Hi, all,
I've been using Scenic Cement via eyedropper to glue my ground cover and ballast down on my layout and it seems to be fine. But, most of the articles I read talk about wetting with isopropyl alcohol and then using diluted white glue. Am I wrong in what I'm doing and what's the difference? Sounds like the same thing to me.
Thanks,
Mike
There are different ways to "glue" down the scenery, and each one of us has a method that works fine for him/her. I use the white glue method, mainly for reasons of cost.
I tried both in the beginning and now prefer Matte Medium diluted to either. To me it holds better and dries clearer than white glue or scenic cement. I started using it after reading Dave Frary's book on scenery.
The main difference is how much money you want to shell out. Scenic Cement isn't a whole lot more than diluted white glue and/or matte medium with a touch of something to break the surface tension of the water. If you have a small layout, the scenic cement is probably fine, because you won't need much of it. But if you have lots of area to cover, take the same money you would have spent on the Woodland Scenics label on the small bottle, and use it to buy a big bottle of Elmer's. I use a drop or two of liquid dish soap to get the glue to flow.
It also makes the right of way "lemony fresh!"
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
When I first started my current layout back in 2000 - I was able to purchase White Glue 5 gallons at a time from where I worked (trailer plant).
I figured that I would never run out of it - well I am on my second 5 gallon container and it is nearing the bottom. The plant I used to work for is now out of business and I now have to purchase the white glue in 1 gallon continers from stores for the same price I was the 5 gallon containers.
I used the white glue to glue the Homasote down to the sub base as well as the scenery materials - so this is the method I have used over the years.
As for a wetting agent - I use the premixed windshield washer fluid (summer blend) as it is nothing more than isopropyl alcohol mixed with water. It really made gluing down scenery materials a lot faster than trying to mix the dish soap into the white glue mix.
I just have a little finger pump sprayer bottle and spray an area with the washer fluid and then add the glue - sinks right in.
If the area isn't soaked enough - just another couple of pumps on the sprayer!
I also use the larger kitchen type of sprayer bottles with the hand grip with the washer fluid in it when doing very large areas (when I am just covering new scenery areas and I want to just put something down quick).
When I did scenery - at our Club years ago on our large Lionel Layout - I used the 1 quart pump handle yard chemical sprayer (new - of course!) to apply the washer mix and even the thinned down white glue (but that was usually a one or two time only use - as we never seemed to be able to really clean out the pump sprayer) ! ;-)
I now stock up on white glue from Wal-Mart when they put the school glue on sale for 0.15 cents a bottle, in the late summer, as it works out to around $5.00 less than buying the glue in a 1 gallon size and I can just open up a single bottle as I need it and not have to worry about the large bottle drying up.
BOB H - Clarion, PA
As others have noted, white glue is a lot cheaper than Scenic Cement, especially when purchased in large amounts. Matte medium also works well, but it's quite a bit more expensive than white glue. When properly applied, white glue and matte medium are indistinguishable from one another. The key to getting good results with either is in the pre-wetting step - don't be stingy with the "wet" water, it's not expensive. I use water with a couple of drops of dish detergent added as a wetting agent. Apply enough to wet the scenic material completely through: if you don't, the glue mixture won't be drawn into the scenic material and will instead form a hard (and visible) crust on top, which often crumbles when merely touched. Just as important, don't be stingy with the white glue or matte medium, either. The wet water ensures that the glue penetrates completely through your scenic material, and right down to the base, so you need to apply enough glue that it can do so: otherwise, you'll end up with a poor bond that won't stand up to vacuuming.
Wayne
Mike,
White Glue, Matte Medium, or WS Scenic Cement will ALL work fine. From my own experimenting, WS Scenic Cement appears to be 1 part Matte Medium to 2 parts water. I can purchase Matte Medium at the local Hobby Lobby using my 40% off coupon and make at least 2-3 times the quantity of the Scenic Cement. I can also many times buy the 'one and only' bottle of Scenic Cement that my local Hobby Lobby has in stock for around something like $5.40 with that coupon.
Diluted White Glue also works, and it is less expensive. What do I use? I like Matte Medium. The reason is as follows:
White Glue dries 'rock hard' and the ballast/scenery that is glued down with it transmits noise. Matte Medium dries to a 'rubber' consistency and does not promote the transmission of noise. So far I have 4 bottles of Matte Medium and 5 bottles of Scenic Cement used up for all of my ballasting, and about 1/3 of the scenery on my layout.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Scenic Cement is too expensive, while White glue is pretty inexpensive. But when ballasting track, I use a 50/50 mix of matte medium and water. When dry, the matte medium is a lot more quiet than white glue as trains run over it. Also, is is easier to removed ballast and/or ballasted track if it glued down with matte medium which remains flexible, more so than white glue.
As far as a wetting agent, I used to mix a few drops of liquid detergent in a spray bottle of water, referred to as "wet water". Recently, I tried a spray of 70% isopropyl rubbing alcohol. I will never use wet water again. The rubbing alcohol is a superior wetting agent. It doesn't cause the ballast to "pool" when the gluing agent is applied.
Rich
Alton Junction
jrbernier ......Diluted White Glue also works, and it is less expensive. What do I use? I like Matte Medium. The reason is as follows: White Glue dries 'rock hard' and the ballast/scenery that is glued down with it transmits noise. Matte Medium dries to a 'rubber' consistency and does not promote the transmission of noise. So far I have 4 bottles of Matte Medium and 5 bottles of Scenic Cement used up for all of my ballasting, and about 1/3 of the scenery on my layout. Jim
......Diluted White Glue also works, and it is less expensive. What do I use? I like Matte Medium. The reason is as follows:
Jim, your experiences are different than mine: I originally used matte medium but switched later to white glue, mainly because of the cost. As you say, both work well to hold things in place, but I can detect no difference in noise levels from the areas done with matte medium to those done using white glue. I have some areas where the glued-in-place-scenery is pretty thick, too:
While there is a plaster-on-screen landform beneath that fill, much of what's visible is more than an inch deep, with lots of white glue mixture holding it in place. As mentioned, the scenery is plaster on screen and, in addition, the roadbed is 3/4" plywood, very well-supported, so there's not much to amplify any noise.
Also, unlike some others, I can see no difference in the appearance between the two: in both cases, the ballast, ground foam, rocks, etc. all appear to be loose material with no fixative visible.
I guess, as they say, that your results may vary.
doctorwayne jrbernier: ......Diluted White Glue also works, and it is less expensive. What do I use? I like Matte Medium. The reason is as follows: White Glue dries 'rock hard' and the ballast/scenery that is glued down with it transmits noise. Matte Medium dries to a 'rubber' consistency and does not promote the transmission of noise. So far I have 4 bottles of Matte Medium and 5 bottles of Scenic Cement used up for all of my ballasting, and about 1/3 of the scenery on my layout. Jim Jim, your experiences are different than mine: I originally used matte medium but switched later to white glue, mainly because of the cost. As you say, both work well to hold things in place, but I can detect no difference in noise levels from the areas done with matte medium to those done using white glue. I have some areas where the glued-in-place-scenery is pretty thick, too: While there is a plaster-on-screen landform beneath that fill, much of what's visible is more than an inch deep, with lots of white glue mixture holding it in place. As mentioned, the scenery is plaster on screen and, in addition, the roadbed is 3/4" plywood, very well-supported, so there's not much to amplify any noise. Also, unlike some others, I can see no difference in the appearance between the two: in both cases, the ballast, ground foam, rocks, etc. all appear to be loose material with no fixative visible. I guess, as they say, that your results may vary. Wayne
jrbernier: ......Diluted White Glue also works, and it is less expensive. What do I use? I like Matte Medium. The reason is as follows: White Glue dries 'rock hard' and the ballast/scenery that is glued down with it transmits noise. Matte Medium dries to a 'rubber' consistency and does not promote the transmission of noise. So far I have 4 bottles of Matte Medium and 5 bottles of Scenic Cement used up for all of my ballasting, and about 1/3 of the scenery on my layout. Jim
Sorry, Doc, I gotta agree with Jim on this one. My experience is that roadbed glued with matte medium is significantly quieter than white glue, but I do agree with you that matte medium is considerably more expensive than white glue. Matte medium is also easier to remove, if necessary, than white glue.
mike_brubaker Hi, all, I've been using Scenic Cement via eyedropper to glue my ground cover and ballast down on my layout and it seems to be fine. But, most of the articles I read talk about wetting with isopropyl alcohol and then using diluted white glue. Am I wrong in what I'm doing and what's the difference? Sounds like the same thing to me. Thanks, Mike
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
I've found matte medium tends to stay rubbery while holding down ballast or scenery, white glue can get very hard and brittle when it dries. In taking up old scenery, grass held down with white glue kinda breaks up into chunks, while grass held down with matte medium kinda peels off in a big piece.
I've tried just about every glue method you can think of and they all work fine and give more or less the same results. I settled on matte medium for no other reason than I happen to like it and feel comfortable working with it. I don't care about noise, real trains are a racket, so if my layout is noisy then it's just that much more realistic but again I've never noticed any difference in methods. If scenic cement is working for you then keep using it, I don't see where you will get better or worse results for it simply because somebody else used something different.
Good advice given here all around.......
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"
Wayne,
I bet your plaster over screen is a lot 'thicker' than my hardshell of surgical casting wrap. And mine will transmit noise a lot better(our club has foam and the track was quite noisy until we ballasted with real rock ballast and matte medium). I put in most of the scenery and after cleaning up, I noticed that the train noise was louder. After ballasting with Arizona Rock & Mineral ballast with matte medium, it quieted down.
My old layout had hard shell Hydrocal over wire screen, and the scenery was 'thick' at points. I had wadded up newspapers under some of the aluminum screen to keep it firm. And I never did remove the old newspapers(interesting reading when I tore down the layout). Maybe that kept it 'quiet'....
Jim, I'm sure layout construction methods have a lot to do with the final results, and I wasn't suggesting that you were incorrect in your appraisal of the noise situation, only that I didn't have the same results.
I'll leave it to those who've not yet begun ballasting to make their choice, but it's always good to let them see and hear of the varying experiences of those of us who have.
I used white glue for my ballast and matte medium for the ground foam, and here's why...
Using white glue on the ballast allows me to more easily make track adjustments. I can "break-up" the ballast, do my track alterations and reapply ballast. Ballast/track secured with matte medium didn't seem as forgiving.
However white glue seemed to turn ground turf, dirt and other items applies with it– dark. Or darker. It made things look like a recent rain had passed over the layout. Matte medium didn't have the same affect.
Why the obsession with quiet running trains? I never understood how modelers can detail and weather a loco or building until it looks like a photo of the real thing, but then exclude the sounds of a railroad as part of the realism. There are far more noises to a railroad than the bells and whistles of the loco itself, there is the slamming of couplers, hissing of air, creaking and groaning of track, banging of flat spotted wheels, squealing of bad flanges and rusty bearings just to name a few. What in all this makes a quiet model realistic?
I'm just wondering because I view my track as too quiet, the last thing I want to do for realism is to silence it further. If I could make my track squeal and creak I would be the happiest man alive, and if I could simulate the hammering of a flat wheel on a box car and then make the ground vibrate and trackside buildings rattle when the train passed I would probably die of a joy overload. As of yet I have not achieved this last measure of realism....
First I wet the area with isopropyl alcohol applied with a pipette. Then I mix white glue with water (don't know the exact ratios) and spray it on with a spray bottle. I've also used scenic cement but it's too expensive for everyday work. I've noticed, however, that the diluted white glue takes longer to dry than the scenic cement. The end result is similar though.
For some larger things (bushes and coarse grass), I use full strength white glue. When it's dry you can't even see it.
As far as I am concerned for securing simple ground cover of any type you get more bang for your buck using good old white glue and water at a 50/50 ratio.However when it comes to ballasting track I can say without any hesitation that Matt Medium most definitely is far superior then white & water. The reason being is that the white glue and water dried rock hard and as a result helps transmit sounds when your trains run. Where as Matt Medium does not dry to as had a consistency it leaves sort of a pliable springy texture if you will. The end result is a much nicer ballasting job in the end. I can't take credit for this or that it is some sort of revelation on my part. I picked this tip up right here form Lance Manheim aka Hoosier Line. Lance is by far one of the premiere modelers on our hobby and has produced many a fine railroad in his day so when someone like Lance gives advice you can pretty much take it to the bank. I have a two track mainline on my meager little basement empire and in one section it's ballasted using white glue and water mix and right next to it I used Matt Medium and there is no comparison same train running on either line Matt Medium wins hands down.
A;; that being said regardless of what you choose to use a wetting agent must be used, some like wet water but I have gotten my best results using 70% Isopropyl alcohol.
jrbernier Mike, White Glue, Matte Medium, or WS Scenic Cement will ALL work fine. From my own experimenting, WS Scenic Cement appears to be 1 part Matte Medium to 2 parts water. I can purchase Matte Medium at the local Hobby Lobby using my 40% off coupon and make at least 2-3 times the quantity of the Scenic Cement. I can also many times buy the 'one and only' bottle of Scenic Cement that my local Hobby Lobby has in stock for around something like $5.40 with that coupon. Diluted White Glue also works, and it is less expensive. What do I use? I like Matte Medium. The reason is as follows: White Glue dries 'rock hard' and the ballast/scenery that is glued down with it transmits noise. Matte Medium dries to a 'rubber' consistency and does not promote the transmission of noise. So far I have 4 bottles of Matte Medium and 5 bottles of Scenic Cement used up for all of my ballasting, and about 1/3 of the scenery on my layout. Jim
Jim make a great point about scenery cements. I follow Dave Frary's method of making the scenery cement from matte medium. As noted a quart of matte medium will produce about 3/4 to 1 gallon of glue. I don't just dilute it staight from the container and use, but will dilute to about 50/50 and allow to sit for a few days. Most matte mediums do have fillers and impuities that will settle. Just pour off and dispose of the settled waste. This now batch can even be further dilted . I will dilute it with alcohol another 30-50% depending on it's use. I have noticed that there are differing qualities of the matte medium or modge podge. The talc particulate and impurities will vary but this method will work on all brands and qualities of product.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
Mike --
From your "joined" date and number of posts, you're probably pretty new to this. You've gotten lots of good advice above, and it's all correct.
You've probably guessed by now, but it's very hard to do something "wrong" in this hobby. If your trains don't run, or your scenery doesn't stay put, well that's pretty close to wrong....but not hopeless. There are many ways to do things in our hobby, and are usually a tradeoff of convenience and cost.
One word of caution though. A number of companies (and Woodland Scenics isn't alone) offer "hobby products" at a premium price that are no different from the ordinary, every day stuff that you buy in a hardware or craft store. Some of the "homemade" solutions work better than the commercial products. If you hang around here long enough, you'll catch on to which items you should use and which you can ignore.
One thing.... you mentioned that you use an eye dropper to apply scenery materials. You can use a sprayer for this. It makes it easy to cover a large area quickly. Personally, I'm a dilute matte medium guy -- I use a 1:4 mixture of glue and water, with 2 drops of dishwashing liquid per cup of solution. Generally, though, I use a 32 oz. plant mister that I got for $1.99 at the garden store to spray this on my scenery. For ballasting, I do use a pipette, but that's more to control where the glue goes. When I'm done, the extra solution goes into an old 64 oz pickle bottle, and the sprayer gets 8 oz of soapy water sprayed through it.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
CTValleyRR One thing.... you mentioned that you use an eye dropper to apply scenery materials. You can use a sprayer for this. It makes it easy to cover a large area quickly. Personally, I'm a dilute matte medium guy -- I use a 1:4 mixture of glue and water, with 2 drops of dishwashing liquid per cup of solution. Generally, though, I use a 32 oz. plant mister that I got for $1.99 at the garden store to spray this on my scenery. For ballasting, I do use a pipette, but that's more to control where the glue goes. When I'm done, the extra solution goes into an old 64 oz pickle bottle, and the sprayer gets 8 oz of soapy water sprayed through it.
I've often wondered how people avoid getting the matte medium mixture on structures and other "permanent" details that are already in place when using a sprayer. Spraying the "wet" water does no harm (unless you've got unpainted wooden structures or buildings covered by a heavy layer of dust), but isn't the fixative mixture visible on smooth surfaces, such as roof tops or even walls? I like to use the ground cover to hold buildings in place, especially where there are no sidewalks or other things that might otherwise serve this purpose, so the buildings need to be in place when the ground cover is applied. This holds the structures firmly enough to stand up to normal conditions, but still allows them to be removeable if necessary. This also allows the ground cover to hide any gaps between the structure's base and the layout's surface, all very neatly (and quickly) done using an applicator bottle.
doctorwayne I've often wondered how people avoid getting the matte medium mixture on structures and other "permanent" details that are already in place when using a sprayer. Spraying the "wet" water does no harm (unless you've got unpainted wooden structures or buildings covered by a heavy layer of dust), but isn't the fixative mixture visible on smooth surfaces, such as roof tops or even walls? I like to use the ground cover to hold buildings in place, especially where there are no sidewalks or other things that might otherwise serve this purpose, so the buildings need to be in place when the ground cover is applied. This holds the structures firmly enough to stand up to normal conditions, but still allows them to be removeable if necessary. This also allows the ground cover to hide any gaps between the structure's base and the layout's surface, all very neatly (and quickly) done using an applicator bottle. Wayne
Wayne --
My structures are removable, with small pieces of 1/16" strip wood at the corners to hold them in place. I do the details at the base of the structures painstakingly with the pipette and small microbrush. Tall bushes and weeds near but not touching the structure camouflage the joint.
However, to keep from spaying my structures, I cover them with either wax paper or old cereal boxes, which are surprisingly large when unfolded, and will stand freely if you tear the end tabs off. I can also adjust the nozzle on the sprayer so that what would be a diffuse stream if I pulled the trigger hard just comes out as a dribble.
Having a shop towel around never hurts, either.