Several beginner questions for starting major layout

[88gta350]

In a few months time (hopefully less) I will have aquired the house I will be building my MRR in. It will be in half of a two-car garage and will be approximately 11x22. Because of this I'm trying to acclerate some of my research when it comes to constructing the layout.

This will be my first real layout of any significant size, and I've never really gotten into wiring and controlling a layout of any real size. (Had a few 4x8's as a kid, and built a 2x4 N scale that was just an oval). This layout will be HO.

I'm good on the benchwork and scenery, but wiring and control has always been my weak point in MRR. They've just always confused me. For this reason I'm keeping the trackwork simple: mostly just a continuous loop with a yard and some industrial spurs for switching interest, nothing complex. I'd like to go DCC. You can go to my site at the bottom of the page to get a feel for what I'm modeling, I've put it's background there. Anyway, as for my questions:

1. Given the size of my layout and it's relatively simple design, what would I need in the way of powerpacks, controllers, etc to control 3-4 trains at a time on this layout? I'm a bit confused on exactly what hardware I'll need to power/control trains, power lights, accessories, etc..

2. What DCC system would be best for the above?

3. What track is best. I'm more concerned with reliability than I am looking prototypical, but I don't want anything that looks rediculous either. I was thinking code 83, but what manufactureer is best? And for turnouts?

4. Lighting the layout. What is the best method? Incandescent or flourescent? Or a mix of both?

5. What are some good books or websites that address these issues. I'd like soemthing that addresses basic wiring so I can get a feel for it, as well as something that will help with a layout of this size and the use of DCC.

This, obviously, will be a multi-year project. Something I will just work on as I learn and have free time, so I'm in no rush. I'm willing to learn and do my research first but right now even some of the most basic wiring confuses me. It's never been my strong suit. Give me a car with an engine problem and I can have you on the road in no time. Give me a wiring diagram and I'll pull my hair out.

A lot has changed since the time I was a kid building simple 4x8 ovals with a single DC power pack, so any help you guys can give me will be much appreciated.

Thanks!

[Anonymous]

You will need only one DCC system to control 3-4 trains, but if you want to do more, you'll need more power. I am starting out with a Digitrax Zephyr for a 4x8 plus a few 2x4 modules, running 2-3 trains. Ideally, you would have one control per loco (or MU). Most of Digitrax handheld throttles have two knob for control of two engines, but of course if you are quick with the buttons you can runn all your locos from one throttle. I would suggest that you look up Tony's Train Exchange on the web, and also maybe look for the Big Book of DCC at your local train shop.

The manufacturer of track is less important than proper and careful installation. I have seen fantastic layouts with Atlas and Micro Engineering (track and turnouts). Our local modular club uses Atlas track and Peco turnouts - very reliable.

Lighting with fluorescents gives a bit of a "cast", but so does incandescent (just a different colour of cast). Incandescents and especially halogen are great for bright lighting, but generate a lot of heat. They are also more expensive to run.

Wiring with DCC is much simpler than with blocked DC. Check those references. Another place to look is use the search function on this or any other forum. Most of your questions have probably been covered already. Of course, you may end up with more information than you even care to read! [;)]

Any plans to close off your side of the garage to protect the layout from the dirt and dust?

Good luck!

Andrew

PS - You did not supply a link to your site that I could find...

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by masonjar



Any plans to close off your side of the garage to protect the layout from the dirt and dust?

Andrew

I think that Andrew has brought up a very good point. I've found that it's important to put a layout in a place that you can control things like humidity, dust, etc.

Lack of humidity control can be partilly offset by sealing (priming) any wood benchwork to limit swelling. Dust can be a big issue with keeping smooth DCC operation (and not having to clean your track often), as well as collecting on scenery over the long term. Insect control is also a good thing... [:O]

[88gta350]

Link to my site is in my signature at the very bottom of the post. As for sealing off the area... right now it is just your typical garage with an attached workshop. I plan on insulating and drywalling it, and it will be heated with some type of pellet stove or kereosene heater (not constantly, only when working there) and will have 1 or 2 window air conditioners (again, only when working in the area). I plan on installing a drop ceiling and my layout will be at such a height (about eye level) that once you add the backdrop on, the area will be all but enlcosed. I was thinking about trying to install some type of ventilation fan to suck dust out of that part of the garage, but I probably won't end up bothering with that.

I thank you for the help so far!

[Anonymous]

Dave,

Sorry, I did not have the "view signatures" enabled.

Nice web site, and great history of the IVRR. Sounds plausible - in fact it is somewhat like the CPR in western Canada. They built hotels and resorts to generate revenue for the incredibly expensive rail line they had just (though mostly at taxpayers' expense) built through the Rockies.

I hope the comments about DCC are helpful. Don't let the percieved wiring "restrictions" dictate your design. With DCC, all the track is on all the time - the only thing you need to worry about is enough power for your locos (if you run too many, you may need to divide into power districts - each with their own supply) and avoiding shorts (like return loops - but there are DCC compatible electronic modules that handle this for you - not switches to throw).

Andrew

[Anonymous]

my suggestion is start small. Not in making a smaller model but in only doing so much at one time. Either decide to do one thing at a time ie. start with benchwork then move to track, then scenery. Or decide to focus on one portion of the layout then move on, Like starting on a 2x8 section getting that fully completed then move on to another section.
Don't try to start to many projects at once or else you'll end up getting frustated because you have to many projects going at once and it will seem like notthing is getting done. Possibly discouraging you from finishing it. Either way you will be able to see progress as you go.
Andy

[StillGrande]

I do recommend picking up one or two books on DCC. Don't be afraid of the Digitrax book. Most of it is very generic in its descriptions of how DCC works and how to use it. It also has examples of how to install DCC in different types of layouts, and how to determine how much equipment you will really need to make the trains go.

Also, check the NMRA special interest groups on DCC and layout design. There is a lot of good information there.

I am in a similar situation as you. We purchased a home with a detached garage (could put six cars in there if you really wanted to!). Have been prepping the garage (drywall, insullation, sealing the place, ceiling, etc.) I have been designing layouts for it since we moved in. I am starting to settle on a design (3rd Planit) as I see the same elements I like starting to be repeated.

Good luck and have fun!

[orsonroy]

QUOTE:
1. Given the size of my layout and it's relatively simple design, what would I need in the way of powerpacks, controllers, etc to control 3-4 trains at a time on this layout? I'm a bit confused on exactly what hardware I'll need to power/control trains, power lights, accessories, etc.

For simplicity's sake, I'd definitely plan the layout for DCC operations. Wiring a multicab DC layout is a PITA, and the costs are virtually a wash for a layout this size. Run the trains using DCC, and run all accessories off a seperate AC transformer.

QUOTE:
2. What DCC system would be best for the above?

You're basically going to have to go with one of the midsized systems by Lenz, Digitrax, NCE, etc. You could use the Atlas Master system, but you're going to be at the top end of it's operating potential. I've decided on Digitrax, but that was mostly because of the fact that most operators in my area use Digitrax. If you have the opportunity, operate on several layouts that each run different DCC systems, to get a feel for each, before you make a final decision on which specific system to buy.

QUOTE:
3. What track is best. I'm more concerned with reliability than I am looking prototypical, but I don't want anything that looks rediculous either. I was thinking code 83, but what manufactureer is best? And for turnouts?

This is sort of like asking which is best, Ford or Chevy pickups? Mostly, it's a matter of taste and skill levels. I prefer Peco switches, so went with their code 75 range. Unfortunately, their track selection has a few holes in it., so I've had to use Micro Engineering and Atlas crossings. Code 100 is actually your best bet in terms of reliability and track elements, but code 83 is a close second. Micro Engineering has the best looking track available, but it's also the most delicate. Peco insulfrog switches are the most "DCC friendly" out of the box, but are hard to get and more expensive than either Atlas or Walthers/Shinohara.

QUOTE:
4. Lighting the layout. What is the best method? Incandescent or flourescent? Or a mix of both?

Flourescents have the advantage of taking less power to operate, and emit less heat. Their downsides include greater initial expense for quality, realistic lighting, heavier fixtures that make mounting "interesting", and the fact that flourescents give many people migranes. Incandescent lighting is simpler to install, cheaper, and allows for more realistic lighting and simple dimming, but run hot and suck up a lot of juice. Either can and do work to light a layout. It's mostly up to your budget and house wiring to dictate which you want to use.

QUOTE:
5. What are some good books or websites that address these issues. I'd like soemthing that addresses basic wiring so I can get a feel for it, as well as something that will help with a layout of this size and the use of DCC.

Wiring for DCC is probably the best DCC website online. Once you settle on a system, they've all got YahooGroup support sites that are very helpful. As for layout design and construction, Kalmbach has several good beginner's books, the Layout Design SIG has a very active YahooGroup, and forums like this can be very helpful!


Hope this helps!

[88gta350]

QUOTE: Originally posted by george745

my suggestion is start small. Not in making a smaller model but in only doing so much at one time. Either decide to do one thing at a time ie. start with benchwork then move to track, then scenery. Or decide to focus on one portion of the layout then move on, Like starting on a 2x8 section getting that fully completed then move on to another section.
Don't try to start to many projects at once or else you'll end up getting frustated because you have to many projects going at once and it will seem like notthing is getting done. Possibly discouraging you from finishing it. Either way you will be able to see progress as you go.
Andy

We all know what can happen to the best laid plans.... but I do have a plan. I tgoes something like this. Upon moving in and getting settled, the garage will get prepped. This includes removing shelves and hardware in the way, insulating, drywalling, possibly carpeting that side, installing the ceiling (still not 100% sure I'll install a drop ceiling, but I'd like too). I'd also install the lighting at this point. The drywall would likely become my backdrop on two sides, I'd install backdrop on the other two sides once the benchwork was complete on those sides.

After that portion is complete, I'd start on the benchwork. I'm fortunate here because I have a workshop attached to the garage that's big enough for cutting and building benchwork, so I can minimize dust in the train room.

Once the benchwork is complete, I'd lay all the track, wiring as I went. Once it was installed I'd test it until I was sure it was reliable and at the point I wanted it.

Then I'd begin constructing the scenery, placing buildings, all the fun stuff. This way I will be able to run trains even without scenery, and I will be completing one project before moving to another. It'll be hard to wait on the scenery, as that's my favorite part. More so than even running the trains, I like building/placing the scenery. But I think this is my best path to a finished railroad.

My only problem is I usually falter when it comes time to wire. Most layouts I start tend to lose my interest when it comes time to try to wire them up. I hate doing it, so I tend to lose interest. However, I probably hate it because I don't understand it. If I knew more about it, I might enjoy it more.

I appreciate all the help you guys are giving me!

[Anonymous]

I would not make your track plan "simplistic" because you are afraid of electronics. You can't be any more "electronically challenged" than I am - trust me! What I did was go with a "sophisticated" track plan with the realization that when I am hooking up electronic goodies I know I am going to have some very insecure moments, and have trouble understanding what I need to do.

But I decided not to let that stop me; here's why. I shared an apartment with a friend of mine, he was afraid of cooking. Now to appreciate my friend - he never studied math, but received many scholarships because of his high IQ demonstrated in his mathematical abilities. He has a funny name - Bork. So I said to Bork: " Look if a 16 year old young girl can learn how to cook, you can. So lets cheat and use a cook book." Of course he eventually learned how to cook.

And I take that same recourse with electronics - if a 14 year old kid can figure out electronic stuff so can I. Now don't think I don't have my defeats. Today I went into an electronics store and asked the guy how I would daisy chain some of the connections together to go to my PM42 (Digitrax circuit breaker) and he gave me an explanation and even showed me an easier way to do it. I understood the word "the" in his conversation, after that my brain ceased to function. But I know as I struggle with these issues eventually a light bulb will go off, and I will again make progress.

[88gta350]

Rick, I can see your point about the simplistic track plan, and I'll take it into consideration. However, the line I'm modeling lends itself to a simplistic track plan. I'll have one moderate sized city (Lewistown) where my line technically interchanges with NS (not sure if I'll have room to model the interchange or not). In this same city will be a small yard and a large steel industry that will account for the rail traffic. Coming from that city the line is a single track main line that runs through a couple small towns. I'll have a few passing sidings and stations, as well as some industrial spurs. One of the small towns I consider to be my line's "hometown" which will contain a small engine servicing facility and probably a team track. This is about as complex as my track plan gets. It's not a simple oval, but it's not nearly as complex as many. It has a few sidings, a yard, a servicing facility and several industrial spurs, that's about it.

I'm trying to model the valley I grew up in. As such, I don't want the trains to crowd out everything else. I try to look at my model as a model of the valley that happens to have a train running through it. The trains will not dominate the scenery. This is what is steering me towards a simple track plan.

[cacole]

On a safety note, I would NOT use a kerosene heater, even if it is vented to the outside because they are notorious for giving off deadly fumes -- consider a propane heater.

[Anonymous]

Can you draw up your plan on paper and scan it in so you can show us. If you don't have a place to store pics on the net, then take out an account at railimages - its free - www.trainboard.com

It sounds like you don't have a "simplistic" plan. If you want I mod a forum at trainboard - the layout design forum. If you put your plan there and ask for critique, a number of guys will chime in to give you a hand.

[88gta350]

I'm still working on the plan, not sure what all I want to incorporate, but I'll keep that in mind for the future. I really need some type of design software because doing it on paper I'm not sure if things fit like I think they will or the way I draw them.

[jfugate]

Dave:

My least favorite part of the hobby is wiring, but DCC can't be beat for making that part about as simple as it gets. I have some information on my web site about my layout design, construction, and operation. I use EasyDCC wireless and like it a lot.



See the link in my signature for more.

[88gta350]

I just sketched out a track plan that I think will be very close to my final plan. I have to finalize some stuff and make sure it'll all fit as I hope it does, and is to scale. My problem now? It's not nearly as simple as I thought. It doesn't rival the best of those featured in MR, but here are a few stats as I've drawn it up so far. (This is on an 11x22 layout) 4 towns, 28 switches, serving 4 major industries (lumber yard, milk processing, farm machinery manufacturing, and a steel mill), 6 grade crossings, a team track and an engine servicing facility, 3 passenger stations, and approximately 2 linear feet of street running.

[Anonymous]

Here is what I did with my layout, maybe you can take some inspiration. First I spent a lot of time coming up with major alternate ways to use the space I had to get the empire I wanted. To do this, I only played with benchwork design and a "simple" mainline for quite a while... at least a year actually.

Once I had that settled, I built the benchwork and I had a rough idea of what I wanted, but really only the mainline and where what might go, but I had no plan of track anywhere. Then I started in one area and looked at other layouts to inspire me in that one area only. Once I had something, I laid the track for that area - this gave me more experience of what would fit where. I had to give up some things because my dreams where larger than my layout. Once I had the first area done, I examined the second area, became inspired, laid track for that and moved on.

In fact, my track plan won't be done until the layout track is almost all in. You don't need to have an entire layout planned, just lay some track to get the feel of it and see how much can be fit into an area - this experience will be invaluable as you go along.