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Gear Slipping on Metal Rod

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Gear Slipping on Metal Rod
Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, February 13, 2011 6:34 PM

I am building a structure with some moving parts.  One of the plastic gears that fits onto a metal rod is not firmly secured and is slipping.  In other words the rod (shaft) is rotating, but the gear stands still instead of turning with the shaft.

Any suggestions on how to fix this problem?

Thanks.

Rich

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Posted by bogp40 on Sunday, February 13, 2011 7:01 PM

There are a few methods to try. If the gear can easily be slid to to sid of the shaft, you could knurl the shaft with serrated jaw pliers, before repositioning  add a drop of Loctite red and the position the gear as quickly as you can.  Clean up any excess that shows.  Epoxy is another way to secure the gear.

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Posted by selector on Sunday, February 13, 2011 7:26 PM

It is exactly what I would do.  I am a big fan of epoxy for tough jobs, but you have to give the material some tooth to adhere to, and that means removing the gear and doing something to score the shaft.  This doesn't mean goughing it deeply, but just rough it up visibly with sand paper or a small file.   A good approach would be to do a cross-hatching pattern by turning the shaft lathe-like while you run the file diagonally one direction, and then stand on the other side of the shaft as it continues to turn and run the file the same way relative to you.  It would ideally produce something like a light knurling, and that would really help the epoxy. 

I would also cause some grooves in the hole of the gear if it could be done relatively easily and safely...you don't want to actually compromise the gear since so many of them have failed in the hobby these years.  But a roughened inner lining to the hole would help the epoxy to grip the gear and ensure you get the action out of the shaft and gear combo that the motor means to impart to it.

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Posted by doctorwayne on Sunday, February 13, 2011 7:37 PM

bogp40

There are a few methods to try. If the gear can easily be slid to to sid of the shaft, you could knurl the shaft with serrated jaw pliers, before repositioning  add a drop of Loctite red and the position the gear as quickly as you can.  Clean up any excess that shows.  Epoxy is another way to secure the gear.

 

Another method to do this (called "upsetting the shaft") is to remove the gear, then roll the shaft between two fairly coarse mill files.  This has the effect of slightly increasing the shaft's diameter, allowing for a tighter fit of the gear.  Add a drop of Loctite  or apply a drop of ca after the gear has been pressed into place.

 

Wayne

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 14, 2011 8:52 AM

Thanks, guys, this all makes good sense.

What I am considering, based upon this advice, is to rough up the shaft with sandpaper or a metal file, use Loctite right over the spot on the shaft where the gear will go, and then epoxy on each side of the in place gear to really firm it up.

Any thoughts or comments on that procedure?

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 14, 2011 9:02 AM

doctorwayne

 bogp40:

There are a few methods to try. If the gear can easily be slid to to sid of the shaft, you could knurl the shaft with serrated jaw pliers, before repositioning  add a drop of Loctite red and the position the gear as quickly as you can.  Clean up any excess that shows.  Epoxy is another way to secure the gear.

 

 Another method to do this (called "upsetting the shaft") is to remove the gear, then roll the shaft between two fairly coarse mill files.  This has the effect of slightly increasing the shaft's diameter, allowing for a tighter fit of the gear.  Add a drop of Loctite  or apply a drop of ca after the gear has been pressed into place.

Wayne

Wayne,

This is an interesting comment about "upsetting the shaft".  Obviously, rolling the shaft between two fairly coarse mill files is not going to increase the diameter of the shaft.  But, what does it do to allow for a tighter fit of the gear?

Rich

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Posted by selector on Monday, February 14, 2011 10:21 AM

I would use one or the other, not both.  Personally, based on my experience using epoxy as a go-to adhesive/fixer, it gets the nod.  You would need only a very tiny amount, maybe 8 cubic mm.

It won't be an easy procedure.  Because it is fluid, you would have to dam one side of the gear with tape tight to the shaft and gear's one side, then clamp the shaft vertically in a vise or heavy vise-grip so that the dammed face is lowermost.  Mix your tiny dollop of two part epoxy well, and then let it drip slowly into the area of the shaft so that it can run into the tiny orifices. 

Come to think of it, it might be better to try a gel CA or Loctite first, let it cure thoroughly, and then give the gear a firm twist to see if it will withstand the torque.  The epoxy solution would be quite involved, but if it penetrated the hole well, it would be like a diamond.

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 14, 2011 11:29 AM

Crandell,

Thanks for that good advice.

Here is what I have done so far.  I used a metal file to rough up the metal rod then applied Loctite only on the part of the shaft that the gear rests on, but not on the sides of the gear.  So, only the center hole of the gear is sitting on the shaft where the adhesive has been applied.  So far, so good.  It seems to be holding firm, but I will wait 24 hours to apply any torque with my fingers.  Then, I will apply epoxy on both sides of the gear and onto the rod on either side of it.  I have actually done this before on high stand ground throws and it works quite nice.  Of course, in that instance, we are talking about manual torque, not a 6 volt motor torque.  But, I am optimistic that this will work.  If it doesn't, then I may not have a motorized structure.

Rich

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Posted by THE.RR on Monday, February 14, 2011 1:26 PM

richhotrain

 doctorwayne:

 bogp40:

There are a few methods to try. If the gear can easily be slid to to sid of the shaft, you could knurl the shaft with serrated jaw pliers, before repositioning  add a drop of Loctite red and the position the gear as quickly as you can.  Clean up any excess that shows.  Epoxy is another way to secure the gear.

 

 Another method to do this (called "upsetting the shaft") is to remove the gear, then roll the shaft between two fairly coarse mill files.  This has the effect of slightly increasing the shaft's diameter, allowing for a tighter fit of the gear.  Add a drop of Loctite  or apply a drop of ca after the gear has been pressed into place.

Wayne

 

Wayne,

This is an interesting comment about "upsetting the shaft".  Obviously, rolling the shaft between two fairly coarse mill files is not going to increase the diameter of the shaft.  But, what does it do to allow for a tighter fit of the gear?

Rich

But it DOES increase the diameter of the rod and gives it some tooth.  You are not FILING material off the rod.  You are ROLLING the rod on the file.  This impresses the tooth pattern of the file on to the rod. Some of the rod gets dimpled, and alternate sections raise up (just a hair) increasing the effective diameter of the rod a few thousandths, giving the hub (and loctite) something to grab on to.

I usually roll the rod between the file and a hard surface, using the small edge of the file since our hubs are so narrow.

Phil

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Posted by bogp40 on Monday, February 14, 2011 1:38 PM

THE.RR

 richhotrain:

 doctorwayne:

 bogp40:

There are a few methods to try. If the gear can easily be slid to to sid of the shaft, you could knurl the shaft with serrated jaw pliers, before repositioning  add a drop of Loctite red and the position the gear as quickly as you can.  Clean up any excess that shows.  Epoxy is another way to secure the gear.

 

 Another method to do this (called "upsetting the shaft") is to remove the gear, then roll the shaft between two fairly coarse mill files.  This has the effect of slightly increasing the shaft's diameter, allowing for a tighter fit of the gear.  Add a drop of Loctite  or apply a drop of ca after the gear has been pressed into place.

Wayne

 

Wayne,

This is an interesting comment about "upsetting the shaft".  Obviously, rolling the shaft between two fairly coarse mill files is not going to increase the diameter of the shaft.  But, what does it do to allow for a tighter fit of the gear?

Rich

 

But it DOES increase the diameter of the rod and gives it some tooth.  You are not FILING material off the rod.  You are ROLLING the rod on the file.  This impresses the tooth pattern of the file on to the rod. Some of the rod gets dimpled, and alternate sections raise up (just a hair) increasing the effective diameter of the rod a few thousandths, giving the hub (and loctite) something to grab on to.

I usually roll the rod between the file and a hard surface, using the small edge of the file since our hubs are so narrow.

Phil

Phil's method will increase the shaft diameter, however you may need to exert some serious pressure to gain any depressions, thus raising some material.  This may work on softer metal of a shaft. This is why I recommended to use pliers to gain a spline effect.  Don't go overboard or you can distort and even bend the shaft. Lineman's pliers, slipjaws and even vise grips all have the staight toothed jaws to give the splined effect to hold the Loctite.

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Posted by doctorwayne on Monday, February 14, 2011 1:43 PM

Thanks, Phil:  you've pretty-well explained the principle behind "upsetting".  The material displaced from the minor grooves created by the process end up as small ridges, slightly increasing the overall diameter.  Filing the shaft, on the other hand, may result in not only a smaller shaft diameter, but the chance that the gear's centre will not be concentric with the shaft's original diameter.  If you were able to then somehow fix the gear onto the shaft, you could end up with variable gear mesh as the shaft rotates - not a good thing.  Smile, Wink & Grin

The pressure required to perform this operation isn't especially great, and it works well on fairly hard material, such as steel music wire, the same material NWSL uses for their axle stock.  Setting the shaft atop one file, then placing a second file atop the shaft and pushing along the length of the first file while applying moderate downward pressure usually does the trick in a single short pass.

Wayne

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Posted by A. Wallace on Monday, February 14, 2011 2:22 PM

Most of the suggestions have involved an adhesive or "roughing" he shaft area where the gear sits. There is another possibility: Remove the gear, and using a cutting disk, cut a very shallow grove in the shaft at the point where the gear is to be located. Then using a triangular file, cut a very shallow notch in the hole in the gear.

     Place the gear on the shaft, and align the grove and notch. Then drive a metal rod of appropriate size into the "hole" created between the grove in the rod and the notch in the gear. What this does is create a "spline" which will bind the gear in position, and prevent it from rotating about the shaft.

     This "fix" is entirely mechanical, and does not depend on the adhesion of glue, epoxy, or loc-tite to two dis-similar materials.

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Posted by selector on Monday, February 14, 2011 2:41 PM

That's also a good suggestion, to use a key.  A cut-off disk might help to score the key-hole along the shaft, but it will be very tricky to keep the disk wanting to say aligned along the axis of the shaft.  A machining tool would be better.

The upsetting process sounds good to me, although my only worry would be the integrity of the gear when trying to press it onto the slightly enlarged, and now quite rough, shaft.  I'm thinking about split gear, the great dread.  Tongue Tied

I guess there is always NWSL gears if none of this helps.

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Posted by doctorwayne on Monday, February 14, 2011 3:24 PM

selector

 

The upsetting process sounds good to me, although my only worry would be the integrity of the gear when trying to press it onto the slightly enlarged, and now quite rough, shaft.  I'm thinking about split gear, the great dread.  Tongue Tied

 

 

Keep in mind that the plastic gear is being pressed onto a metal shaft whose diameter has been increased very slightly, but not over the entire circumference.  The ridges which have been raised on the shaft will cut the walls of the gear's bore only where they make contact, acting in effect like miniature keys.  Upsetting (a procedure recommended by NWSL, incidentally) probably works best where the shaft material is harder than that of the gear.  If the gear material were similar to, or harder than, the shaft, much of the upset material would likely be removed during the pressing process, negating the effect.

As an experiment, I upset the end of a piece of 3/32" (.0938") steel axle stock.  A single pass of about 3"-4" between the two files resulted in a new diameter of about .096" (+/-), but, of course, the upset area was no longer smooth.  Unfortunately, I didn't have a suitable sloppy gear available on which to test the results. Smile, Wink & Grin

A key and keyway is an excellent solution, but one best executed with accuracy beyond the capabilities of the modelling tools which most of us have on hand.

 

Wayne

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 3:56 PM

SUCCESS !!!

Here is what I did.  I lightly roughed up the metal rod surface with a metal file, then applied a coat of CA adhesive and inserted the gear.  After letting the glue dry for several hours, I used the pointed end of an Exacto Knife blade to apply JB Weld epoxy on either side of the gear where it touches the metal rod.  I let the epoxy set and cure overnight, then tested it today with the motor torque, and it works !

Thanks guys for all of your help and advice.

Rich

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Posted by selector on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 4:36 PM

Excellent!   And you have your loco back in service, or will have shortly.  Very good news.

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Posted by bogp40 on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 5:07 PM

Congrats Rich.  The use of CA is fine for the application of the  machine shop/ structure.

I would only like to add, that CA is a brittle joint. If this was to be used on holding a gear/ part that would see torque, shock and other stress, as an axle shaft for a loco, Epoxy or Loctite is a better choice.

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 6:11 PM

bogp40

Congrats Rich.  The use of CA is fine for the application of the  machine shop/ structure.

I would only like to add, that CA is a brittle joint. If this was to be used on holding a gear/ part that would see torque, shock and other stress, as an axle shaft for a loco, Epoxy or Loctite is a better choice.

I use a product that contains cyanoacrylate ester, so I refer to it as CA glue, rightly or wrongly.

Also, Loctite is a brand name for a variety of products, but I thought that the principal ingredient in Loctite adhesives was cyanoacrylate.

Which Loctite product are you recommending?  Does it contain something other than cyanoacrylate ?

Thanks.

Rich

 

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Posted by doctorwayne on Wednesday, February 16, 2011 1:36 PM

I think that regardless of whether you use Loctite or ca, neither is acting primarily as an adhesive but rather as a means of increasing the "fit" between parts - applied after the gear is in place, it's drawn into the minute and irregular gaps between the shaft and the gear's bore, creating a rough equivalent of an interference fit.

 

Wayne

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Posted by selector on Wednesday, February 16, 2011 3:28 PM

I agree, Wayne, it may not be very strongly adhered to the metal or the slippery nylon (?) gear, but its actual structure filling the gap acts more like a whole bunch of those keys we were talking about, or maybe more like a weird-toothed inner gear in its own right that forces both the axle and gear to rotate fully synchronously.

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Posted by Graffen on Wednesday, February 16, 2011 3:52 PM

I have always gone by the advice; -If nothing else works, use green Loctite!

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Posted by Franswuh on Thursday, November 02, 2017 2:07 PM

Instead or using messy glues or epoxies try this.  I googled this problem and tried all other suggestions I could read on.  Then I got an idea:

Clean both the gear hole and metal shaft with rubbing alcohol to remove all dirt and/or old glue.  Cut a small piece of a latex balloon big enough to fit into the gear hole with just a small bit extending once the shaft is inserted.  Use 120 grit sandpaper on the shaft part that the gear will be attached to, no more, no less.  All you want to do is roughen up the shaft. (Do NOT roughen up the gear hole, just be sure it is very clean).   Place the latex piece centered over the gear hole, then press the shaft into it. It should be a very tight fit, nearly impossible to move the shaft within the gear hole.  If it is still quite movable, then the shaft is sanded too much (or worn) or the gear hole is worn from slippage).  Try a double layer of latex to tighten the grip.  If you don't succeed at this, keep trying.  It didn't fit right the first couple times I tried it, but after I go it, I had great success.  

I built a working model farm windmill with a reciprocating pumping rod gearbox at the top.  The output gear slid too easily on the metal shaft and there was no clearance to apply any glue or epoxy.  I could hold the pumping rod while the the gear slid on the output shaft.  Now I can actually stall out the drive motor if I hold onto the pumping rod!  It's enough torque to actuate a working handpump at the tower's base.  

Hope this helps.  

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Posted by BigDaddy on Thursday, November 02, 2017 6:21 PM

That is a reasonable and novel contribution to the discussion. But it is a 6 year old thread.    Just sayin'....

 Welcome to the forum.
 
 

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Posted by railandsail on Friday, November 03, 2017 7:07 AM

BigDaddy

But it is a 6 year old thread.    Just sayin'....

What is this aversion to older subject threads?

There is often a lot of good information locked up in those older discussions,...that might get ignored if the person just starts a new subject thread.

I often praise the person that takes the effort to explore what has come before on the subject rather then just creating his own new thread.

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, November 05, 2017 4:37 AM

railandsail
 
BigDaddy

But it is a 6 year old thread.    Just sayin'.... 

What is this aversion to older subject threads?

There is often a lot of good information locked up in those older discussions,...that might get ignored if the person just starts a new subject thread.

I often praise the person that takes the effort to explore what has come before on the subject rather then just creating his own new thread.

 

Brian, you make some good points, but as the OP on this nearly 7 year old thread, I have some counter points to make about reviving old threads.

I got a kick out seeing my old thread revived here, but I have long felt that the forum software should automatically lock a thread after one year of inactivity. 

What often happens, as in this case, is that a new forum member will revive an old thread as his first post. Truth be told, he probably doesn't even realize that in his search he has uncovered an old thread. He provides advice or suggestions or other commentary for an issue that was long ago resolved. In this instance, I successfully solved my problem back on February 15, 2011 and said so in my then final reply to the thread that I had created. Case closed.

What I have often argued for is to start a new thread and reference the old thread, if need be, with a link to the old thread. It would be locked but still available to read, just not to reply. This would eliminate a lot of confusion, especially when it comes to giving advice on a long ago solved problem.

It would also prevent newbies from unknowingly reviving old threads.

Rich

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Posted by railandsail on Sunday, November 05, 2017 7:21 AM

Many subject threads are NOT about solving a particular problem, but rather they document various views, dwgs, etc on subjects. So they don't neccessarily go obsolete. And these are often valuable. look at the number of subject threads that have been rendered almost useless by the latest shenanigans by Photobucket.

I find that many of us (particularly the younger folks) don't bother to look up any history of a subject, but just immediately go to posting a new but same subject....I guess I would call it the 'instant gradification' generation,. just pop it on your cell phone and get an answer. Or ask a question of your cell phone.

I grew up (now 75) going to libraries to do research. Granted the internet is a GREAT alternative to the old library, but there are lessons to learn from studying the history of a subject,...ie going into an unadvised war (how did it or they happen), etc, etc.

rant over...ha...ha

 

 

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, November 05, 2017 8:43 AM

railandsail

rant over...ha...ha 

You old ranter you !   Laugh

Look at it this way, Brian, your point of view prevails since the forum does not lock old threads.   Super Angry

Rich

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Posted by BigDaddy on Sunday, November 05, 2017 8:43 AM

What is this aversion to older subject threads?

We are not very far apart in our views at all.  I agree that some threads are bodies of "how to" knowledge and timeless.  I also agree that newbies and old timers too, sometimes miss the date of a thread.  The post made a contribution to our knowledge and I said so. 

I was gently calling his attention to the fact that not all old posts are still relevant.  Obsolete is a good term and weighing in with a "me too post" in a thread started by someone who hasn't been in the forum for 10 years is just noise.

Admittedly, this post is noise too.  Now back to our modeling.

 

 

Henry

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Posted by selector on Sunday, November 05, 2017 10:12 AM

I have been here on this forum for about 13 years.  I can't tell you how many times I have read anguished posts from guys who have found that one of their gears has split on its shaft.  It means a complete replacement of that shaft, or else a gear that will withstand the pressing into place without also splitting.

If you wrap a shaft with anything that will widen it, and attempt to press a used/old plastic gear onto that thickened shaft, you stand a greatly increased risk of splitting the gear.  It may work, it may not.  That is why using an epoxy or suitable adhesive is a better idea.  The fluid will find voids and fill them, but also stick to surfaces such that the gear will no longer rotate on the shaft.  If you split the gear, it will rotate freely and cause either no motion from the drive or a thumping and hitching motion in the locomotive.

Just sayin'....

About old threads being resurrected.  Why the heck not?  Maybe I have learned something in the interim, something that should be shared. Maybe I have since disabused myself about the efficacy of epoxies in this type of repair.  Maybe someone else has an entirely different method that works.  Maybe a new supplier has parts, better ones.  Maybe there's a handy video since added to youtube that shows a workable solution, and shows it very well.

Why the heck not!?!?

 

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Posted by railandsail on Sunday, November 05, 2017 10:52 AM

I've found that the epoxies only have a limited time to stick to the plastic gears, particularly if they are put under heavy torque loads.

And I feel it is primarily because of the type plasic those gears are made from. The epoxy will stick to the shaft, just not the gear if I remember properly (been quite awhile since I worked with the problem).

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