I've got a 3x4 section of layout that I've got track laid on and trains will run, etc. I have high hopes of eventually making an around-the-room shelf layout in this storage room that's about 11x13 or so. But, my wife thinks I'll not keep my interest and really doesn't want it going around the room to begin with. So, my plan is to finish the 3x4 section, even though it really offers no operation at this point(it's part of a freight yard) and then once she sees how great a job I did, to move on to another section to make it modular. Is there a downside to building your layout in chunks rather than laying out all the benchwork and track at the beginning, because I don't think I can get buy-in on taking that plunge at the moment! :)
THanks!
Mike Brubaker
mike_brubaker I've got a 3x4 section of layout that I've got track laid on and trains will run, etc. I have high hopes of eventually making an around-the-room shelf layout in this storage room that's about 11x13 or so. But, my wife thinks I'll not keep my interest and really doesn't want it going around the room to begin with. So, my plan is to finish the 3x4 section, even though it really offers no operation at this point(it's part of a freight yard) and then once she sees how great a job I did, to move on to another section to make it modular. Is there a downside to building your layout in chunks rather than laying out all the benchwork and track at the beginning, because I don't think I can get buy-in on taking that plunge at the moment! :) THanks! Mike Brubaker
The downside is that the first section (as you described it) will not offer stand-alone operations.
I've been where you are - my wife wanted to see some evidence that I could produce a layout that she wouldn't be ashamed to have visiting friends see. She even suggested some scenicked display shelves, because she got tired of me storing my trains in boxes between layouts.
I'm also a big proponent of building a layout a section at a time. (Modular layouts are actually a very different animal, where a group of model railroaders each build modules to be joined together at a meet or setup.) I don't want to do all benchwork, followed by all trackwork, followed by all wiring, followed by all scenery, etc. I don't want to spend even 2 months without running trains.
The big catch with building layouts in sections is having a plan that allows some form of the desired operations from the get-go. You build the 1st section, and you can operate. Build a second section and you can do even more operations. Obviously, the less you have to redo when adding a section, the better. But I would choose more layout rework to get better operations in the 1st stage every time - to the point of a complete redo of the 1st section if necessary.
Mike, you didn't specify what scale you are building in. For a 3x4 ft initial section, I hope it's N and not HO. If it is HO, I would strongly recommend pushing for one more foot of length to begin with - even to the point of doing a 1-2 ft deep shelf layout by 5ft long. It is difficult to get much operation in less length in HO. Carl Arendt's micro-layout web site (http://www.carendt.com/) has some great ideas on very small layout plans, many of which can be expanded without too much rework. An Inglenook comes to mind as a great 1st section.
As stated earlier, a true modular layout has more than one module with a standardized interface between modules. This standardized interface causes a modular layout to take more space than a similar layout where the manner in which the tracks cross the section boundaries is of little concern. If you have the extra space, or you are OK with not having much operation except when your module(s) are joined to others' modules, then modular layouts are a great way to go.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Yes, there is a downside to building it a brick at a time. As She learns that you are serious, she'll also see each successive chunk of layout eat away at her living space, and she'll balk. If you're lucky, the worst you'll have to do is take it down and move it to the garage or into a crawl space 30' from the nearest power outlet.
If you're smart, you'll wait until the next time She goes to visit Uber She, and have a beer and pizza-assisted workfest so that it presents an overwhelming fait-accompli in one fell swoop.
Trust me on this...there are no half-measures. No quarter to be given.
Crandell
What I do for layout design (have done so far) is define my area and bench work first. Next I decide on a theme. (Mainline running, with a branch line(?) or other special interests.)
I try and determine how many small towns I can have, and possibility one city with a yard and loco facilities, without them crowding one another. Usually small yards and facilities unless I have the room for larger ones. I will try to fit in a way-side industry or two just for variation as long as it won't crowd things.
Then I go looking at plans for modular railroads. I look for ones that would make good towns or cities because their track plans are usually fairly compact, and most of the way they will be switched is already determined with a good track plan themselves.If you want to start building right away, build a switching module that can become a town on part of your layout. Something about 2 X 6 or so. When this module is complete and you are tired of running it, build another module. Each module can have it's own switching control panel so it becomes a self contained unit. You train control system, DC or DCC, plus power supplies for switch machines etc. can be set up in a separate cabinet that can be used for all modules. When you get to the point that you can set up your layout, you can build some bench work to hold your modules, set them in place, then just connect then together with the mainline track.
Hope this helps.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
I built Phase 1 of my layout, a 5x12 foot free-standing table, in HO, as a single piece. Because of the way the house is layed out, and the easily-removeable-if-necessary legs, I could get this section out of the house without a lot of trouble if I had to. However, it would be quite a headache to get it into any other part of the house.
For Phase 2, which is a 19 foot by 2 1/2 foot run along a wall, with a balloon at one end for a loop, I took a more modular approach for the benchwork. I built this in 3 sections. I used barrier strips for the track power bus and the lighting bus for structures and street lights. Mostly, I tried to put rail joiners where the tracks crossed between sections as well.
But, this is not designed to be "portable" or easily moved. Instead, it is built so that it could be dismantled and moved without too much damage. So, all of the wiring for turnout control, for example, runs straight from the turnouts to the control panel. Scenery will run right over the joints, and will need to be cut if the sections must be separated, although the thin layer of plaster cloth and Gypsolite shouldn't present much of a challenge there.
I am building Phase 2 as a single entity, as if it were one piece. The mainline trackwork is all in place, although it's not all glued down yet, and only a small section is ballasted.
I have already secured the rights to the real estate, though. I'm not sure about how much more I can acquire, but this section should keep me busy for 2 or 3 more years, at least. At that time, though, I will be at least considering retirement, and our daughter will have finished her undergraduate schooling. Possession of the train room will be important, in case she comes back to live at home for a while, and the train room reverts to her "family room" again, the way it used to be.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
You can always take a module and incorporate it into a permanent layout.
It's very difficult, if not impossible, to make a permanent layout modular.
I have figured out what is wrong with my brain! On the left side nothing works right, and on the right side there is nothing left!
The advantage of a permanent layout (or one designed specifically for a particular space) is that you can design it for maximum utility - i.e. get the largest number of desired features possible for the space. The downside is that the layout evaporates when you move. This has been my story.
Sectional-modular layouts are just the opposite - lower utility, but you can pack 'em in a big crate and stuff them in the moving van.
Obviously the choice is driven by the likelihood of a relocation, but in this mobile society, its hard to put down deep roots.
If I had to do it all over again, I would design a sectional layout to fit a small, 8'x8' room. The sections would be lightly built and rest on 1"x4" sub-benchwork. When moved to a different sized room, just re-build the sub-benchwork and add sections and/or build connections to bridge the gaps. Worst case, you'd be running trains again in a few weekends.
This way you can develop the layout over many years, build and refine your equipment rosters - then build your permanent dream layout when you finally get to your retirement home.
That would be the home you move from to be closer to the grandkids!
Jim
I am trying to plan my layout with the ability to accomodate a future move with a minimum of damage to the layout. I am planning to build the benchwork, wiring etc. with the ability to sever the layout into movable pieces. I am going to use L-girder construction so what I will do is incorporate two parallel cross beams with spacers where I see the layout being cut up into sections. Likewise I will use connector strips for the wiring at the potential severance points so the only real damage will be to the track (hopefully easily rejoined with track joiners) and to the scenery. I may elect to install a continuous bus line to maximize performance which will be relatively easy to replace if the layout is moved. I really don't want to ever have to move, but if I have to then I will hopefully be prepared.
Any comments?
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Absolutely, 100 percent, no doubt about it ... go sectional. (Not modular -- sectional and modular are two different things, as has been pointed out.)
Going sectional gives you the chance to have a functional layout that is still portable. You can take it with you if you have to move, or even perhaps "put it away" when it's not in use.
There's a lot to be said for using hollow-core doors as your benchwork (my preference), although there are others who prefer different options. Whatever you choose, you'll be happier in the long run if you design and build something that you can enjoy for a lifetime. That doesn't mean your work has to be perfect; great layouts evolve, they don't just happen. But build in a manner so you can adapt your layout to reflect life's changes. If you have to move, if you find yourself with more space or less space, you always want to be able to work with what you've started, rather than have to scrap everything.
Plan for the long haul.
An excellent example of a layout designed for progressive construction is #63 Galveston Wharves Terminal in Kalmbach's latest track plan book, 101 More Track Plans for Model Railroads. The plan was also in May 1983 MR. It starts out as a single shelf switcher. Note that Section A has adequate length switching leads by itself - a not infrequent problem in shelf switchers. Section B adds a wharf and becomes an L shape. Section C adds a yard, and the layout is now a U shape. Section D is the 4th wall, and fiddle/staging. Section E adds a peninsula, and the last section is a second lower level that becomes the new staging. You can stop at any point, and never go further, and each stage has reasonable operations.
As for moving, I've done it too many times. I find moving layouts generally not worth the effort - but then I get as much enjoy out of building as I do operating. The primary issue with moving a layout - despite advance preparation in sectionalizing and so on - is that no two houses are alike. You wouldn't be moving if they were. The layout space in one house will not be the same as the layout space in the next house - guaranteed. So if you do move the layout, you spend a lot of time fitting a layout that is already a sub-optimal design for the new space into the new space. It gets much worse if the new space is slightly smaller. Don't ask me how I know this.
The next issue with moving is the changes, and their impact on your interests. Unless you are moving within town, and staying at the same job with the same circle of friends, your life will change with your move. And hence, there is a great chance that what you want to model or how you want to operate will change as well. It is highly likely your finances and hobby spending have been and will be impacted (could be either direction) by the new location and/or the move.
Finally, moving stuff is expensive, with lots of hidden costs besides direct transportation. If you use storage, storage costs quickly add up to replacement costs, and you are stuck with old stuff that you have paid new replacement costs for to store and transport. Damage happens both in storage and during moves. A few items will always go missing every move. Stuff doesn't suit the new house and the new lifestyle - already discussed with respect to layouts. So you end up replacing stuff that you spent time, energy, and $$ transporting anyway. Much of my "wealth" has ended up in Goodwill's hands within a year after a move.
Bottom line: unless you are really, really attached to a particular layout, don't move it. Just my opinion based on learning from 14 moves as an adult. The next move is the shirt on our backs, one box each of the "precious few", and that's it. We start over fresh in a new place, just like the pioneers did. We usually end up replacing 90% of the stuff anyway if we stay more than a year or two.
I started with a 4x8, three times around layout for my grandchildren to run Thomas on.
I have added 2x8 sections one at a time until it goes completely around my 2 car garage.
The advantage to building it in sections and bolting them together is now becoming clear because I am replacing sections one at a time. I don't like the way several of them came out. I don't have to tear the layout down and start over. I build a new section free standing and then remove the old one and bolt the new one in.
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Fred: The voice of experience! You make a very good point. Now you have me questioning whether the sectional method is worth the additional work or not.
Thanks
selector Trust me on this...there are no half-measures. No quarter to be given. Crandell
Crandell is right on this one. Come ashore and plant your flag. Claim your land.
My wife was away at a Dog Show for a few days and like Crandell said, the crew was in and the Grand Piano was moved from the Train Room to the living room while "I was in charge". The wife took the wiser course of saying nothing when she got home, other than to say "I see you've started on your Railroad".
She now puts the dog in charge when she goes away.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
hon30critter Fred: The voice of experience! You make a very good point. Now you have me questioning whether the sectional method is worth the additional work or not. Thanks Dave
Fred does have a lot of good points. But I would argue that the effective ability to transport a layout depends on how it was originally designed.
If you build something that occupies every possible square inch of an odd-shaped room, don't be surprised if you can't set it up in a new location. But if you design in such a way that the sections you build can be added to (or subtracted from) with a minimum of fuss, it becomes relatively easy to reconfigure and have an operational railroad up and running, without a lot of lost time and money invested in rebuilding.
I would also argue that when it takes years and a considerable amount of money to construct a quality layout (even a small one), the benefits of being able to "take it with you" far outweigh the trouble of doing so.
I certainly don't dispute Fred's logic. Since these are all matters of personal opinion, we are each the final arbiter of what is right for ourselves. Fred and I have two diametrically opposed ideas of how to go about things, but that's not important as long as we're both happy with the path we choose. For my part, I wish I had planned and built for the long haul when I first got started in this hobby. I'd have more to show for it now, and I'd have had more fun along the way. That's why I encourage others, especially if they're just starting out, to consider the sectional approach.
JTG Fred does have a lot of good points. But I would argue that the effective ability to transport a layout depends on how it was originally designed.
Agreed, design and construction definitely impact the level of effort to transport a layout. A set of modules is the ultimate in minimal effort to transport and set up in a new location. However, even the most liberal modular standards impose significant restrictions on the layout plan and use of space. I have also noted that most modular model railroaders replace their modules after a few years to perhaps a decade. I don't pretend to understand all their reasons; I just know that it happens pretty consistently.
As you say in the next paragraph, this is a matter of personal opinion. I was simply pointing out that moving a layout is not a trivial exercise, and after having moved a layout, I have frequently questioned the wisdom of even bothering. The old layout just didn't suit me in the new house for a whole variety of reasons, some of which I gave.
You are correct, that it takes time and money to build a quality layout - even a small one. Frankly, model railroading is particularly ill-suited to frequent relocations. Yet I've seen that even those who are blessed to be in the same house for decades find the lifetime of their layout to typically be 15 years or less. Those layouts that go past the 15 year point typically undergo heavy revision. And most of us don't keep a given layout going for more than 10 years, even if we do keep the surrounding house for longer.
My theory is that the cumulative changes as we grow in the hobby, and the cumulative changes in our lives and what we enjoy, eventually cause us to be dissatisfied with a layout we designed and built a decade ago. Moving both compresses the duration of change and causes major change in our lives. Thus, the likelihood of being dissatisfied with a layout after a move is much higher than before or without a move.
I have spoken in generalities, and from personal experience. As in all aspects of human behavior, generalities do not apply across the board. I would certainly agree that the sectional approach be considered in building a layout. And there is a lot to be said to having a small layout running at the new house while you design and build the next big one. As of right now, I'm in the process of building a small - perhaps temporary - layout, while I figure out what I want the "big one" to be in the new house. The aim of my post is to inform as to why the sectional approach may be more trouble than it's worth, for the beneift of consideration by those who have not gone through the many moves.
I designed and built my four-part, boxed and bolted, Seneca Falls layout to be moved with about an hour's work in sawing through screen and goop scenery and cutting some wires, plus the lag bolts. Unfortunately, while what I had intended is entirely possible, it is no longer particularly desirable. About the only thing that I like about what I see in front of me today is how I placed the turntable and roundhouse. There is nothing except my vast radius curves on my folded loop main that appeals to me today...I have moved on. So, I can understand completely what both gentlemen have said. Life injects variables over time, including learning and experience, which contribute to the seeking of new interests. I can tell you that I have 'done' the duck-under experiment. Don't regret it still, but I know I won't repeat it. That, in and of itself, will mean that what I had hoped to break apart surgically and restore elsewhere is moot.
I already have the dream plan, but once again I am ahead of myself. Who knows what I will have to work with when I move in the next year or so?
stebbycentral You can always take a module and incorporate it into a permanent layout. It's very difficult, if not impossible, to make a permanent layout modular.
This is what I was trying to say. Most layouts have concentrated switching areas and these are usually towns, industrial complexes, yards, and engine facilities. If you build these as being self contained modules or sections, not necessarily meant to be attached together except perhaps for the yard and loco facilities, you can set them a trains length apart on some bench work and have a new layout up and running very soon. The areas between the module sections is new and gets new scenery, and this can be changed from what was there before. In this case you save the modules when you get ready to move. And the room size doesn't matter as much because you can adjust the space between the modular sections.
Caveat - barring some natural or man-made catastrophe, I am living in my last-in-this-lifetime house and building my last-in-this-lifetime layout.
That said, my layout can be disassembled into either macro- or mini-assemblies. The macro-assemblies (five in number) will fit through the layout room door and load into a 24-foot bobtail.. The mini-assemblies are things like yard throats or (when I build them) specific scenic details. One, the 15 by 96 inch 'end of the short line' module, has been in semi-regular operation for almost 30 years now, and will continue in operation for the forseeable future. (It ain't broke. Why should I 'fix' it?)
If I DO move I will still be modeling the same blurred point in space-time to the same standards. That has been set in solid granite for over forty years and is extremely unlikely to change. Also, the new home of my version of Central Japan will be large enough to accept the present layout, with a few additional feet of wiggle room all the way around. If it can't be arranged that way, I won't move.
It may be true that the 'average' layout has a seven year half life, but there are Forumites who have been building and operating their dream empires for much longer than that. John Armstrong's Canandaigua Southern lasted for better than a half century with no significant change in concept or mainline track plan. For mine to match that record, I'll have to live to see my 118th birthday.
Well, why not?
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I have a general preference for smaller, more manageable layouts and thus would go for a modular design in any case. Although it requires a careful planning of the overall concept, a modular design is more flexible and responsive to changes in interest.
mike_brubaker I've got a 3x4 section of layout that I've got track laid on and trains will run, etc. I have high hopes of eventually making an around-the-room shelf layout in this storage room that's about 11x13 or so. But, my wife thinks I'll not keep my interest and really doesn't want it going around the room to begin with. So, my plan is to finish the 3x4 section, even though it really offers no operation at this point(it's part of a freight yard) and then once she sees how great a job I did, to move on to another section to make it modular. Is there a downside to building your layout in chunks rather than laying out all the benchwork and track at the beginning, because I don't think I can get buy-in on taking that plunge at the moment! :)
I've got a 3x4 section of layout that I've got track laid on and trains will run, etc. I have high hopes of eventually making an around-the-room shelf layout in this storage room that's about 11x13 or so.
But, my wife thinks I'll not keep my interest and really doesn't want it going around the room to begin with. So, my plan is to finish the 3x4 section, even though it really offers no operation at this point(it's part of a freight yard) and then once she sees how great a job I did, to move on to another section to make it modular.
Is there a downside to building your layout in chunks rather than laying out all the benchwork and track at the beginning, because I don't think I can get buy-in on taking that plunge at the moment! :)
Hi Mike --
You don't say what scale you are in.
But if you want to build a small shelf layout that later will become a section, I would check with the wife if you can change your 3 x 4 foot section into a 6 x 2 foot section or an 8 foot x 18" section, or even narrower in spots.
Same square footage, but it has the following advantages:
- You are far more likely to be able to do some kind of interesting running in a longer and narrower section (or pair of sections) than you would in one short and deep section. For model railroads, we tend to run out of length before we run out of depth.
- It probably will be easier to scenic not so deep sections to the point where they look more finished for the wife.
- A not so deep shelf may looks less intrusive for other uses of the room, and it may be easier to sell taking it from e.g. the initial 8 feet to a full wall (11 or 13 feet long instead of 8 feet), and later taking it to two walls, or taking it to three walls and so on and so forth.
Btw - nitpicking, but the difference between section and module (in the context of a model railroad) is that modules are sections with a standard placement of track on both ends of the module, so any two modules can be joined end to end. Sections are chunks of layout that only fit together the way they are designed.
Modules are good for modular clubs, where e.g. dozens of people can come together with their modules and put together a big temporary layout in a community hall or something for a weekend of running trains. But having the tracks cross the end pieces of the modules only at very specific locations put limitations on how your track plan will fit into a smaller room in your home.
Smile, Stein
I started to read the responses but stopped pretty quickly.
If the wife is questioning your commitment and the result is you are settling for a small layout to prove yourself to her then I would suggest you change hobbies.
You could try shoe collecting or somethign else that she approves of.
I think you shoud find your place first and figure what you're "allowed" to do.
Springfield PA
Hamltnblue I started to read the responses but stopped pretty quickly. If the wife is questioning your commitment and the result is you are settling for a small layout to prove yourself to her then I would suggest you change hobbies. You could try shoe collecting or somethign else that she approves of. I think you shoud find your place first and figure what you're "allowed" to do.
Guys --
This thread is starting to inch it's way towards a padlock. Back off a little on the emotions and assumptions, eh?
We need some more information from the OP before we can give more specific advice in this case.
After going over this a few times in my head I have reached the following conclusions:
First, since my layout fits into my garage now, if I move there would likely be a garage at the new house too so fitting an odd space is not a concern.
Second, with my luck, if I don't build with the option of breaking the layout into sections I will sure as heck HAVE to move it at some point in the future. Murphy's law!
Third, I am under no obligation to move the layout just because I can. If I choose to start from scratch so be it.
I think I will build in a manner that leaves my options open.
hon30critter Second, with my luck, if I don't build with the option of breaking the layout into sections I will sure as heck HAVE to move it at some point in the future. Murphy's law! Third, I am under no obligation to move the layout just because I can. If I choose to start from scratch so be it. I think I will build in a manner that leaves my options open. Dave
Bingo, Dave! I think you nailed it. Just because you have the option of moving the layout doesn't mean you have to. But it sure is nice to have that option. And depending on what construction method you use, at the very least you may be able to salvage, move and re-use your benchwork, speeding construction of a new layout.
Dave, I applaud your analysis and synthesis. You have taken the essence of the various messages and derived a useful orientation to your problem.
My wife offered me to use the room from our son.
This is my first idea, I've used my H0n3 modules:
Later I will build two more curves and get this:
I point to wye layout for little operation.
That's what you can do with modules.
Wolfgang
Pueblo & Salt Lake RR
Come to us http://www.westportterminal.de my videos my blog
Mike I guess my situation is different than yours but when I got back into the hobby (after a 50 hiatus) I designed my new layout as a bunch of 2' x 4' sections with a few odd sections where space required. I built all the sections framework, bolted them together and started laying track..... I should have stuck with the 'section at a time approach' in retrospect. The original plan was to make it all easily movable since I was planning to move within the next few years and thought I'd be able to pack it up and move it like all my other 'stuff'.' It’s been 3 years, I'm still down here on an island off the coast of Texas and the layout is about 80% done. Technically it COULD be broken down into sections but the scenery stuff on top of the sectional benchwork is not in sections. The layout is out in the garage which is habitable about half the year. What passes for winter down was fine for working in the garage but that place is a sauna 7 months out of the year. If I could do it over I would complete a section at a time inside the heated and air conditioned house before putting it in the garage. When it got too hot to work in the garage I stayed indoors and built structures.... now I've got way too many really neat structures to ever fit onto that layout. Being retired allowed me to sleep most of the day and work on my trains all night in order to escape the worst of the heat (and the neighbors believe I'm a vampire as a result). I even put in a massive screen so I could keep the garage door up as I worked which at least kept most of the skeeters away. That move is still pending and I'll salvage what I can but there is no way to break up all the hills and ground cover that would allow it to be put back together again in the new home. Bottom line: stick with the section approach- it makes it easier to change things around in the future as well
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Roy Onward into the fog http://s1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/looseclu/