I have been cursing my Atlas Mark III switches for some time now. Because my DCC-equipped locos keep stalling over them in apparently random spots-- though it always seems to involve the frog somehow. And despite my efforts to fix the situation seems to be getting worse...
But I have finally figured out the problem, and the solution...
Turns out I was probably my own worst enemy.
Initially most (perhaps all, I don't remember) of my locos, of varying wheelbase and configuration, ran just fine through the turnouts-- well, reasonably fine anyway. But I was having some derailment issues with some of the turnouts and attempting to solve that problem by filing the ends of the rails a little to make them a little smoother.
The frogs are metal and painted black. Which means they're normally insulated. When I filed the turnouts I probably hit the frogs a little with the file which rubbed the paint off and set up a situation where the wheels could short out, and I didn't realize it.
It took me a while of slowly running locos back and forth across the turnout to finally figure it out-- but I did. The turnouts that cause the locos to stall and/or short out, are the ones that have scratches in the paint on the frogs and bare metal shining through.
On a hunch I took some of my wife's nail polish and re-painted the frog... pink... but we'll talk about that later...
And it worked. No more problems, no more stalling or shorting, and all of my locos can slide through the switch just fine-- w/o electrical problems anyway.
So I just wanted to post this in case anybody else is out there having problems with Atlas code 100 Mark III turnouts, or something similar, and is having problems with locos stalling or shorting on the turnout.
They work fine initially, but over time start accumulating problems-- because the paint is getting scratched off the frogs for whatever reason.
Hope this helps!
John
My J-class likes to stall on one switch just like you describe -- I'll look at the frog when I get home. thanks for the tip!
SwayinMy J-class likes to stall on one switch just like you describe -- I'll look at the frog when I get home. thanks for the tip!
My SD's hate them. Which is curious since they used to run over them just fine before.
One other issue I've noticed about the Atlas turnouts-- again using my Mark III's, don't know if its a problem with any other revision-- is that they need to be secured flat to the roadbed surface (or table / whatever). Especially in the middle. If you just use the holes provided to nail or pin them down, they may still be able to rise up a little in the middle-- which, as a side-thought, may be how some of them got scratched a little in the first place. I fixed (pinned) them down more securely in the middle and that problem went away.
Eventually I'm gonna toss 'em all out and make my own. But for now I'm putting up with them, but I don't like them at all.
John,
Can you provide a little more information. Are these Atlas #4 or #6 turnouts, and do you have the metal frog 'powered'? The metal frog should be 'insulated' on an Atlas Customline turnout. I can see the possibility of some small metal filings bridging the gap and making the frog 'hot' to one route all the time. The reason I ask is because I have filed off all of the paint/anodizing from my frogs with a large fine cut mill file. They are level and shine. I do not power the frogs. I have had no problems running P2K/BLI/Atlas diesels or steam through those switches.
The reason I 'file' the frogs is to make sure they are 'flat' and in tram with the outside rails. Sometimes the manufacturing process will pull a turnout that is still warm from the mold and the frog casting is a little high. A few swipes with a mill file take care of the problem. Also, if the frog is a little high, an engine may ride up and lose conductivity(stall)
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
jrbernierJohn, Can you provide a little more information. Are these Atlas #4 or #6 turnouts, and do you have the metal frog 'powered'? The metal frog should be 'insulated' on an Atlas Customline turnout. I can see the possibility of some small metal filings bridging the gap and making the frog 'hot' to one route all the time. The reason I ask is because I have filed off all of the paint/anodizing from my frogs with a large fine cut mill file. They are level and shine. I do not power the frogs. I have had no problems running P2K/BLI/Atlas diesels or steam through those switches. The reason I 'file' the frogs is to make sure they are 'flat' and in tram with the outside rails. Sometimes the manufacturing process will pull a turnout that is still warm from the mold and the frog casting is a little high. A few swipes with a mill file take care of the problem. Also, if the frog is a little high, an engine may ride up and lose conductivity(stall) Jim
These are #6 customline. The frog is supposed to be insulated-- covered in black paint or something from the factory.
I thought all the same stuff about the frog being too high, etc. and did not hesitate to file them. Which, unbeknownst to me was making it worse. Of course they probably did need to be filed-- just repainted (insulated) afterwards.
The frog is insulated(the black plastic insulators fore and aft of the frog casting). What I am suspecting is that the frog is now 'hot' to one of the rails all the time. If your engine takes the opposite path, there may be some kind of short. As I mentioned, my frogs have all of the anodized paint removed and I do not see the same problem. If you have a multimeter, check for continuity between the rails leading to the frog(both ends) and the from - there should not be an electrical connection. Painting the frog will resolve the problem(for now), bu the paint will wear off and the problem may show up again.
jrbernierThe frog is insulated(the black plastic insulators fore and aft of the frog casting). What I am suspecting is that the frog is now 'hot' to one of the rails all the time. If your engine takes the opposite path, there may be some kind of short. As I mentioned, my frogs have all of the anodized paint removed and I do not see the same problem. If you have a multimeter, check for continuity between the rails leading to the frog(both ends) and the from - there should not be an electrical connection. Painting the frog will resolve the problem(for now), bu the paint will wear off and the problem may show up again. Jim
I did check it with the multimeter and got proper operation-- and my troubles are primarily in traversing the normal route, not the diverging route.
jrbernier John, Can you provide a little more information. Are these Atlas #4 or #6 turnouts, and do you have the metal frog 'powered'? The metal frog should be 'insulated' on an Atlas Customline turnout. I can see the possibility of some small metal filings bridging the gap and making the frog 'hot' to one route all the time. The reason I ask is because I have filed off all of the paint/anodizing from my frogs with a large fine cut mill file. They are level and shine. I do not power the frogs. I have had no problems running P2K/BLI/Atlas diesels or steam through those switches. The reason I 'file' the frogs is to make sure they are 'flat' and in tram with the outside rails. Sometimes the manufacturing process will pull a turnout that is still warm from the mold and the frog casting is a little high. A few swipes with a mill file take care of the problem. Also, if the frog is a little high, an engine may ride up and lose conductivity(stall) Jim
Jim, I have a whole bunch of those Atlas turnouts, and I have to agree with you on two points. One, scratches in the paint on the frog should not not cause shorts because the plastic insulators provide the protection, not the paint. Two, the frog casting is always too high in my opinion.
Regarding the height of the frog, I have filed some down which were causing derailment problems, while I have left others alone, but it is noticeable when engines and cars pass over these frogs.
Regarding John's shorting problem, I am also a little skeptical of the cause and the solution. I am not doubting what John reports, but merely scratching the frogs and removing some paint should not cause a shorting problem. I would like to hear from others on this problem.
Rich
Alton Junction
Hi!
In building my HO layout - my first attempt at DCC - I used Atlas code 100 # 8, #6, and #4 turnouts. The test locos have been BLI Paragon 2-10-2, 2-10-4, SW7, RSD15, and P2K E7s. The #8s are used exclusively on the mains, and this was my first time using them (they just came out about a year ago).
Well, of course the frogs are quite long, and a couple of the above locos would stop on them at slow speeds. Sooo, I bit the bullet and got some Atlas #200 relays, wired them in, and the problems went away.
By the way, I have 4 crossovers using two #8s each. The crossovers are wired together so as one turnout control will turn both at the same time. And, I was able to wire one relay to activate both frogs. This is possible because the Atlas relays has two sets of connections. By the way, I used # 20 hook up wires for these, and they work just fine. I suspect a smaller wire might not work as well, but as I haven't tried it, I don't know for certain.
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
John hi
I find two situation that have caused me problems. One is the very narrow gap where rails with opposite power come together in a "V" sometimes the gap is so narrow that the face of the wheel can span the gap. I file the gap wider. Two I feel that the movable rail can lose contact at it's pivot, and at the other end not be firmly against the other rail. I lube the pivot with a conductive lube and make sure the blade throws firmly.It works for me.
Good luck
Lee
Hi again!
Yankee Flyer brought up a problem I also experienced with older Atlas turnouts - that being the very close proximaty of each sid of the rails that form the "V". This allows some wheels to touch both rails, thus shorting out.
In starting my layout last year, I found I had 4 generations of Atlas turnouts. While they all were OK for DC operation, those with the above situation were not.
By the way, another generation of the older turnouts had a tendency for the pivoting rails to loosen, and allow the loco to spread them and drop a wheel. This only happened on a couple of turnouts but was a bear to determine the cause.
Putting the above aside, Atlas makes a terrific turnout - an excellent value, and those of mine that had problems were 13-20 years old and saw lots of service.
Interesting as I have had problems with Walthers/Shinohara turnouts doing the same thing but never an Atlas. I solved my problems by powering the frogs with the Hex Frog Juicer from Tam Valley Depot It's interesting that such a small thing could cause such a big problem. I guess it just supports the idea that most of the time it's something very simple, we all tend to think things are way more complex when problems arise and overlook the obvious. Nice piece of trouble shooting, now go paint that frog black, brown or any color other then pink.