Layout Design help wanted

[Anonymous]

A mind-boggling question I am certainly not the first to ask.

I have a spare room roughly 10' x 13', in which I plan a bi-level HO shelf layout. It would depict mainline with 29"-radius curves.

Problem is, I want continuous running between both levels. But:
a) I have no space for an helix in the layout room nor in an adjacent room,
b) same for an helix that would be suspended to the ceiling when not in use, and lowered down at time of running trains: It would eat nearly all the remaining room space and I could not move anymore,
c) an "outside helix" that would screw along the inner of the room walls to join both levels seems to me quite complicated, if not to build, at least to integrate in the landscape (same train visibly passing over and over the same scenery),
d) a "train lift", even though too intricate to build, allows passing from one level to the other, but not continuous running,
e) even though I may already think of it despite my small space, I'm afraid my time, money and ability would not let me consider a "mushroom" design.

Any idea, any Layout Design tycoon out there? Thxs!

[IRONROOSTER]

There are only a limited number of ways to do this.
1. A helix in a blob some where which you are trying to avoid.

2. Along the walls you have track rising aroung the room from the lower level to the top. Can use backdrops to hide it - the outside helix you described.

3. The whole layout is build on a continuous grade and spirals around the room. If it is point to point then no blob is neccessary.

Otherwise you use non continuous connections - the train lift you described or train trays that you lift from one level to the other.

One other option is to fake it. You have hidden track on both levels and identical trains on both levels. You stage one train in the hidden track and run the other train. When it enters the hidden track on its level the twin leaves on the other level. You can go back and forth as often as you want - just can't drop off or pick up cars.
Enjoy
Paul

[Big_Boy_4005]

How about something like this? I believe it is known as a nolix. 3 trips along this path should give you an easy grade without eating up too much of your space. Just build it along 2 walls away from the door. Part of it could be exposed and incorporated into the layout, or just hidden behind the backdrop.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

...3. The whole layout is build on a continuous grade and spirals around the room. If it is point to point then no blob is neccessary...

With 10' x 13' , any "blob" will eat up alot of room. You're looking at an area of 5'x5' for a 26" radius. You could design it so that there is only one in a corner (and have one helix inside of another), but two would be too much, IMHO. If you were to do something like BigBoy proposed, the two blobs are going to take up as much room as a helix. So I think Paul's #3 is a good start.

Now, you could do Paul's #3 and get continous at the same time. You could use one or two of the walls (depending on grade, elevation difference between levels, etc.), where two grades cross each other. One on the way up to the upper deck, and one on the way down. I'll sketch something out here in a little bit to clarify what I'm talking about.

---jps

[cwclark]

I had a layout that was in a room exactly 10 x 13...it wasn't easy, but i went with a double figure 8 in the middle of the room...I soon moved it to one wall to try and put in a yard on the opposite wall and ended up with a duck-under and access ports in between the figure 8 sections...I utilized every bit of space the room had but it was not easy at all to get to a lot of the layout areas...I feel for you and your space (or lack of it)...At first, I was going to design a helix, but every design i tried...well... there was just not enough room for it...I also ended up with 18" and 15" radius track which kept me from running anything with more than 4 axles or over 50' in scale length....My suggestion would to be: do a small layout, save your money, and buy a bigger place someday...I don't like being a pessimist, but been there, done that, and it isn't easy to cram a nice railroad in that small of space...Chuck[:D]

[Anonymous]

Okay, the first sketch illustrates what I was talking about by using a single "blob".



You basically have a 24" helix inside of an 27" helix. These are VERY narrow radii for a helix, especially depending on how long and/or modern your modelled equipment is. But you can see how much room it will take up, and how much more a second blob (or even a reverse loop) will take up. Since the drawing isn't too clear, the outside helix goes from 4" to 30" in elevation. The inside helix goes from 0" to 34" in elevation. The entrance to the bottom of the inside helix goes under the outside helix, and the entrance to the top of the inside helix goes over the outside helix.

The next sketch shows what I mean by taking Paul's idea, and making it a continuous run.



Here, the upper and lower levels at the bottom of the drawing are "blended" into one, and the two tracks crossover. This could be done with a diamond crossing and interchange, or one bridge over another, or inside of a tunnel (but you don't want to do a diamond crossing in a tunnel). This method will allow for two level operation without a blob, but the grades will be steep, and the height difference between the two levels won't be as large as with a helix. There are ways to move things around and work with them to make up for some of that, like running a track behind the layout along the wall.

When you consider door-ways, duckunders, and lift-outs, things will also need to be shifted.

You can go directly to http://home.att.net/~bluecreekrr/1013-a.jpg and http://home.att.net/~bluecreekrr/1013-b.jpg to see these full size, if the forum software shrinks them too much.

---jps

[Big_Boy_4005]

I should have mentioned a couple of things about my concept. First, it is not to scale, but it is a fair approximation. Second, since most of it will be hidden, I made it 18" radius. The thinking was why bother with broad curves where they won't be seen. This takes better advantage of the space, and still allows you to have trains and scenery in front. The problem with a standard helix is that in order to gain enough height in each 360 degree turn, the radius must be large enough to keep the grade from becoming excessive.

The maximum practical grade that I would consider is 2%. So if you need to gain 4" height per turn, the run of track must be at least 200 ". 200 divided by Pi is almost 32" RADIUS. That single blob is almost 6 feet in diameter, and the interior is 100% waste!!! It will take 6 laps to make 24" height between levels.

My method may use 2 corners, but one lap is almost 48 feet long. 3 laps brings the grade down to 1.5%!!! Very reasonable. By the way, when you run the numbers, you will find that two 18" radius circles take up 2035.75 square inches total. One 32" radius circle takes up 3216.99 square inches.

Just because you can draw it on paper doesn't mean it will work in the real world. As far as I know a Rivarossi 86' passenger car with 6 wheel trucks will go around a 18" radius curve. It may look like hell, but it can be done.[swg]

[Anonymous]

I agree that a simple return loop can functionally be smaller than a helix loop. And I do agree that a helix loop takes up ALOT of room, and many loops are required to gain height between levels.

And yes, my drawings were also basic ideas to show what I was talking about, and needs alot of work before they become feasible designs. It is a pretty hard nut to crack in that size of space, and will require some compromizes.

---jps

[Anonymous]

Chuck, Elliott, jps and Paul (in alpha order), thank you for the ideas. Everything you say is right and makes good sense. I don't know yet how, but the solution is sure in what you say, obviously in a combination of your different comments and suggestions.

Two things:

a) about the 18" radius, you are right, a 6-axle Rivarossi can take it. Yes, it will be an awful sight, but that's a "utility" track, probably hidden, so yes, why bother. Except that my Westside SP 2-10-2 Deck and 4-10-2 Southern-pacific, may not like the radius at all,

b) sorry, I was not clear enough. When I said "continuous running between levels", I did not meant to have a permanent ascending track, and a permanent descending one. I just meant that a train can go up or down, using the same track in the appropriate direction. You are right that with a double helix, the inner radius would be -very- small, because the center-tracks distance would have to be large.

Thank you very much all for your time, I let you know as soon as "the" suitable solution comes to fruition. Just one word to mention that moving elsewhere to get THE suitable train room with utility day-to-day-life rooms around would need the approval from my Ministry of the Interior. Better run Rivarossi cars on a 18" radius!!!

[traingeek087]

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

2. Along the walls you have track rising aroung the room from the lower level to the top. Can use backdrops to hide it - the outside helix you described.

How are you suppose to clean the tracks than if a backdrop is in the way?

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by traingeek087

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

2. Along the walls you have track rising aroung the room from the lower level to the top. Can use backdrops to hide it - the outside helix you described.

How are you suppose to clean the tracks than if a backdrop is in the way?

You can use a track cleaning car and/or make the backdrop removable.
Enjoy
Paul

[traingeek087]

Will a track cleaning car keep it clean that clean?

[IRONROOSTER]

Probably will IF you run it regularly. John Allen made his own using hardboard on the bottom of a couple of freight cars to scrape the rails. He ran these in regular operation. I think MR may have run an article on it many years ago. Some of the newer RTR cars will probably work also. Using nickel silver track and metal wheels will help lessen the dirt build up. I haven't used one so I can't speak to any in particular. You could post this as separate topic and get opinions.
Enjoy
Paul

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by traingeek087

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

2. Along the walls you have track rising aroung the room from the lower level to the top. Can use backdrops to hide it - the outside helix you described.

How are you suppose to clean the tracks than if a backdrop is in the way?

In the scenario I'm proposing, the loop sections could be accessed from the inside. A little crawling then pop up in the hole behind the backdrop. The straight parts would have to have panels in the backdrop, like Paul said.

Widening the curves from 18" to 22" for the hidden track may be the compromise you need. The nice thing is that the straight parts of the nolix can be done in about 4" depth away from the wall. It's kind of like a 150' marble run.[swg]

[CBQ_Guy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

Probably will IF you run it regularly. John Allen made his own using hardboard on the bottom of a couple of freight cars to scrape the rails. He ran these in regular operation. I think MR may have run an article on it many years ago. Some of the newer RTR cars will probably work also. Using nickel silver track and metal wheels will help lessen the dirt build up. I haven't used one so I can't speak to any in particular. You could post this as separate topic and get opinions.
Enjoy
Paul

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http://walthers.com/exec/productinfo/262-49000

[traingeek087]

Need CBQ....

[nslakediv]

have you ever considered a point to point switch ing layout, I built mine point to point and had a reverse loop at each end for continuous running, after all was said and done reverse loops are gone which made way for 8 more industrial tracks and greater ease of operation. be careful with the continous grade around the walls, you will have to level out for spur tracks and yards, there for possibly changing you total rise. remember KISS. sometimes grander is not greater.

[CBQ_Guy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by traingeek087

Need CBQ....

Hullooo?