Hello, I'm planning valance lighting for a 24" wide shelf type HO layout. Bench height will be 48" with fluorescent tube lighting approx. 3' above the layout surface. I'm wondering if the the valance should be the same width as the shelf or overhang the edge of the layout by a few inches? Also hoping that single T-8 tube fluorescent fixtures mounted in-line will provide enough light and that the fixtures won't have to be butted up? Any help or comments would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Peter
sounds like it should work pretty well.
The single-tube approach might not cut it everywhere -- you might find a few areas that will end up needing one of the 2-tube fixtures...
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
I don't think the valance should extend beyond the layout edge. And the lights should be set inward a few inches: illuminate the layout, not the people observing. Think of a workbench or desk or similar surface to be illuminated. If your valance and its "ceiling" are painted white to reflect the light, especially if the fixtures are mounted on edge so to speak, directing light both up and down, their illumination will probably be sufficient, but I believe you better butt them together or very close together.
Dante
dante I don't think the valance should extend beyond the layout edge. And the lights should be set inward a few inches: illuminate the layout, not the people observing. Think of a workbench or desk or similar surface to be illuminated. Dante
I don't think the valance should extend beyond the layout edge. And the lights should be set inward a few inches: illuminate the layout, not the people observing. Think of a workbench or desk or similar surface to be illuminated.
I have to disagree. The best location for single source lighting for most purposes comes from over and above your shoulder, preferably at an angle to straight on. This is especially true at the work bench. A weaker, diffused "fill" light from behind (and sometimes from the front at nearly a 90 degree angle from the 1st spot helps fill in the shadows that a single source leaves. Being weaker, the fill lights don't destroy the realism of the shadows completely.
On the layout, putting the valance at the layout edge effectively back lights the model without providing sufficient front lighting on trains near the front edge. From our usual viewing angles this leaves the model dark with a lighter background - good for setting specific moods but not for enjoying the detail on our models. In most cases, it is better to move the valance 6" or so into the aisle to get the front of our models lit.
In the ideal situation, a second row of variable, more diffuse, weaker light would provide the backfill due to reflections and atmospheric refraction seen in the real world and reduce the harshness of shadows from single source lighting.
As far as distance between fluorescent tubes, that's going to be a matter of how much light fall-off you can tolerate in the gaps. Most folks end up butting the tubes because leaving gaps leaves too much of a regular dim area pattern. An alternative is to use CFLs in the gaps between the tubes. The CFLs can be reasonably color-matched to most tubes these days. And light output can be selected to fill the tube gap as well.
Last but not least, consider adding some CFLs into cheap reflectors to form a spot where a highlight is desired.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Do NOT put the valance out past the edge of the layout. Makes it a real pain to work on scenery and such and you will be hitting your head on it, regardless of how high it is. Putting it out past the edge also produces shadows when you stand in front of the light. Keep it at layout edge where you can.
Single tube lights will work fine.
Larry
http://www.youtube.com/user/ClinchValleySD40
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52481330@N05/
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i think id have to agree with Larry on this one.
ray
Have you thought about Rope Lights? I had not until I got a bunch of ad cards relating to wood working. I have called them to get a catalog, and know nothing about them so this is definitely NOT an endorsement, but perhaps something else to consider. The source is Birddog Distributing, Inc. www.pww-oct.com/bd, and their phone # is 1-888-256-1270.
Kevin
A hearty thanks for all the thoughtful responses. Great food for thought. Dante, I assume your mention of mounting the fluorescent fixture on edge would mean on the vertical instead of the more common horizontal mounting? I was pretty much set on having the valance not extend past the edge of the layout until I read the article on lighting in this months MRR on page 52. The possible head knocking is an important consideration and the pain of experience speaks loudly. I do own a tube type fluorescent trouble light, maybe I can fashion a mock-up valance over my workbench for some experimentation. The planning and preparation for this layout is gobbling up huge chunks of time and I really want to bust out the power tools and start building, but the pain of experience tells me that diving into such a project without seeking advice and adequate planning is a recipe for disaster. Again, thanks to all.
Regards, Peter
Good luck with your layout, we'd all love to see photos as you progress.
Be sure to check out these two layouts. Lots of photos with the valance you're talking about.
http://www.ucwrr.com/index.html
http://home.comcast.net/~cajonpass52/overview_2.htm
Peter, yes, that's what I meant so that you will get light reflecting off the overhead ceiling. As for whether or not you extend the valance-with the lights-beyond the edge of the layout, it has been acknowledged that the light will cast shadows from your body as you work on the layout. If you mount additional lights to kill the shadows, that's one thing, but if you only use one row of lights, I stand by my recommendation to avoid the shadows.
Rope lights seem like they would be a good option. I've used Birddog before for other types of lights and everything went smoothly. They do have a direct site though, www.birddogdistributing.com and the phone is 1-800-514-8435
-O
HO-Velo Bench height will be 48" with fluorescent tube lighting approx. 3' above the layout surface.
Bench height will be 48" with fluorescent tube lighting approx. 3' above the layout surface.
If the benchwork is 48" high, and the lights are 36" above the benchwork - i.e., seven feet from the floor - I don't think he needs to worry about hitting his head unless he's a retired NBA player.
If possible, you'd want to experiment a little - maybe temporarily put up a light with C clamps or something and see how it looks. If you have a track running within a few inches of the edge of the benchwork on the aisle side, you'll probably want to have the lights set a few inches into the aisle so the light can shine on the aisle side of the engines and cars. Be sure to test how it looks with cars or engines - it's possible the lighting on the track itself will look fine, but you'll find that a train on the track has it's aisle side in shadow.
At 36" height, you'll find the "gaps" in the lighting of the tubes isn't as noticeable as it is if you have the tubes set at only 12-18" as on many shelf layouts. Also I suspect from that distance, rope lights aren't going to give you enough light.
Sorry to have left some important dimensions out of my original post. Considering the depth of the light fixture and mount, the 48 inch bench height and a ceiling height of 86 inches the fluorescent tubes will be more like 32 inches above the layout surface. A 12 inch wide valence would put the bottom edge of the valance at about 6 ft. 2 in. above the floor. Doesn't seem like a head-banger with me being 5ft 7in., but the 48 inch bench height will surely have me on a stool when working near the back of the layout. The mock-up lighting suggestion sounds very good and I'm pondering a way to do that before beginning valance frame and bench construction. I like the way the T-8 fluorescent fixtures light a few rooms in my house, also like how tube choices can change the hues, so I'm strongly leaning towards using them for my layout. "So many choices, so little time."
Thanks again, Peter
One feature you didn't mention is that rope lighting, being a resistive load, is easy to dim. I would stay away from the rotary dimmers; I think they are garbage. Go with a good linear dimmer, like Lutron or Leviton. Remember, you will be working with 120VAC and if you don't know what you are doing, get someone in on it who does.
Rich
I used ceramic sockets and Compact Florecent bulbs spaced 24" to 32" apart. I did not extend the upper valance beyond the edge of the layout space.
See the link below
http://georgetownbranch.blogspot.com/2010/05/shelf-construction.html
Kelly
www,finescale360.com
kregan I used ceramic sockets and Compact Florecent bulbs spaced 24" to 32" apart. I did not extend the upper valance beyond the edge of the layout space. See the link below http://georgetownbranch.blogspot.com/2010/05/shelf-construction.html
Thank you,
I used the same, 14 or 13 watt = to a 60 watt bulb. It can't hurt to put them a little closer together then I did.
This forum is great. Tons of shared knowledge and great ideas. Now I'm contemplating the CF bulbs and ceramic sockets. Seems changing a CF bulb might be easier than changing a tube under a valance. Don't know which has longer life, the bulbs or the tubes? With fluorescent tube fixtures the wire nut connections are enclosed within the fixture and any exposed romex running between the fixtures can be enclosed in conduit. With the CFs I'm thinking a covered electrical junction box would be needed for each socket? Being under an overhead valance and not prone to fiddling, maybe conduit and junction boxes would be over-kill. Tightly wrapping the secured wire-nuts with a generous amount of quality electrical tape in the same direction as the wire-nut tightens, or the use of Ideal brand set-screw connectors also wrapped would help, but Ol' Murphy always worries me, especially when it comes to electricity. I have a mock-up of the bench set up using some sawhorses and a piece of left over plywood and that's been real handy in testing some track and turnout combinations. Now to figure out how to mock-up a valance to experiment with the lighting at minimal labor and cost. I'm itching to pick up that hammer and saw, but I remember jumping into my first layout, not that I didn't have fun, but ended up dissatisfied.
You are correct, the tube fixtures would contain the wires fully, more so then the method I chose. I plan on painting the ends of the exposed wires and screw terminals with liquid electrical tape.
I use a plug on the end of the layout wiring and simply plug it into the wall rather then hard wiring the layout to the home for insurance reasons and ease of maintenance. If it is unplugged I am 100% positive that the wires are not hot! ;-).
well did a bit more testing today and added two more lights @ 30" spaceing *(total of three for test ) and bye haveing the extra light coming from each side ,the 13 watt cfl @ 30"spaceing @ 15" above worked great ,so this looks like the ticket for me. my titewad method is pluged in to a wall fed bye switch,16 gage two wire lamp cord daisy chained(16 gage lamp chord could handle 1000 watts ) cheap $1.17 porcilen /pastic wall sockets( Lowes chinease bagains) and this may sound scary ,I run the 4" round fiixture thru the table saw so there 2x4 in size and fit behind my 2nd level bottem facia then drill a couple a screw holes . now the fixtures have cheap bases but a nice 4 screw wire lug (2 load 2 nuetral ),perfict for daisy chaining) ,no box abit against code ,but like stated its plug in not hard wired(so I dont need no stinken permit ).....I also dont recomend any thing I do, But I DO think screw in lighting gives more options than tubes for the same energy use 1. lets say I want more or less light lite ,its just a mater of increaseing wattage of bulbs or unscrewing a few.....2. how bought some trick photos ,chainge too incondesaints for the area im shooting then back to cfls,try that with tubes ...3. dimmable cfl tech. is new and expensive but its going to come down just like reg cfls ......I think screw in type lighting has more options for future ...J.W.
Hello, Put together a valance lighting mock-up and did some experimenting. Time and a few dollars well spent. I mounted the lights at the front of the valance and found that it takes three 13 watt CFL bulbs to nearly equal the amount of light produced by a single 4' T-8 32 watt fluorescent tube. Also mounting the fluorescent tube fixture horizontal or vertical didn't appear to make much difference. Though the CFL bulbs are easy to change and offer variety they produce much more heat than the tube. Extending the valance 6" past the edge of the shelf made a dramatic difference, reducing the dark shadow on the front of rolling stock placed two to four inches in. With warm summers and my layout being built in a non-A/C garage the deal breaker for the CFLs was the amount of heat that nearly 30 of them would generate. My old eyes prefer the cool bright light of the tube and the reduction in shadow with the valance extending past the shelf. With the 6' 2'' valance bottom edge to floor clearance I shouldn't get too many knots on the head.
Merry Christmas, Peter
Good stuff and thanks for the info. Is the ceiling inside the valance area painted white (if not, could make a difference between horizontal and vertical mounting)? Did you check for shadows when you bend over the layout to work on it?
I reread my reply and see I forgot to answer the spacing question... Like you I came up with 30" separation., actually 32" is what I used because it worked out right. Nice to see you came up with the same spacing.
Hello Dante, I used white foam core poster board to construct my valance mock-up, while not exactly a gloss white I think it made a fair representation. Again, with the tube fixture mounted vertical or horizontal I couldn't tell much if any difference in the amount of light reaching the shelf surface. With the tube light and the valance extended the 6" I do cast a very slight shadow when leaning over the shelf. Placing the valance even with the edge of the shelf a similar shadow is still cast when leaning over. The shadows are so slight that I don't think they will hamper working on the layout. Doing some really fine work might require a temporary light source shadows or not, but the single tube approx. 33" above the shelf appears to produce plenty of light for viewing and operating the layout.
Peter,
Thanks again-doing is knowing! That really helps with my lighting decisions.