MRL Guy If you are still lookiing for ideas, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Carolina Central. It is published in the latest version of what used to be called teh N Scale Primier I think it is called Getting Started in N Scale or something like that. It is published by Kalmbach. Also on the Atlas Forum (N Scale), do a search for "Carolina Central" it is an older thread, but goes on for over 15 pages. It is all about buildiing a door layout, and is a very good source for information.
If you are still lookiing for ideas, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Carolina Central. It is published in the latest version of what used to be called teh N Scale Primier I think it is called Getting Started in N Scale or something like that. It is published by Kalmbach.
Also on the Atlas Forum (N Scale), do a search for "Carolina Central" it is an older thread, but goes on for over 15 pages. It is all about buildiing a door layout, and is a very good source for information.
Can be seen here, in Kato's version: http://www.katousa.com/track-plans/carolina-central.jpg
In principle, it is similar to Byron Henderson's "Dallas on a door" layout. Loop. Double ended siding at back for staging or meets, Some industry tracks in from the front.
Byron's plan is, IMO, a more interesting plan than the Carolina Central. If the OP wants to do 30" x 72" and continuous run, he should probably do something similar. And maybe avoid the industry tracks the OP seem to persists in trying to add at the rear of his layout, where he cannot easily reach them to couple or uncouple cars.
Marty McGuirk also has the Pine Tree Central (alias Androscoggin Central), which is a bigger project layout (4x8 feet in N scale), with a far more interesting track plan than the Carolina Central - can be seen (in an early version) over at the railroad-line forum: http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22305
Smile,Stein
Unfortunately I've taken all of the room I'm going to get as is.
The N-Scale is actually a druther. I assumed that it would be the only scale that will fit into my very limited space.
It is not a given that I need a continuous loop. I just feel that it would attract my family more than an industrial switching type layout. I could be wrong. :)
This will be my first delve into N-Scale as well. I do like the detail of HO, I simply didn't feel I had the space for an HO layout of any merit and fun.
I wonder if you think it is possible to even consider HO in the area I have open to me. I realize it would have to ALL be industrial switching. Any ideas in HO scale?
Dan T I spent many days thinking about what I wanted
So what did your list of "musts and wants" (givens and druthers) end up looking like? I'd say that these are included:
- must be N scale - must fit into corner between door and closet in spare bedroom - must have continuous run - must have several industry tracks to switch - should have an urban look
What else have you decided that you want and need?
Is it e.g. really a given the main track plan has to be an oval on a level and rectangular table, with sidings stuck all around the oval (including at the back, where they will be hard to reach) ?
If you are going to block access to the closet anyways, why not go all out? How about a twisted dogbone on a water wing shaped layout with some height variations?
Turnouts are Peco code 55 (those brits have small homes - they make turnouts intended for small layouts). Curve radius is 13", which I am told should work okay in N scale - I don't have any experience with N scale myself - the trains are too small for my taste.
Well, I took a large step back over the past week and scrapped the narrow switching area for the layout. I built the benchwork and things are coming along. Still no "final" plan yet.
I spent many days thinking about what I wanted and using some suggestions here and elsewhere have an updated plan. This is still not perfectly laid out on cad but I was hoping to get some feedback on the following so please ignore the slight misalignments...this is more a drawing phase than a technical phase atm.
1. Upper right corner...would a switch and a straight track going into the building there be a nice addition? Another destination for freight appeals to me but I'm not sure how doable it is.
2. Do I now have TOO MUCH trackage as opposed to not enough? (My idea was to have a continuous loop train logging miles if my wife or boys felt like joining me while I worked the inner sidings and industrial deliveries.)
3. Any glaring derail points..things that don;t make sense.... etc? I worry a bit about the suggested expansion into a "yard" on the L-eextension...I have no where for my switcher to escape or run around in this area... (I built a 5-3-3 Inglenook area for when I just feel like "playing" but can use this area more realisitcally as well when I do an operating session.)
4. Visually, I think I've used my available space MUCH better. I believe haviing your feedback and a prototype area to break things down helped quite alot.
Still no 102 Track Plans....must have ordered on an odd shipping day. ;/
Thanks again to the track planning experts out there your suggestions really helped me take a step back and think...Looking forward to more suggestions.
Some interesting ideas. :)
Adding the short L-shaped extension is about all of the room and room changing I'm ging for now. I know its always tempting to add space here and there, I just have to draw the line. I built the door and foam base today and will be working on benchwork tomorrow. I also have doodled some alternatives that I think are a vast improvement over my first two CAD drawings. I'm not ready to attempt a 3rd cad yet as I'm still playing with some things.
I CAN say that the short extension along the wall has added some interesting possibilities. I'm surprised at what a small space can do to get me thinking of possibilities.
Thanks everyone, the discussions are getting interesting.
Dan
Or another option is to put folding legs under the door, so that when it's not in use you simply fold 'em up and lean the layout against the wall. Or hide it in the closet or tuck it under the bed (if you have the clearance).
For myself, I don't expect to have permanent space for a layout for 2-3 years, so that's the route I'm taking. When I'm not working on the layout, it gets folded up and set back in a corner of the garage. It only takes up 2-3 square feet of floor space when it's in storage mode.
Granted, this could be problematic if you have a high scenic profile, or lots and lots of structures. The door I'm working on now has neither. There will be only one major structure, and I'm planning to cement a permanent "foundation" for it onto the layout, so the structure itself can be removed and stored separately.
Any other ways of organizing the room so the OP would both have room for the bed and a hollow core door layout ?
------------------
I see..That large bed does make it rough..
I see one way..Get a smaller bed or go with the 30" x 72" door...
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIEUlrich,From my experience learn the from the great school of lessons learned the hard way(which I was the valedictorian of several lessons) a 30" x 80" or 36" x 80" door is the better choice..These sizes allow room for larger curves.
No doubt.
But if you look again at the room plan the OP posted, how do you propose putting a 36" x 80" door into the room while still having room for that big bed in there?
Mmmm - I suppose one option might be to take off the doors of the closet and letting the layout extend 8" to 10" into the closet, to make it a little bit longer and make it 32 x 80".
Dan, I feel your pain. You want to get moving, but it's hard to commit to a plan.
But I think Stein hit it on the head earlier; this is a temporary layout. So don't let "perfect" be the enemy of "good enough" when it comes to making a decision and moving forward. Maybe you get a layout going and you discover some changes you'd like to make. Easy enough using the hollow core door approach. If you're using caulk to hold your track and roadbed down, it's easy enough to pry 'em up and re-lay 'em (if you proceed with care). Or maybe everything turns out great, and you can incorporate this starter layout into a larger operation after you make the move to a different home.
I was facing the same problem, designing and designing without actually building anything. Paralysis by analysis. So I finally just plunged in, and couldn't be happier with the results.
Now, don't get me wrong. You have to have a certain level of comfort with what you're building, and confidence that the track plan will allow you to do what you want to do. But after 35+ plus years of studying 'em, I don't think there's anything such as a "perfect" track plan. There are plans that will work for you, and plans that won't.
And I'll second two other bits of advice: Get the Armstrong book; it and Bruce Chubb's "How to Operate Your Model Railroad" are indispensable. And go for the full-sze hollow core door, 6-foot-8 instead of 6 feet. (You'll appreciate the stability of a door.) And 32" width is probably ideal for N.
Good luck!
Sir Madog Well, Stein, I guess you are right there! But a 2´by 6´ footprint is not big enough to have all what the OP wants. The trick is to adapt one´s druthers to the givens and when space is at a premium, you have to make that dreadful either/or decision. If the OP has some space left, which he may occupy even only temporarily, he can add two cassettes for staging to the left of the layout - just as MR did in their project.
Well, Stein, I guess you are right there!
But a 2´by 6´ footprint is not big enough to have all what the OP wants. The trick is to adapt one´s druthers to the givens and when space is at a premium, you have to make that dreadful either/or decision. If the OP has some space left, which he may occupy even only temporarily, he can add two cassettes for staging to the left of the layout - just as MR did in their project.
Ulrich,From my experience learn the from the great school of lessons learned the hard way(which I was the valedictorian of several lessons) a 30" x 80" or 36" x 80" door is the better choice..These sizes allow room for larger curves.
Yes! Its true! You want to use the largest possible size curve you can in N...Another valedictorian thing learned years ago.
I do like the layout you designed.
Regarding constructive critique of the track plan(s) thus far posted by Dan T, the one thing that jumps out at me and that is showing up as a consistent "feature" is that the industrial sidings tend to be way too short. It looks as if some of them are planned as being just a 5-inch straight track tacked onto the end of a turnout, but that is really only enough space for a single 40-foot boxcar to be spotted, clear of the other route of the switch. A 50-footer might not even fit!
Longer spur tracks have a tendency to fill in all that interior space in the loop, as can be seen from the other track plan examples that have been offered. And if one is really turned on by switching maneuvers, longer spurs have to potential to force you to consider not just which car goes to which building, but also what order they are spotted in. Perhaps the boxcar full of widgets must be spotted at door #2 but when it gets pulled and the next car goes in, it must be backed up to door #1... and maybe there's the necessary equipment for unloading of tank cars all the way at the end of the track.
Lengthening the spurs can also help to spread the industries out a bit, which means they can each be that much bigger and thus look like they really need rail service.
I agree with you cuyama. That's why I was just borrowing a concept from another thread. The industry there looked fun to operate which is why I was looking at it.
Hopefully the 102 track plans will come this week. In the meantime...
After intense begging...errr..negotiations... my wife let me claim a bit more real estate giving me an L shape around the wall. I'll be working on the benchwork this weekend...that way she can't change her mind ya know. :)
This may open up a few possibilities for me. I'll be playing with some sketches this weekend. I may be able to fold the layout a bit...get an intense and narrow shelf industry switching AND open up some land for the roundy rounds and other industries on the door area.
Yet again, thanks you two. After seeing websites and forum discussions I respect your opinions and abilities. I'll update when I come up with something I like
Dan T Okay. Points taken. I think I'll go BACK to 101 Track Plans for inspiration. I want to get this right...
Okay. Points taken. I think I'll go BACK to 101 Track Plans for inspiration. I want to get this right...
You are saying this is a temporary layout. That means you don't have to be too concerned about getting it right. If you get it wrong, you will have learned something for your next layout about what not to do.
As for a 30" x 72" roundy-rounder in N scale pushed into a corner.
Why not just do something in the style of that track plan Byron suggested? :
Loop.
No attempts to cram in tracks that will need switching at the extreme rear end of the layout, just a double ended siding (or two, if you have room for two sets of turnouts and still get worthwhile siding lengths in 72" of length) for staging a second train.
Industries along front (pick your own industries, location and era). Using a crossing to get one set of tracks into the left interior and one set of tracks into the right interior (not much point in putting in a track plan that only uses a narrow strip of the space you have available).
Make sure you have a double ended siding for runaround moves when switching industries.
Allows you to alternate between running two or three short trains.
cuyamaThe plans are 50+ years old and don't reflect the last few decades' worth of ideas on staging, operations, etc.
The plans are 50+ years old and don't reflect the last few decades' worth of ideas on staging, operations, etc.
This is why I recommended the much more up-to-date 102 Realistic Track Plans which you have placed on order -- instead of referring to 101 Track Plans.
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
Dan T I think I'll go BACK to 101 Track Plans for inspiration. I want to get this right...
I think I'll go BACK to 101 Track Plans for inspiration. I want to get this right...
If getting it right for you means an engaging operating layout in the given space, that might not be the best resource. The plans are 50+ years old and don't reflect the last few decades' worth of ideas on staging, operations, etc.
If getting it right for you means a round-and-round layout on which to watch one or two trains run orbit after orbit (which is not necessarily a bad thing, just different than what you seemed to want), then there might be something in 101 Track Plans for you.
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cuyamaThe original layout from the thread on the other forum that you referenced is not the best choice for a shelf layout, IMHO, and certainly seems sub-optimal for a larger layout, again in my view.
Well, it would be hard to disagree about Shortline Jack's "Ness Street Yard" track plan probably being a suboptimal use of space for a loop design.
Not so sure it is such a poor design for a small shelf switching layout for it's original purpose though. Urban single car switching where all necessary tracks for switching fits in 6.5 feet of length and less than 10" of depth in H0 scale is a pretty tough requirement.
But in N scale and for a loop, not a great design.
Ooops - big thunderstorm moving in - I had forgotten how impressive those small midwestern thunder storms are. Better turn off the computer and go back to bed, trying to adjust to the time zone change.
Grin, Stein, very much jet lagged right now
I actually remember reading a book or two by him in my youth and know how well regarded he still is. Does anyone know if the online articles would have information comparable to the guide recommended? Thanks in advance.
Dan TI'm reaching the point now though where I am WILLING to spend the money on these resources but also knowing I want to start putting money toward the actual layout.
The Armstrong book is money well spent and you'll get a lot more from it than just track planning tips. The knowledge contained therein has long legs. If you buy just one book, this would be it, IMHO.
But I know where you're at, having a very limited budget myself. Don't forget about your local public library - mine happens to have a copy of the Armstrong book and I've checked it out several times. If they don't have it, inquire about any inter-library loan arrangements they may have.
Thank you Cuyama. I've actually read every article on your website and have spent a lot of time there as well. Though I am not committed to designing my own layout, it seems a necessity to do so given the odd size of my layout.
I actually ordered the 102 realistic track plansbook and am awaiting its arrival. I may pick up the ones you suggested as well. I'm reaching the point now though where I am WILLING to spend the money on these resources but also knowing I want to start putting money toward the actual layout. :)
I believe at this point I will go ahead and build the benchwork while I wait, since I am pretty much committed to the size and location of the plan.
I'll further study your layout suggestion. I can tell you visually its very appealing to me and uses the real estate well. I'm thinking of the operations end though and want to make sure I can have fun with the switching and running trains.
Thanks for your input. I'll continue to watch your site...it truly was the basis that got this layout started.
The original layout from the thread on the other forum that you referenced is not the best choice for a shelf layout, IMHO, and certainly seems sub-optimal for a larger layout, again in my view.
The tracks you have marked as "Inbound/Outbound" seem very short for staging, if that's the intent, and the "Intermodal" tracks are likewise very short.
With a bit of planning, it’s easy to make better use of the center of a rectangular space, as seen in this example from my "Dallas on a Door" article in Model Railroad Planning 2010 magazine.
While this has a couple of elements (the crossing, for example) that were compromises to suggest the real-life locale, perhaps there are some general ideas from which you could draw inspiration. It is 80" long, but the same principles would apply in a slightly shorter space.
If your layout is going to be set against a wall, using that side for staging, as in the example above, can be very useful.
In my opinion, moving to track planning CAD too soon stunts layout design creativity by focusing on precision before developing a concept and building a better understanding of real-life and good model design practices. In my opinion, if you are committed to designing a layout a better way to begin is to spend some time with a resource such as John Armstrong's Track Planning for Realistic Operation rather than on CAD iterations.
But almost no one ever heeds that suggestion, of course.
Best of luck.
I actually did consider a complete rearrangement and look at a 1' to 1'6" along the wall layout over two sections. Since we anticipate being in a different home in a year or so my wife and I decided not to do this. Thats where the 32" by 6 foot plan came about. I like the vision of the other extensions and it would certainly be a good basis for the extension when I get a dedicated room in our next home.
I suppose what I am wanting to know most at this point is what improvements could be made to my current plans, keeping in mind that I will be learning as I go. I don't want an incredibly difficult layout to build but want one that will provide enjoyment and learning opportunities for me. Any specific suggestions to make on my current build? Any obvious design mistakes inviting a derailment etc that you experienced model railroad experts can see?
Again, thank you everyone for the suggestions and links.
I'll await your response. Dan
Dan T Okay. As requested, here is the room. It is a spare bedroom that can be rearranged to a certain extent. As you can see I am partially blocking the closet. It isn't used too much, so my wife would live with my blocking it if needed. It would be nice for storage and other reasons not to block.The layout is to be built over a long dresser that would need to be moved elsewhere. It measures 5' 6" long by 24" deep.
Okay. As requested, here is the room. It is a spare bedroom that can be rearranged to a certain extent. As you can see I am partially blocking the closet. It isn't used too much, so my wife would live with my blocking it if needed. It would be nice for storage and other reasons not to block.
The layout is to be built over a long dresser that would need to be moved elsewhere. It measures 5' 6" long by 24" deep.
Looks like a room where it in principle is possible to make a long and narrow switching layout around three walls. On shelves above the dressers. Possibly with a continuous run liftout across the door.
Conceptually something like this:
And your wife might have a few things to say about "taking over the whole room" for a layout vs "having a small table in a corner".
And she would have a point. Long and narrow shelves fairly high up on the wall (say 50+ inches off the floor) often are better room mates than low rectangular tables when the goal is to maximize usable space for other purposes in the room, since not too deep shelves can run over things - dressers, beds or whatever. The space below and above the shelf will normally be available for other things.
But visually such layouts of course dominate the room in a way a small table tucked into a corner does not.
So it is not a given that something like this will a sensible plan for your circumstances. It is just an illustration of how a fairly big layout might be fitted into a space bedroom, without removing the guest bed.
Anyways - if your main interest is switching, I would at least have considered doing your urban switching on a 7 foot or so long and narrow shelf layout on the wall to the left of the the closet.
Then you can always try to sell your wife on the idea that you could build a removable section crossing over the door to the closet to reach a small loop layout in the corner you started out with - where you can do a crowd pleasing layout running in loops with the normal accessories kids like - the train crossing a bridge, river, running through a forest, ducking through a tunnel etc.
Just a few stray ideas - not a given that any of them will work for you in your circumstances. Well, time for me to get going over here.
Smile, Stein
Thanks for looking.
edit: Oh and the layout is to be built over a long dresser that would need to be moved elsewhere. It measures 5' 6" long by 24" deep.
Okay...this is iteration 2. Done the correct size this time. Stein I will attach a quick room sketch for you in this message down the road. The layout pretty much MUST go in this location but it will show you why the extra L-shape extension is problematic. Any other arrangements just don't seem to open up space without sacrificing even more room for guests etc.
Dan TLet me clarify some things for steinjr, cowman, others. It is in a spare room along a wall and corner. Basically accessible from the main yard side and the staging yard side. The 32" is something I cannot fudge...I really tried for the 3 ft in there but it just isn't a possibility for now.
Do you think you could draw a quick sketch of the entire spare room and show what else in in there and what else you need access to?
Surprisingly often, it turns out that what someone thinks is the only way of fitting a layout into a room is just one of several possible options.
Dan TOh and stein...for the staging area I'm not looking for engine spotting etc. I'm looking more for an inbound and outbound section that suggests cars arriving and leaving for other parts of the world. I felt it would add some value to the plan.
Okay - so you are not actually looking for staging.
In the context of model railoading, the word "staging" is usually used to mean a place where you can hold an entire train, before the whole train arrives during your running session, or after it departs from your area during your running session.
What you are describing is just a set-out track or an interchange track or a siding - a place where you can do block swaps between trains or interchanges between railroads. One train leaves cars there, another will be along later to pick it up. Can be done even for very small switching layouts. No problem.
Oh and stein...for the staging area I'm not looking for engine spotting etc. I'm looking more for an inbound and outbound section that suggests cars arriving and leaving for other parts of the world. I felt it would add some value to the plan.
I should also let you know that I anticipate adding this layout to a much larger one when we purchase a home over the next year or two.