redesigned a few things and I think it works a lot better now.
* green bits will be non-industrial buildings (most likely commercial of some nature)
* light blue will be light industrial or commercial buildings that require rail service
* orange/brown will be a passenger/commuter station
* dark blue will be railroad buildings (yard offices, RIP track support buildings, whatever)
any thoughts?
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
well, the building commission has changed their earlier decision on how the right of way would lay.
now it'll look more like this:
this is only a first/rough draft trying to get things to fit, and still look nice. Mostly getting some new ideas on paper.
I kinda think I'm breaking a few of the things that had been corrected on the earlier layout designs...
steinjr NeO6874: I'll also check to see if I can have a track come in from the other direction. The pictures of the tower that I've found online make it look like it only fits together one way... not that I couldn't bash it to fit backwards... but, we'll see when i grab a kit. Mmm - you mean this one: http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-3262, right? I can't quite see why you would have to kitbash it to enter the coal delivery shed from the front instead of the rear.
NeO6874: I'll also check to see if I can have a track come in from the other direction. The pictures of the tower that I've found online make it look like it only fits together one way... not that I couldn't bash it to fit backwards... but, we'll see when i grab a kit.
I'll also check to see if I can have a track come in from the other direction. The pictures of the tower that I've found online make it look like it only fits together one way... not that I couldn't bash it to fit backwards... but, we'll see when i grab a kit.
Mmm - you mean this one: http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-3262, right? I can't quite see why you would have to kitbash it to enter the coal delivery shed from the front instead of the rear.
Should have said "modify". also, for some reason I was thinking the shed only had a roof that sloped in one direction rather than having a peak in the middle. Though, taking another look at it, it seems the access WOULD be from the "front", since this is a more or less 180 degrees from how it would be positioned on my layout.
steinjr NeO6874: Yes, the plan for the commuter station came out of this month's MRR actually. The plan is to have the road locomotive arrive with a 1-2 car train, and a switcher will couple on to the cars, and move them to the other track (allowing the road locomotive out to get serviced). Since the cars are nothing more than day coaches, there's no need to turn them or anything. Did MRR have their station station tracks for all practical purposes inside a box with limited access while planning to couple and uncouple cars for every arrival or departure?
NeO6874: Yes, the plan for the commuter station came out of this month's MRR actually. The plan is to have the road locomotive arrive with a 1-2 car train, and a switcher will couple on to the cars, and move them to the other track (allowing the road locomotive out to get serviced). Since the cars are nothing more than day coaches, there's no need to turn them or anything.
Did MRR have their station station tracks for all practical purposes inside a box with limited access while planning to couple and uncouple cars for every arrival or departure?
well... not really....
steinjr It might be easier to have the passenger train head from staging up to the runaround on top, then run the engine around (or swap it out for another engine) and then head down past the passenger station before backing into the station to let passengers embark or disembark. Would give you a longer run, switching moves out in the open, with good access, and allow you to not waste the first foot of passenger platform on holding the arriving engine. Not saying you have to do things this way or that way. Just making various suggestions - you get to decide if any of them make sense, given what you want to accomplish :-) Grin, Stein
It might be easier to have the passenger train head from staging up to the runaround on top, then run the engine around (or swap it out for another engine) and then head down past the passenger station before backing into the station to let passengers embark or disembark. Would give you a longer run, switching moves out in the open, with good access, and allow you to not waste the first foot of passenger platform on holding the arriving engine.
Not saying you have to do things this way or that way. Just making various suggestions - you get to decide if any of them make sense, given what you want to accomplish :-)
Grin, Stein
Now, that makes a lot of sense! I should be able to swap out the locos in the yard there, or remote-uncouple the road loco (via a kadee/clone uncoupling magnet) in the terminal before sending the loco off to be serviced.
NeO6874 I'll also check to see if I can have a track come in from the other direction. The pictures of the tower that I've found online make it look like it only fits together one way... not that I couldn't bash it to fit backwards... but, we'll see when i grab a kit.
NeO6874 Yes, the plan for the commuter station came out of this month's MRR actually. The plan is to have the road locomotive arrive with a 1-2 car train, and a switcher will couple on to the cars, and move them to the other track (allowing the road locomotive out to get serviced). Since the cars are nothing more than day coaches, there's no need to turn them or anything.
no! not at all stein! definitely like the suggestions, they'll really help keep from having to tear out parts later on .
Gonna try and answer these in sequence.
NeO6874 Thanks stein! I think we're on the same page. This is the yard after taking your (earlier) suggestions and re-working things: The switchbacks (save for on the a/d track) are gone from the yard, and everything should be relatively usable with little trouble.
Thanks stein! I think we're on the same page. This is the yard after taking your (earlier) suggestions and re-working things:
The switchbacks (save for on the a/d track) are gone from the yard, and everything should be relatively usable with little trouble.
I like the fact that you removed the see-sawing to get into the engine service area, and the switchback spur along the wall.
If you look a little left in your plan - do you still have a switchback as the approach lead for the coal delivery track (left end of your runaround)?
If so, why? Why not let your coal delivery track come in from the other end of the shed (upper right instead of lower left)?
And let your crossover at the left end of the runaround go from upper left to lower right - gives you more space for whatever you are running around on the track above.
You still have your machine shop off a spur coming out of the turntable? Why not run that off the left end of the runaround, as in my sketch? Would give you a longer (and straighter) access to the machine shop, and allows you to deliver cars there too - supplies, or cars to be repaired or whatever.
Not so easy to have an engine pushing a disabled engine or a car onto the turntable, and then have another engine standing on another spoke off the turntable to shove it into the machine shop, eh?
As for the passenger station, it's planned to be right here, along the north/south run (on the west wall): The platforms are underground, and there will be a station above the tracks (possibly the walthers union station). That green "wall" is supposed to simply designate where the pillars holding up the street above will be -- there are a few structures that I want to put on the layout that won't fit whatsoever in an industrial district, so this gives me the best solution for having industrial and commercial in such close quarters. The tracks should be approximately 4 - 4,5 mm (1,5 - 1,75") from the walls. Close, but not horridly so -- obviously this distance might not survive the "Plywood Pacific" stage of building the layout.
As for the passenger station, it's planned to be right here, along the north/south run (on the west wall):
The platforms are underground, and there will be a station above the tracks (possibly the walthers union station). That green "wall" is supposed to simply designate where the pillars holding up the street above will be -- there are a few structures that I want to put on the layout that won't fit whatsoever in an industrial district, so this gives me the best solution for having industrial and commercial in such close quarters.
The tracks should be approximately 4 - 4,5 mm (1,5 - 1,75") from the walls. Close, but not horridly so -- obviously this distance might not survive the "Plywood Pacific" stage of building the layout.
Okay - you want an underground commuter passenger station here, allowing you space to build more or a city above ground.
But two short tracks side by side under the station for the trains? Seen through archways or something, behind two other buildings (the freight house and the triangular building), with a passenger terminal on top. You will not be able to easily reach stuff on either of these station tracks.
How about cutting it down to one track, which can be longer and have no turnout to make trouble in an inaccessible location, and then use the space between the main (along the wall) and the one station track for an impression of a passenger platform?
Operationally, are you planning to back a passenger train of maybe 2 cars from staging along the lower wall into the spur under the RR station and just leave it there for a while, before heading out again?
That will certainly get it out of the way for other trains, but it won't give you much of a run from staging to station, and it won't allow you much chance of turning and servicing the engine or anything like that.
I hope you are not feeling that I am picking too much on your plan. The purpose of sharing a plan is to get comments on it and suggestions for change. But you don't have to follow the suggestions you get :-)
NeO6874 I like the designs you came up with, though the spacing looks impossibly tight -- not to mention the curves and turnouts. Was your design in N scale perhaps?
I like the designs you came up with, though the spacing looks impossibly tight -- not to mention the curves and turnouts. Was your design in N scale perhaps?
Nope, H0 scale :-)
Track spacing center to center is 2" for parallel straight tracks. Curves in upper left corner was 26" radius. Sharpest curve on layout is a somewhat nasty 18" S-curve into the coal delivery track. Everything else is 30"+ radius. All turnouts (except a curved turnout down towards the coaling tower) were Peco code 75 mediums - about a #6.
Here is a picture of an 24" wide area of my layout that uses 2" track spacing, Peco medium turnouts and leaves 2-3" for backdrop flats:
Your layout is an inch short of 2/3rds of the width of the layout in the picture above. There are five tracks side by side between the wall on the right and the mainline (on the raised embankment). Does not leave much space for scenery in this area, but is not "impossibly tight" :-)
I like the designs you came up with, though the spacing looks impossibly tight -- not to mention the curves and turnouts. Was your design in N scale perhaps? I never intended any industries along the north wall (save for the left corner, which may honestly get cut in favour of longer yard trackage).
Hopefully this'll answer your queries Paulus:
NeO6874 Thanks for the suggestions stein. Took a look at that section -- get this, the geometry (and spacing) of the turnout off the A/D track lines up perfectly with one of the two tracks going under the coaling tower. can reach the other one with no trouble with a switch coming off that "main" lead. Thanks for pointint that out!! Now a locomotive will be cut off from the train, the switch will be thrown, and it will back down (under the sanding and coaling towers) to the TT.
Thanks for the suggestions stein. Took a look at that section -- get this, the geometry (and spacing) of the turnout off the A/D track lines up perfectly with one of the two tracks going under the coaling tower. can reach the other one with no trouble with a switch coming off that "main" lead. Thanks for pointint that out!! Now a locomotive will be cut off from the train, the switch will be thrown, and it will back down (under the sanding and coaling towers) to the TT.
The track plan you have made for the upper wall area has a lot of switchbacks, of the entire cluster of tracks up there, only one track (the second down from the top wall) can be used to hold cars without blocking off access to other tracks:
How about deciding that the yard will be switched from the left, and try to make as many tracks as possible branch off towards the right ?
It would also be good to try to combine as many functions as possible in those pieces of track that will have to be kept open anyways to allow access to things.
Here is a sketch to illustrate what I mean:
The track that will be busiest here is the one in front of the depot. You cannot switch the industries along the top or have traffic towards or from the NE branch while there are passenger trains loading or unloading at the depot.
But it is fairly easy to cut off the passenger engine and shove the passenger cars into any stub ended track once passengers have disembarked.
Arriving trains from the NE branch has to go into the track past the depot. And then you either back it out on the main and pull into another track, or have a switcher pull the cars off the arriving train and shove the cars into another track.
The short runaround up by the depot also could be used to run around cabooses for outbound trains, so the caboose can be tacked onto the end of the train before it departs.
Or you could put in a double ended caboose track with room for a couple of caboose off the yard ladder:
An arriving train on the main can go into any track. If they go into the one above the lowest multi-use track, then the engine can easily be cut off, run around the cars, take the caboose of the back and shove that into some available track, before heading down to the engine facility.
If they go into another track, a switcher will have to pull the caboose and cars off the engine before the engine is free to go to the engine facility.
Access to the machine shop is now not dependent on an engine being able to steam there under it's own power, and you now also can use the machine shop for car repairs.
Just a couple of suggestions - not a given that they will work for your vision of this area.
Smile, Stein
Looks way more fun than the first layout.
Ken
I hate Rust
hi Neo,
3 comments additional to Stein's
* tracks way to close to the wall
*very short passing sidings
* some nasty switchbacks
But in general, i am not sure where your passenger station is; is the lower yard intended for staging? You were describing all kind of interesting moves, they do not make much sense to me without knowing background information. On a small layout like yours you probably can't have every thing. Is your terminal is the end of a short branch or the end of a longer one. Do you really want mainline and local passenger and freight trains? Is a dedicated switcher for the passenger train really needed? If you could focus on an existing situation it would be much easier.
All kind of moves are supposed to be done at the very same time, is your layout really suited for 3 operators? Are you operating a lot with friends?
In "How to design a small switcher layout" Lance Mindheim discusses these underlying questions. It might be a good book to read. Just as "track planning for realistic operation" by John Armstrong.
wish you the best
Paul
Some good (IMO) online resources on track planning/layout design/operations:- Article collection, Gateway Division, NMRA- Layout Design Special Interest Group Layout Planning Hints- Byron Henderson's Layout Design blog - and http://www.chipengelmann.com/
Maybe this will help clear things up. The south wall (with the door) only has space for a 6-7" shelf... so that's just a staging yard.
The upper right corner is the only "real" yard in the layout. My vision for an operating session will be this:
The curved turnout, and other short runaround in staging are there for use by the local freight as need arises (and to assist with handling trains longer than 1-2 cars in the industrial district, as there are a combination of facing- and trailing-point moves that need to be accomplished)
NeO6874 hmm... guess you all think the last plan is as lackluster as I do. here's the improved plan (colour coded and all). The green "walls" don't actually cover up the tracks. I'm thinking of having an open - walled tunnel there (with concrete pillars or something) holding up a street with a few more commercial places (tunnel will be about 3.5-4" high inside.) Mainline has a minimum radius of 26". With the exception of the passenger station turnouts (which are #8), all turnouts off the main line are #5. There are a few #4's in the town's tight areas, though with short cars/trains, and slow speeds there shouldn't be any issues (note none of the #4 turnouts are off the main). All turnouts in the engine facility are #5 as well. #6 would have been preferred, but I had to give up too much to make them fit. The upper left corner will house some large 2+ storey business -- cars received downstairs, business conducted at street level the triangular structure will be... something. Probably a cutaway view of the interior of a small factory/workshop Other rail served industries include a team track/transfer terminal the passenger station (also will be a 2-storey affair) fuel oil or coal dealer the railroad's coal & sand needs I realize this isn't all of the structures pictured, but I haven't decided what the other businesses will be yet I don't think there's anything that's too cramped, all of the stub end/escape routes are at least 13" long before coming to the switch points, so any of the locomotives can navigate through them (since I'm using the 90' TT, all locomotives are relegated to 12" or shorter). The only "bad" area that I see is the shorter of the two passenger station tracks. it looks just a hair short to hold a locomotive and 80' car, but we'll see what happens... that might end up being the departures track and the locomotive will only couple on as the train is ready to depart.
hmm... guess you all think the last plan is as lackluster as I do. here's the improved plan (colour coded and all).
The green "walls" don't actually cover up the tracks. I'm thinking of having an open - walled tunnel there (with concrete pillars or something) holding up a street with a few more commercial places (tunnel will be about 3.5-4" high inside.)
I don't think there's anything that's too cramped, all of the stub end/escape routes are at least 13" long before coming to the switch points, so any of the locomotives can navigate through them (since I'm using the 90' TT, all locomotives are relegated to 12" or shorter). The only "bad" area that I see is the shorter of the two passenger station tracks. it looks just a hair short to hold a locomotive and 80' car, but we'll see what happens... that might end up being the departures track and the locomotive will only couple on as the train is ready to depart.
Couple of suggestions/comments:
1) You seem to have a lot of yard tracks of various kinds relative to industry tracks. There seems to be one yard along the bottom wall. Another (hard to reach?) under the raised road along the left wall, and a third in the upper right hand corner.
2) You seem to be sawing back and forth quite a bit to get down to your turntable at the upper right.
Smile,Stein
good news everyone! The zoning board has signed off on the below plan. It's still an extremely rough draft (don't have any track laid out for the "town" yet, and all the tracks around the TT are for spacing purposes, so I wouldn't put one track at 10 deg, and the next at 15 deg. ) A cleaner draft will be posted soon, but I wanted to get this up for critique/further ideas.
In order to make things work, the branchline has a single track mainline leading in to the A/D track in the local yard (two tracks north of the A/D track). The track immediately to the south of the A/D track is for the switcher runaround, and has a stub-ended caboose track coming off of it. It also acts as the lead to the roundhouse (those tracks will need help, since I think they're too curved to fit under a coaling tower. I might need to shift the bumpout further west or re-work the trackage possibly use a wye turnout...
As I mentioned, most of the trackage around the TT won't be there as it was intended simply as spacing. There will be a few outdoor storage tracks for wheels and possibly a wreck train.
The tracks to the northwest lead to one or two small local industries (don't know what yet, maybe a coal dealer and warehouse/team track).
The mainline continues south through the town of Anywhere, USA (local industry trackage not drawn in) . There will be a passenger station along the wall, or stub-ended in the northern area, just south of the curve (nothing fancy, one, maybe two tracks). The town will also have a few industries/local businesses that receive carload freight, if the team track won't fit in the corner, then it will be here somewhere as well.
the south wall has a small 3 track stating yard representing the interchange with the PRR mainline. The southernmost track is the "AD track", and I think I'll add a short one-track removeable extension to that so I can pull the locos out without having to run them backwards to reset things. there's also a switcher pocket over there so I can "turn" the freights and make them ready for another run (OK, so I'll just be taking the caboose and setting it at the end of track 1 or 2, with the rest of the train recoupled to it)
Maximum length of the trains is approximately 3-5 40' cars in the yard tracks (sans caboose) and I think I can handle that in the staging yard as well.
anything major I'm overloking?
thanks for the suggestions guys, will see what I can do with the height. initially went with the low height because all the current surfaces (desks, bookshelves) are 28-29" so it would lessen the benchwork needed. I was planning on running trains from an office chair in order to deal with that.
I just double checked the heights of things currently in use, and provided that I can keep the lower edge of the layout above 46" (incl benchwork) , i won't have any clearance issues with the PCs. I will however need to figure out a comfortable height -- using height marks on the wall 52-54" _looks_ like it'd be OK; but I'd rather be sure than stuck with an uncomfortable height.
Never thought of a peninsula, although the room is used as our office/computer room, so I'm not sure how well that'll go over. I was just perusing the latest issue of MR, and saw that Jerry Strangarity used a bumpout section to house the RH & TT. Looks like that's about a 30x48" section, and he used a switchback coming off the yard to allow access. taking some wuick measurements of the current plan, it looks like I can get away with an 18" bumpout about 40" long to get everything to fit.
am definitely going to take these ideas and see what I can come up with. will post some new plans soon as they're drafted
Got to agree with Stein here, go higher. That way you can go over the desks, computer monitors, whatever, without interfering with their usability, especially if the benchwork is narrow. That gives you 3 walls of length which should allow much more variety. Say a small engine terminal/yard on one side with some local industries on the other - a job run under yard limits by a switcher crew. Or 2 or 3 blocks worth of urban modeling - if the modeled area uses 2 walls, the third can be your staging. Keep it narrow - 2 tracks wide but since they would be long relative to the rest of the railroad, you could use serial staging where each track holds more than one train. Or maybe wide enough for 3 tracks plus a little - 2 hidden as staging and a visible one out front with flats for a backdrop representing an interchange track with a major railroad.
Plus unless you have the room covered in chair mats or it has a hard surface floor, operating on a layout only 29" high is gonna be a backbreaker if you are around average height. My layout is somewhat compromised on height because my room has a sloped ceiling. I wanted to build at around 54" but at that height I lost over a foot of width which junked the penninsula idea for the cement plant vs building it at 48".
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
NeO6874 Givens: Can't make the "main" table much wider than 17", if any (maybe 3/4" tops) due to the closet door at the roundhouse end. the CFO might allow widening at the other end (longshot[:)} the desks are unusable real estate due to computers, etc on them. However I can use the desk next to the work bench to set car cassettes on layout height will be approximately 29" from the floor (give or take 1/8"), so as to match the height of the existing desk/workbench.
Givens:
Is that really a given? 29" from the floor is pretty low for a layout. Any reason for why your layout cannot be at shelves say 50" off the floor, and vary in depth along the length of the shelf?
Might give you a little more length if you can run a shelf (even a narrow shelf) above the desk at the left end.
It might also (but that is a more political issue) be possible to run a peninsula down from the top wall into the center of the room - not necessarily at 90 degrees off the top wall - nothing to prevent you from running a peninsula off at e.g. a 60 or 75 degree angle. Depends on what other uses the center of the room has, and the amount of traffic.
Might be enough room for a turntable and roundhouse there. You could do urban switching along the narrow shelf above the workbench and desk and along the narrower part along the left end of the upper wall (by the closet).
Just a very rough idea.
cudaken I am guessing the CFO is the Other Half? Couple of things come to mind. 1 Could you raise the layout to clear the computer equipment. 2 Could you move one of the desk to the center of the room or side by side? 3 Around the wall with duck under or lift up gate, and still leave room to get in the closet? 4 Guessing you are HO, what about N scale with the limited spaces? I am spoiled with 500 square foot and I am a Rail Fan, so I am not into switching that much, but I do some. My self, I would go N or Z if I had it all to do over. Cuda Ken
I am guessing the CFO is the Other Half?
Couple of things come to mind.
1 Could you raise the layout to clear the computer equipment.
2 Could you move one of the desk to the center of the room or side by side?
3 Around the wall with duck under or lift up gate, and still leave room to get in the closet?
4 Guessing you are HO, what about N scale with the limited spaces?
I am spoiled with 500 square foot and I am a Rail Fan, so I am not into switching that much, but I do some.
My self, I would go N or Z if I had it all to do over.
Cuda Ken
1. I guess I could, thought it'd be easier to have tracks coming off the bench for testing purposes. It's about a 2' - 30" increase. which would put the tabletop at about chest level.
2. would need to check with the zoning dept (aka CFO, aka my wife)
3. trouble with the closet is that it's one of those whole wall sliding door ordeals. I don't want to be having to move things just because I need to get something out of the closet. It's a pretty heavily used closet since there's not much storage in the kitchen
4. yeah, I thought I mentioned HO in the givens. Tried N about 5-6 years ago, and wasn't too happy with it* -- even though certain members here would consider things "horribly oversized", I like it. Not to mention that there are a *LOT* of kits available; I'm not much a fan of RTR.*it was probably trainset quality... but I've got a good number of trainset HO locos that I've been able to tweak reasonably well.
You need to decide how much operation you want to be able to do. Engine servicing is pretty limited. Given that, a while ago Model Railroader ran a piece on a very compact engine servicing layout. If someone could post the issue that would be great.
Lee
Good news everyone! Initial approvals have been secured from the CFO that the Pennsylvania Railroad can expand its operations to anytown USA (going to protolance this layout...). Currently the railroad is drafting plans for a new engine servicing facility, a map of the site is below:
Construction on the proposed site is still pending final approvals from the CFO, as well as confirmation on continuation of the current leasing agreement for the real estate (hey, if I can secure a basement, this can wait ).
On to the important stuff:
Druthers:
(have two sets here, torn between a servicing facility and urban, a la Sweet Home Chicago)
For the engine facility
For the urban layout
Let me know what you think.... as you can see, I'm kind of torn between the servicing facility and an urban/swtiching layout... I just haven't had the opportunity to put a trackplan together for that. If the space constraints would be better suited to that, let me know.