Ballast track or scenic the hills first?

[woodman]

I have 4" risers running around a section of my layout. I have completed the hills coming off the risers using plaster cloth etc.. I just started to scenic the hills with various foam and turf products and then I was going to ballast the track and roadbed. Should I ballast the track first or wait until I am done scening the hills. I figured the hills were there first and the railroad came later. Does it really make any difference?

[tbdanny]

I'd leave the ballast until the end - make sure you're happy with the rest of the scenery and track arrangement first.

[cowman]

You will find folks that do it first and others do it last.  In nature the sceneery was there and only the area disturbed by the building of the rr came later.  Ballast is put down and it spills onto the surrounding scenery.  If you do it first, then you don' have to disturb other scenery to get to the track.  There are probably many other takes on why to do one or the other.

I will say that the one thing you want to do is to be sure your trackwork is very good before ballasting.  Run your trains and test, test, test your track before ballasting.  It's much easier to correct problems before the ballast is glued down.  Another suggestion I have seen is do not do long stretches at a time.  This is so you can test your track after ballasting to insure you did not mess up the electrical feeds.  By doing shorter sections it is much easier to test and find the problem spot.

I plan to do it last, except for the places where nature is encroching on the track.  If you  have a place that will be hard to reach, do it earlier, as soon as  you know your trackwork is good.  I see no reason not to do some of both as you go along, completing a section of your layout at a time.

I don't think there is truely a right or wrong way to do it.  What ever suits your personal likes, will be the  one you like best.

Good luck,

Richard

[doctorwayne]

If the area alongside the tracks is relatively "complete", I add the ballast and lineside scenery at the same time.  Of course, with open grid benchwork, the landforms need to be in place before ballasting can take place.

 

Wayne

[Johnnny_reb]

Woodman it makes no difference how you do it. The only problem would be if you install trees or other scenic elements that will interfere with your reach as you install the ballast. Say a large grove of trees or something that would be hard to reach over. In other words if you plan to install something that would make to you reach over it to install ballast later, risking damage to said item. Then I would install the ballast first and the large items afterwards so as to not have to reach over them while working beyond them.

I like to work from the back edge of the layout to the front edge. When ever you work over other scenic elements you run the risk of damaging them.

Now with that said, I have in the past planned to hide a scene behind some trees or other items while building in front of a window when said item could be seen better from outside the room looking in the window from the outside at the layout in the room.

[richhotrain]

woodman

I have 4" risers running around a section of my layout. I have completed the hills coming off the risers using plaster cloth etc.. I just started to scenic the hills with various foam and turf products and then I was going to ballast the track and roadbed. Should I ballast the track first or wait until I am done scening the hills. I figured the hills were there first and the railroad came later. Does it really make any difference?

That's the rule that I follow.  The hills were there first and the railroad came later, so landscaping first and ballast later.  Besides, if you wait to do the ballast, you have more time to perfect your track work.

Rich

[UncBob]

Long as you are sure you are not going to change the track

--do whatever is easier first

[rrinker]

 I'm doing the ballast first, although I did paint all exposed surfaces with brown paint before doing the ballast. That way, when I add ground cover, the fringes of the ballast will have 'weeds'

                  --Randy

 

[fwright]

As others have already said, it's pretty much your choice.

Which do you care about more - 1) getting the final scene the way you want it?  2) having interim steps look like a railway under construction, or perhaps just less like a layout under construction?

If your answer is #1, then the scenery sequence should be whatever is easiest and most convenient for you.

If #2 is more important, then roughing in the basic terrain would likely be your 1st step.  Ballasting becomes more of a finer detail and finishing element like ground cover and detailing rock castings and so on.  If you use the #2 approach, scenery becomes a series of "redo's" - redoing an area to a greater and greater level of detail.  The first pass gives you passable roughed in track and scenery, which gets more refined on each subsequent pass.

If you focus is to get to the completed scene as quickly as possible, and interim appearance is not as important, then you will want to avoid multiple passes over the same area.

I'm a #2 kind of guy, especially when I hand lay my track.  I like to rough in the terrain with just the Homasote roadbed in place.  This gives the appearance of grading the right of way through the scenery.  Then place the ties and ballast - handlaid track favors ballasting before installing rails - for another step similar to the prototype.  At this step, I might refine the basic terrain some more with trees and ground cover and water features.  Then the rails are laid, and another pass at scenic detailing made, including installation of structures.  Sometimes the structures might come before the rail, especially if they are not track-side structures.  One of the disadvantages of this method is lack of early operations.  And scenic details close to the track get disturbed by the rail spiking and soldering process.

When I use prefab track, I tend to lay all the track before getting started at scenery.  This puts me into the position of facing a large scenery task all at once - and I tend to never get going on it.  But I have operations early on.

On the layout I am starting, I have built a portable test track with flex and sectional track to satisfy my need to run trains.  I may or may not eventually put any scenery or ballast on the test track - it currently has none.  This allows me to build the layout in sections with a pass or two at scenery before even starting on the track laying.  If I have to take time out to just run trains, I can do that while I slowly progress on the main layout.

my thoughts and experiences, your choices

Fred W

[mobilman44]

Like you indicated, the hills came first, the RR later................

I prefer to ballast last, as it gives me a bit more time to assure the trackage is as I want it and in good alignment.  Making adjustments with ballast in the way is just not fun.

[doctorwayne]

UncBob

Long as you are sure you are not going to change the track

--do whatever is easier first

 

Actually, it's not that difficult to change the track after it's been ballasted.  I ran trains for a couple of months to ensure that the trackwork was trouble-free, but later decided to remove a crossover track (pair of turnouts) on the curve shown below.  They worked fine, but turned out to be unnecessary for operations. 

 

It was a simple task to unsolder the rail joiners, re-wet the ballast and remove the turnouts.  After cleaning up the old ballast, new track was soldered in place and ballasted - there's no evidence of the former crossover.

I also re-arranged the tracks off my turntable after ballasting, as the one to the right (with the handcars) was not useable by locos due to the tightness of the curve:

 

Removing the turnout (which was used to save space) allowed a gentler curve and a more useable track:

 

Wayne

[richhotrain]

doctorwayne

UncBob:

Long as you are sure you are not going to change the track

--do whatever is easier first

 

 

Actually, it's not that difficult to change the track after it's been ballasted. 

 Wayne

I agree.  I have have to remove and replace ballasted track and turnouts on more than one occasion.  Call it poor planning.

Rich

[doctorwayne]

richhotrain

I agree.  I have have to remove and replace ballasted track and turnouts on more than one occasion.  Call it poor planning.

Rich

 

Hey!  

 

Wayne

[tomikawaTT]

doctorwayne

richhotrain:

I agree.  I have have to remove and replace ballasted track and turnouts on more than one occasion.  Call it poor planning.

Rich

 

 

Hey!  

 

Wayne

Our prototype friends call it line improvement - and a lot of it was made possible by the change from horse-drawn carts and mule-drawn scrapers to humongudumptrucks and bulldozer/front end loaders.  Better capability later, not poor initial planning.

Back to the original question.  Do whichever one needs to be done first.  I would ballast the track in the valley before putting finished scenery on the intervening hill, thereby eliminating the probability of having storm damage to the latter caused by loose, flapping sleeves.

I recall seeing a John Allen photo of what looked like abandoned right-of-way, complete with an antelope standing on the ties imbedded in ballast.  Seems he laid rail last!

Chuck (Modleing Central Japan in September, 1964)

[rrinker]

Actually Wayne, leaving evidence might hav ben a good thing - part of the grade anyway, indicating where the turnout used ot be, as evidence of a later change in track alignmnet. Of course you probably have that somewhere else - too much of a good thing ends up looking fake and contrived - so maybe there was no reason to do so here. Changing track alignment is after all something the prototype does when traffic conditions or other factors intervene - longer cars, siding needs to be extended, etc. and leaving some evidence of how it used to be gives a sense f history. Even better, perhaps, if the change is because you decided to make a change. Sometimes.

                      --Randy

 

[trainlover35]

Well, from experience doing it both ways, I have a few reasons to ballast after scenicing...

1.  It looks more realistic: ballast came after grass.

2.  You don't want grass growing over your ballast, do you?

3.  It's just easier!

[MisterBeasley]

I generally do the ballasting last.  I like to let my trackwork "age" for a long time, like fine wine, before I take that final step and decide to ballat it.  Yes, I've ripped up ballasted track to fix problems, but I'd rather not have to do that.

OK, let's be honest.  I don't enjoy ballasting.  On the other hand, I enjoy the creativity of scenery-making, so I'm more likely to postpone the ballasting task until the end.

There are a couple of cases, though, when there's a good reason to do one or the other first.  I've been putting in a swamp, a stream and some trackside ditches.  I ballasted the nearby track before pouring the Envirotex, because I didn't want glue runoff to "pollute" my pristine waterways. 

On the other side, though, I've found that anything involving plaster cloth, Gypsolite, paint or glue tends to be messy, and stuff tends to fall in unintended places.  Since it's a lot easier to clean unwanted scenic materials from unballasted track, I like to wait until the messy stuff is behind me and cleaned up before doing the relatively tidy job of ballasting.

[CTValleyRR]

A lot of folks have commented that the scenery came first, and the rails were laid on top of it.  And that's quite true.

However, having just ridden the Valley Railroad on it's opening weekend, I can assure you that Mother Nature will try very hard to make it look like your ballast isn't there at all if you let her.  Scenic materials overlaying the edge of your ballast is very prototypical.