Allegheny2-6-6-6 That way would require you use a small amount of hard-shell scenery to blend the grades with the extruded foam. It's easily done with cardboard strips and a hot glue gun. I have the scars to prove it.
Most of my "real layout", the one I'm transitioning to, will be done with cardboard strips and plaster hardshell. Though I won't mind a bit using foam wherever it works and seems a better choice. Gonna be using spline roadbed construction. Already got the splines cut and standing by. Any yards or large areas will probably be shallow foam over plywood. The helix itself will be cut from plywood.
Allegheny2-6-6-6It's a tough call exactly where to put it, I myself would try to keep the sump pump area as open as possible for obvious reasons.
Definitely agreed. I keep eyeballing the sump-pump area, its such sweet location, but you're right that I'm probably asking for trouble there-- and probably at 3am too :-) I will be building sections in front of the pump area, but they'll be liftouts that can come out if need be. Its harder to make a helix that way. I wouldn't wanna try anyway. Too easy to get it out of whack.
Allegheny2-6-6-6Same goes for your office door. I would do it now before layout construction goes into full tilt and then it's virtually impossible.If you have the room and the means to do it do it now what is she going to tell you to put it back the way it was.......lol
If the door was there I could take the extra 2 or 3 feet I'm leaving for the walkway and I'd have room for some nice big turning loops-- could set up a nice double-loop herniated & reverted run so I could gain the altitude, pop out now and again, and hide a lot of the elevation gain.
I *so much* preferred my old layout plan. (sigh)
The irony is that when its all said and done, I'll bet ya a crisp, new $100 bill that she never even moves down here, and her quilting room will stay upstairs forever. Of course, otoh, when it becomes obvious that's how its gonna go.... (rubbing hands) there'll be plenty of room to expand the layout! :-)
John
Lee,
How many turns is that?
john
With that kind of layout space I would definitely opt for splitting the helix up into sections until you get to the desired level. I would modify your extruded foam application slightly by using 1"x4" risers and 3/4" birch plywood subroadbed on the grades and use what ever your planning on using for roadbed on top of the 3/4" birch plywood. I can see how else you would do it using extruded foam. That way would require you use a small amount of hard-shell scenery to blend the grades with the extruded foam. It's easily done with cardboard strips and a hot glue gun. I have the scars to prove it.
It's a tough call exactly where to put it, I myself would try to keep the sump pump area as open as possible for obvious reasons. For the life of me can't see how guys would build boxes so to speak around their furnace or hot water heater to hide them from sight and build a layout around them. I try to anticipate that what can go wrong will go wrong so why not relocate the utilities in an out of the way place. Same goes for your office door. I would do it now before layout construction goes into full tilt and then it's virtually impossible.If you have the room and the means to do it do it now what is she going to tell you to put it back the way it was.......lol
I say you and Jr. have a majority vote so therefore you get more room. looks like she'll just have to give up some more space.
Very nice layout space I am slightly green with envy.
Helix? What Helix? I don't know what your talking about...
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
If you're building a multi-deck layout, use the fascia and valances properly to frame your layout and box in the helix with fascia on the outside and just scenic the area above it on the top level.
Thus the helix is hidden and the box around it simply blends into the rest of the fascia, the entire presentation of the layout is consistant and the train just disappears for a few moments and reappears immediately above. Hidden track doesn't need to be considered "evil" as long as it is uncomplicated. It adds to the length of the run and distance between towns and sidings, something all too often lacking on space-constrained model railroads.
Our club layout has a number of helices and hidden connecting ramps; the key is that the train always reappears in roughly the same place it disappeared, just above or below on a different level. It's layouts where a train disappears and then reappears 20 feet away on the opposite side of the room that would be a nightmare to operate. Our hidden ramps may take some torturous routes to the far end of the layout space to make the turnback loop around so that large blob of dead space can be used by 3 or 4 different helices or ramps, but they're all carefully designed to reappear so that the operator doesn't need to move in order to find the train when it reappears.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
Allegheny2-6-6-6Gradual increases in grade to get from one level to the next are fine if you lots of room for long expansive runs to reach the next level with out your track work resembling a goat trail.
Man, if there were ever an appropriate metaphor to describe the situation, you just hit it in one.
Allegheny2-6-6-6If I were to tear it all apart and start over (something I pretty much do every night in my head anyway) I would try and work in two or possibly three semi helix's to reach the level(s) where I wanted my train to be.
Yeah, that's what I've been doing. I really hate this new track plan-- space I have to design for. Its just enough to seem "big" and yet just small enough to be cramped in all the wrong ways and places.
Allegheny2-6-6-6The other option is that a helix doesn't have to always be circular, it can also be oval shaped which would be more in line with trying to make the helix part of the layout it self rather then just a means to move trains up and down
Yes, oval-shaped is what I've been thinking about, or else-same radius circles stepped-back. That's what I was talking about in my original post.
(Muttering out loud...)
A couple of weeks ago I had a slightly different shape going for the layout. Same benchwork, just added a bridge (slab) across them and made it a spiral (you can see it in the photo below, just in front of the ladder). Was still probably going to need a helix but hadn't gotten around to placing it in my mind. Two or three candidate spots, plus there was still the possibility of a visible climb, albeit a little contorted.
Here's an image of the space:
The three helix spots, in no order of preference:
1. Where I'm standing, approximately in the absolute corner. [This is also where I'm mocking up the helix presently in the original post & conversation.]2. Slightly to my left but forward a little, about where the ladder is, to permit access (entrance) into the layout-- through where I'm standing, around the corner and in past my kid. The layout was still a "spiral" then.
3. Just behind my kid to the right in the photo. There's a shallow (2-3 foot) indent where the sump pump and crawl-space access are. Not deep enough to tuck a helix completely out of sight though. It would take over the aisle and require some other method of access for the layout.
The angle in the benchwork to the left (on back a little) follows the contours of the (semi-arbitrary) division line between "my side" and "her side", and the angle itself is physically a closet that juts out at an odd angle and forces the pathway to go around instead of straight past-- and is one of my biggest consternations. I am forcing myself to leave walk-way room between the layout and the closet. Even though I'd much rather just punch a new doorway into the office on the other side of the stairs and then it wouldn't be a problem at all. My wife doesn't want to do that though-- she'd prefer to keep making my life difficult.... (aren't women wonderful??? Shhhh--- don't even answer that!!! )
What I am about to describe has a prototype!
The rail line enters a long-ish tunnel across a curved bridge. The far end of the tunnel is also curved, and lets out onto a narrow ledge on the face of a near-vertical cliff (think of the "Highway of Death' in the Andes, only with rails,) It wraps itself around this jutting blob of rock, tunneling through spurs and bridging ravines, until it gets almost above that first tunnel. Then it punches through again and repeats the performance - and once again. On the fourth level, it figure-eights through a short tunnel and goes across the outer rock face in the opposite direction, finally getting enough height (on a continuous 5% grade!) to break away into the upper level of the gorge that has that spiral-tracked mountain at its mouth.
The location is the Tzu-li-shan spiral on the Alishan Forest Railway, in Taiwan. It is a truly awe-inspiring ride - a real spiral (not quite a helix) most of which is visible track.
One comment about the grade - it is continuous and unvarying. As the turns tighten and the length of track in each full 'circle' becomes shorter, the railhead-to-railhead height differential is also reduced.
My own loops are more Tehachapi than Tzu-Li-Shan - more than 360 degrees, but not as much as 540 degrees. Once I install scenery, both will be totally buried.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
John I understand the frustration of a helix being this big lump of stuff you have to deal with in your train room but as I am learning the hard way some times your better off biting the bullet and using the helix. Gradual increases in grade to get from one level to the next are fine if you lots of room for long expansive runs to reach the next level with out your track work resembling a goat trail. If I were to tear it all apart and start over (something I pretty much do every night in my head anyway) I would try and work in two or possibly three semi helix's to reach the level(s) where I wanted my train to be. Lets say you have a helix (these numbers are purely subjective) with 8 complete turns why not break them up into 4 units of two spirals that could easily be hidden inside of a mountain etc.It would entail a lot of running back and forth if you will over the layout but on the bright side that means more mainline running right? The other option is that a helix doesn't have to always be circular, it can also be oval shaped which would be more in line with trying to make the helix part of the layout it self rather then just a means to move trains up and down
In short take your helix and chop it up into smaller Jr. sized more manageable helix's to get the job done without the 800lb helix in the room.
Allegheny2-6-6-6 JohnI had to add this to your posting, I was over at my friends house this afternoon for a short while (The guy with the helix in the garage and he stressed one thing I was thinking of but did not include. Access, Access, Access! As he pointed out no matter how careful and precise your track work is and we went to great pains to make the helix track "perfect" you are going to experience derailments every now and then mainly when you have guests over viewing your railroad for the first time. He said as recently as last week he had a coupler give out on a 30 car or so train while it was mid way through the helix. He said all I could do was watch on your camera in horror as the derailment unfolded and the carnage ensued. So adding any type of scenery to a helix in his words is only going to hamper your access. As he put it no matter how you dress it up a helix is merely a functional part of the railroad just like bench work or wiring, there's nothing pretty about it all t has to do is work and work very well.
I had to add this to your posting, I was over at my friends house this afternoon for a short while (The guy with the helix in the garage and he stressed one thing I was thinking of but did not include. Access, Access, Access! As he pointed out no matter how careful and precise your track work is and we went to great pains to make the helix track "perfect" you are going to experience derailments every now and then mainly when you have guests over viewing your railroad for the first time. He said as recently as last week he had a coupler give out on a 30 car or so train while it was mid way through the helix. He said all I could do was watch on your camera in horror as the derailment unfolded and the carnage ensued. So adding any type of scenery to a helix in his words is only going to hamper your access. As he put it no matter how you dress it up a helix is merely a functional part of the railroad just like bench work or wiring, there's nothing pretty about it all t has to do is work and work very well.
Yes, that's a good point. I wish I had a better solution. I'd rather not have the helix at all.
I hand maded lots of trees and put them all around the outside of the helix. I planted them on some hills that I maded out of plaster. Looks pretty good, really you dont know it is a helix till you get right beside it. It is still open in the center if I have problems that need to be fixed. Great place to rail fan from.
seasideAlthough not directly on topic; there was a recent article in Model Railroader that showed a "train elevator," that automatically lifted a section of track to the next level powered by a garage door opener. If the goal is to hide the helix, since it doesn't sound like you want it anyway, this may take up a lot less space depending on the lenght of trains you plan to run. Just a thought. John
Although not directly on topic; there was a recent article in Model Railroader that showed a "train elevator," that automatically lifted a section of track to the next level powered by a garage door opener. If the goal is to hide the helix, since it doesn't sound like you want it anyway, this may take up a lot less space depending on the lenght of trains you plan to run.
Just a thought.
Yeah, I really would rather do without it. My original plan was to show the entire climb, but then the room got renegotiated with the wife, walls got knocked-down and so forth, and the old plan won't work in the new space. So I'm having to do something different.
I don't think I have room for the elevator either. Although its at least worth a look- thanks for the idea, I'll pull out the tape-measure tonight and see.
cuyamaMisterBeasley I like the idea of stepping the helix back a bit on each loop around. Keep in mind that varying the radius changes the grade. Changing the grade constantly is likely not the most reliable approach. Stepping the track "in" on each loop tightens the radius and steepens the grade as the train climbs higher, so the worst grades will come at the worst time, when the full train is on the helix. And the last turn (the tightest) must climb the most (to cross over the track below). Building the decks and supports for loops that are constanly varying in radius also seems challenging. Doesn't seem like an optimal solution. Building for reliability is key with a helix (or any other hidden, relatively inaccessible trackage) Note that "herniating" out one loop to provide some visual interest (and a check on train progress) does not come with the same issues, which is why the approach is actually used on layouts that have been built and operated successfully. Easiest is certainly just to drape or hide the helix with flat black, being sure to allow for access. Byron
MisterBeasley I like the idea of stepping the helix back a bit on each loop around.
I like the idea of stepping the helix back a bit on each loop around.
Keep in mind that varying the radius changes the grade. Changing the grade constantly is likely not the most reliable approach. Stepping the track "in" on each loop tightens the radius and steepens the grade as the train climbs higher, so the worst grades will come at the worst time, when the full train is on the helix. And the last turn (the tightest) must climb the most (to cross over the track below). Building the decks and supports for loops that are constanly varying in radius also seems challenging.
Doesn't seem like an optimal solution. Building for reliability is key with a helix (or any other hidden, relatively inaccessible trackage)
Note that "herniating" out one loop to provide some visual interest (and a check on train progress) does not come with the same issues, which is why the approach is actually used on layouts that have been built and operated successfully.
Easiest is certainly just to drape or hide the helix with flat black, being sure to allow for access.
Byron
I wasn't planning on changing the radius, unless it ended-up being larger, as in the herniated loop. As I mentioned in my OP, I don't have much extra room from side-to-side, but I have several feet of leeway front-to-back which could easily accommodate a stepped approach, albeit at the loss of wherever the bottom loop begins toward the back (due to the stepping back of the subsequent loops into that space).
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Allegheny2-6-6-6 I don't have a helix on my home layout but have built them for two of my friends the one guy has his actually out in his garage so it's out of sight out of mind and I installed a couple of CCTV camera's that we picked up on www.tigerdirect.com just to keep an eye on things. On the other guys layout he didn't have that luxury and didn't want to disguise it as a mountain which I've seen done also. So we made a scenic screen. We got creative and used a set of old tri-fold doors he had laying around. Actually they cam off the laundry room area in the basement so he upgraded those doors later on... lol He glued photo back drops to the upper portion of the doors and we painted the bottom halves flat black. To make it look a little believable he constructed lets say the front portion of a mountain with tunnel portals and some scenery and the doors attached via magnets to the side of the mountain so if needed he could gain easy access to the trains in the helix. It turned out really neat looking but most of the time the scenic screen was stashed in another room. He only puts it up when he has new visitors to the layout.I do like Chip's quick and dirty approach with the sheet though myself.
I don't have a helix on my home layout but have built them for two of my friends the one guy has his actually out in his garage so it's out of sight out of mind and I installed a couple of CCTV camera's that we picked up on www.tigerdirect.com just to keep an eye on things. On the other guys layout he didn't have that luxury and didn't want to disguise it as a mountain which I've seen done also. So we made a scenic screen. We got creative and used a set of old tri-fold doors he had laying around. Actually they cam off the laundry room area in the basement so he upgraded those doors later on... lol He glued photo back drops to the upper portion of the doors and we painted the bottom halves flat black. To make it look a little believable he constructed lets say the front portion of a mountain with tunnel portals and some scenery and the doors attached via magnets to the side of the mountain so if needed he could gain easy access to the trains in the helix. It turned out really neat looking but most of the time the scenic screen was stashed in another room. He only puts it up when he has new visitors to the layout.
I do like Chip's quick and dirty approach with the sheet though myself.
Yes, something like that is definitely likely to be the default choice. Its simple, its easy, and what's not to love??
MisterBeasleyI like the idea of stepping the helix back a bit on each loop around. You would end up with a "wedding cake" spiral at the front and a more traditional vertically-stacked arrangement at the back.. Assuming that you're not modeling Kansas or Iowa, this would give you an opportunity to build a mountain with mostly vertical faces, but the occasional open spot where the trains would emerge from a tunnel, travel a short way along a ledge, and then go back into another tunnel. This would turn the "purely functional" helix into a dramatic scenic element.
I like the idea of stepping the helix back a bit on each loop around. You would end up with a "wedding cake" spiral at the front and a more traditional vertically-stacked arrangement at the back.. Assuming that you're not modeling Kansas or Iowa, this would give you an opportunity to build a mountain with mostly vertical faces, but the occasional open spot where the trains would emerge from a tunnel, travel a short way along a ledge, and then go back into another tunnel. This would turn the "purely functional" helix into a dramatic scenic element.
Agreed, but a little too much drama, is my fear. But then again, maybe it won't be so bad. I'll try mocking it up more-- with a cover and see if that makes it seem better.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
SpaceMouse The most simple solution would be to tack a black (or fascia-colored) cloth over it. We did it at my ex-club and it simply disappeared. At open house we took off the cover. Kids like the helix.
The most simple solution would be to tack a black (or fascia-colored) cloth over it. We did it at my ex-club and it simply disappeared. At open house we took off the cover. Kids like the helix.
Hmm, there is a measure of simplicity in that suggestion. Something like that is probably the default option if nothing better presents itself. It would be nice to not have to spoil the illusion though for the helix. Its just a big, ugly, ungainly thing that looks really out of place plopped-down out of nowhere not far from the Susquehanna river basin... Maybe if I stuck a spaceship and some aliens on it, and had the US Army attacking it, that might go over a little better....
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
I am definitely going to be having a helix. No question about it. I even know where it has to go and how much room, more or less, I have available for it and around it. The only problem is that I don't really *want* a helix, don't see any way around having a helix, and would really just like to know how the heck can I hide my helix?
Dramatics aside, the helix itself will be approx 60 inches across (diameter), and can stretch for up to a foot or two along one direction but must be about 60 inches across in the other for other layout accessibility reasons.
Not worried about depth (going down to staging), just the going up part. From lower deck at about 44 inches (IIRC) to upper deck at 58 inches. The lower deck is actually at 39 inches but I am able to climb to 44 before entering the helix.
The good part is that the helix is in the farthest corner of my layout. Obviously I'll need to make provisions for access and all that.
I have a few feet of leeway front-to-back as to where I can locate the helix and was thinking that maybe I could elongate it a bit, "revert" it some here and there, and maybe build it so each turn "steps back" so as to create a slope along its visible sides, and could then somehow stick a party hat on it and disguise it as a "mountain". Or maybe a big Pinatta.
I would rather not have the helix at all. I'd rather have a visible climb but I just can't see how to do it without eating up all the space. (I know you guys would rather see some sort of track plan so I'll see if I can draft one up later tonight and post it.)
If anybody out there has any suggestions for helix-hiding, or else has pictures of helixes (helii?) they've previously hidden (its okay, you don't have to give out location info or show any faces) that would be useful too.
Thanks,