without* taking up all your room-- the room underneath (and possibly overhead) of the layout is still available for other uses-- storage perhaps, as I've suggested. Something else if you'd rather. It gives you a "longer run", more "switching opportunities", and a better "reach-in" distance. It also minimizes (pretty much eliminates, in fact) the problems you would otherwise face with the wheelbase (overall length, and truck type) on a layout with sharper turns (curve radius). And you would *still* have the majority of that *other* 4x8 space that you were originally talking about available for something else.
Do you have a dresser in your bedroom? Is it somewhere in the 4-5 foot tall range? If so, that could be one of your layout supports. How about a bookshelf? Or a cabinet? Are they in the 4-5 foot tall range? If so, more supports *already* in your room. Even if they are not all the same height, it's simple enough to construct some "cribbing" of some sort that would match up the distance. Perhaps adding a smaller shelf or cabinet, or heck-- even using some thick books-- I've done that before. Works fine as long as you don't accidentally knock it over (ask me how I know that... )
Heck, when I was in school, one of my layouts was a pair of 1x12 pine boards, one 8 feet long, the other 6 feet long, put together in an 'L' shape and the track simply nailed to the top of it. I put it on top of my dresser and some bookshelves that were in the room and jacked up the difference by shoving some books under it. It wasn't pretty, but it was a layout, and I had some fun with it.
I guess the thing that myself and the others are trying to say is that there's nearly always a way to build a layout somehow. And often, if you allow yourself to think outside the box-- or in this case, the 4x8 sheet of plywood, there are creative ways to do it so that you can maximize your layout potential and minimize its impact on the rest of your space.
My uncle, when I was a little kid-- he's the one who got me started in Model Railroading-- he had his layout in his room. And it was a pretty small room. It was pretty high up off the ground-- I was about 4 or 5, so it seemed really tall to me at the time. And it was constructed in a more-or-less modular fashion out of 1x3 lumber (maybe 1x4) and topped with 1/4 inch plywood. It had long spindly legs that held it up over top of everything else in his room. It ran all the way around the walls. And the thing that always amused me (remember I was 4 :-) is that he even had his *bed* underneath it. To this day I have fond memories of being in his room watching the trains go on his layout.
If you want trains, there's always a way!
you could do 1 foot wide by 3 foot long moduals or a swiching layout
robert aldrich
n scale i know and the alco line plus great northern
Adding that extra foot of width may make the difference between "stretching" and "unreachable". My advise would be never go wider than 4', and then only if you can access it from both sides.
You may have noticed, but a lot of us are trying to get you to think loop around the room, not around one table top. Any time you can see both the front and rear of your train on opposite sides of the layout tends to diminish the suspension of disbelief.
Also, maybe I missed something, but why are you stuck on buying an Athearn? Was there a particular model you liked? Not that I'm trying to bash Athearn, but in my opinion (and it's ONLY my opinion), there are better options in the same price range.
CSX17 well what i was thinkigng was addign another foot to the 4x8 width wise to make it 5x8 so i can fit a 24inche radius curve on it and somehow incoreate hte switchign layout into ti as a modual somehow on a seprate pice so i would have a switch yard. i want to be able to jsutlet the train rool sicne my little sister likes watching the trains go aroudn and around. ille keep the hit and miss into account while buyign an engine. form atheran might see if i can find a train shop aroudn here so i coudl test drive it and know it will work pretty good would that be a good diea thank's zach.
well what i was thinkigng was addign another foot to the 4x8 width wise to make it 5x8 so i can fit a 24inche radius curve on it and somehow incoreate hte switchign layout into ti as a modual somehow on a seprate pice so i would have a switch yard. i want to be able to jsutlet the train rool sicne my little sister likes watching the trains go aroudn and around. ille keep the hit and miss into account while buyign an engine. form atheran might see if i can find a train shop aroudn here so i coudl test drive it and know it will work pretty good would that be a good diea thank's zach.
Zach,
I don't know what your room dimensions are, or if this is a possibility for you or not-- but let me throw it out there anyway...
When many people think of building a first (or second) layout, they think of getting a sheet of plywood (4x8) to do it. It sounds like you have a 5x9 space, but otherwise, it's essentially the same idea. If you have (or can make) the space, perhaps you would like to consider an alternative idea... creating a "shelf" layout instead.
One of the great advantages of a shelf layout is that you can pack a lot of layout into a relatively small space *and* use the space, underneath-- and perhaps overhead-- for other stuff. So for someone who is "Space-challenged", it can be a good alternative to the usual 4x8 "roundy-round".
Shelf layouts do not have to be deep-- in fact, it's generally better if they are not. You can make a great layout that's anywhere from 12 inches to say 30 inches deep. It's not a good idea to go much deeper than that due to difficulties reaching things at the back of the layout-- which, of course, is where all the problems *will* occur...
The other thing about shelf layouts is that you can make them out of readily-obtainable, lightweight materials that are (in many people's opinion) easier to work with than wood. For example, you can go to your nearby home supply store and purchase double-track shelf brackets and supports for a few bucks each. I personally recommend getting the 6-footers and cutting them up into 3 sections, it's cheaper that way.
Then you can buy some sheets of that 2-inch pink foam, which comes in 2-ft by 4-ft sections, and lay that on top of the shelf brackets. Some folks suggest putting a thin layer of wood underneath for support-- that's not a bad idea either, but the 2 inch foam is pretty strong as long as you support it underneath and don't try to sit or stand on it... DON'T do it with anything less than the 2 inch stuff though, or you will have problems.
If you want wood support underneath, there's a couple of easy ways. If you don't mind sawing up plywood, that's the simplest method. You don't need much, 1/2 or 3/4 inch plywood cut into strips will work fine. Just lay them across your shelf brackets and interleave them, and then put your foam on top of that.
Alternately, you could use dimensional lumber, such as the 1x3 or 1x4 (or even 1x2) white pine, and lay them across the brackets. I did that for years and it worked fine. You'll probably want to secure it to the brackets though if you want it to be permanent or semi-permanent. The brackets have screw holes in them which you can use to secure the wood. You can use liquid nails (the kind "for projects") or latex caulk to secure the foam to the wood.
Whether or not you have space to go all the way around the room, I have no idea-- only you know that. If you do and want to connect the ends, that's up to you. But you can make a very nice switching layout based on the shelf concept. A lot of people make layouts like that for their "real", "permanent" layouts. If you're a Model Railroad magazine subscriber, you can check out their Track Plan Database (see the top of this page for the link) where you can review lots of other people's layout plans to get ideas for your own.
And don't forget that you can build a shelf layout at a height that gives you plenty of room underneath for other things-- many people strongly suggest you build a layout at eye level anyway, which is typically in the 50-58 inch range, depending on you and your height. You can build shelves or cabinets underneath the layout for storage, or perhaps a workbench-- keep in mind though that you probably don't want it to come out more than the layout into the room, or you'll probably have troubles operating and maintaining your railroad due to the stuff in the way.
Another benefit of the shelf layout is that they typically don't have a lot of severe curves, which means that you aren't as concerned about the wheelbase of the cars and locos either. Except at corners, which tend to be 90 degree angles, the rest of the layout is typically pretty straight, since its built on a shelf. Doesn't have to be *totally* straight of course, but the curves, when there are any, typically have a larger radius (assuming you're using FLEX track) -- big enough that it doesn't matter what cars or locos you run. Even the corner curves don't have to be that bad. You can lay tolerable curves that most equipment will handle fine, if you're using flex track.
Athearns aren't "bad", they're hit or miss. Some of them run very nicely, some have issues.
I would consider adding "wings" to your table so that you make an L or C shape. This will allow you to expand your layout down the sides. Eventually, you can make a loop around the outside of the room, if that suits.
okay thank's i think i will how bad are the athearn engiens i really want a sd60m with dcc and sound on it and athear genissi has them in norfolk and southern my railroad of choice. and well it's a 4x8 table that im currently useign a 8 foot long by 1.5 foot section of for my switchign layout i kidn of want to dfigureo ut how to make it better thanks' zach.
DCC upgrades aren't all that hard. You can often find someone who will do it for a small fee.
I want to correct a misconception that you seem to have. A switching layout IS a real layout -- in fact, it's more prototypical than your standard loop of track. A small one is rather limiting though, so I think you mean that you want to expand it in the future. If I were you, I would design a series of modules, so that you can gradually expand your track plan as time and budget allow. Use the switching layout as a core and build off of it.
Me, personally, although I do enjoy planning and building scenery, I also love operating trains. I'd go ahead and invest in a few locos. One advantage of DCC is you can have several on your layout at the same time, and you don't have to worry about all of them moving when you advance the throttle.
Athearn locos can be hit or miss. Atlas, Proto 1K, and Bachmann Spectrum (NOT the basic line) are pretty good compromises between cost, detail, and operating characteristics.
okay well let me try and clear thing's up for ya will try my best at that.
i wanted some advice on some track at first okay got osme answer's for that. Im planning on useign the flex track. I have a dcc system the digitrax zepher and a dcc locomotive and have set up a small switching layout to keep my busy for a while and want a nice dcc and sound equipped locmotive but my question is what would i be better off doing gong ahead and getting hte locomotive first and then fiddle with it on the switching layout for a while and then start on the actual real layout or start on the real layout and then acuire a new loco. that is what i wanted know thank's zach.
Even better.
I've sort of lost track of what you want to do. If you're going to stay with DC for a while and your NS GP38 runs OK (or maybe it needs a bit leaning or tuning) you can get some fun running your switching layout while you plan for greater things.
If you really want sound (Can you get that with DC or DC/DCC engines?) a new engine is might make running more fun..
If you can afford a starter DCC set that would add a lot of interest to even the simplest layout (Sound, Momentum, auto-reverse, all kinds of stuff.)
Or while running and planning you could build a few small structures for interest and possible use on a future layout.
Just don't try to go too fast. Planning can be fun and, I think, is really necessary for a satisfying layout. Even a 4X8.
Jim Murray The San Juan Southern RR
Thank's bud yeah im trying. is the athearn gennis unit's any good cause they have the engiens i really want the sd60's and sd70m-2's are coming out pretty soon. and i want a sound equipped engine. since i put toghter the bachman track pack as a switching layout for now.
What would be better buying a engine and useing what i have a switchign layout for now or forget the engien sicne i have a old crappy gp38 in ns though it's only dc and i have no clue how olde it is just been running it on the dc setting on my zepher. thank's zach.
CSX17 okay cool thank's dude for those link's ill start surfing thsoe site's and looking on here some. where would i be able to find osme track plans ive decided to make thsi permenant now ill get a small computer desk as a work bench. for a 5x8 yeah i am going to add onto the existing table so i can get a tad wider truns' since i want to run sd60's and sd70m-2's and big stuff like that and maybe it be a twice aroudn kidn of track plan thanks' zach.
okay cool thank's dude for those link's ill start surfing thsoe site's and looking on here some. where would i be able to find osme track plans ive decided to make thsi permenant now ill get a small computer desk as a work bench. for a 5x8 yeah i am going to add onto the existing table so i can get a tad wider truns' since i want to run sd60's and sd70m-2's and big stuff like that and maybe it be a twice aroudn kidn of track plan thanks' zach.
Much better. Now start using the Enter key for line feed (start a new line every now and then for clarity.)
Have fun,
Walthers is a good source if the items are on sale.
Otherwise, I use MB Klein and they are absolutely wonderful to deal with/
http://www.modeltrainstuff.com
Rich
Alton Junction