Hi Gerry,
the first issues are scale (N, HO or O) and the kind of railroad you envision.
Some thoughts:
Modern freight and all passengertrains require a 30+ radius in HO and #6 switches (a 18"radius in N) due to the 90 foot prototypical length of the cars and coaches.
In the 50's most freightcars were 50 feet long and by using small branchline engines in HO a 18" radius is possible (11" in N); 24" when short 60 feet coaches are used (15" in N).
These are minimum radii, if you love as many do, the current MR project railroad, running through the desert requires much larger radii.
So, are you dreaming about a one man railroad, switching cars in an industrial zone in modern Miami , or about running trains with a friend, while one is doing the yardwork the other-one is running a wayfreight in small town America in the 50's, or do you dream about mixed operations along the Santa Fe Surf Line with a 6 man crew in the 70's?
Or just running some trains you fancy? Meaning is, your dreams will very much dictate the choice of scale and radius. Or can you adopt your dreams?
Paul
Paul:
Thx for the inputs, this project is more daunting than I ever anticipated, but if it were easy, it wouldn't be challenging or fun...reminds me of my golf game. I'll get the publications that you suggested, and will go slow...
Gerry
Thx for the food for thought..and your layout looks great...I'm sure it will be a few years before I can follow suit...I'm now convinced to stay away from a 4' X 8" layout, and go with many of the suggestions that I have received and go with an L shape, along a lateral wall, that would be expandable..to start slow and learn by doing...thx again.
Nice layout, thx for the input...Gerry
Alan:
Like the idea of having an expandable layout...would give me time to start slow and expand as my knowledge grows.
Bob: More good thoughts, thx much...I will spend the $100.00 and get the DVD.
handorf I thought about doing a U shaped layout, encompassing the entire room, but I'm new to this, and that thought became overwhelming. Now thinking a simple 4' X 8' layout utilizing N scale would be a good way to start..
Gerry, a 4x8 sheet cut into two long pieces for a L shape is the same surface area either way, but the around the wall layout allows for longer runs and is expandable in the future. The L would take the same amount of scenery, ballasting etc. etc. and a simple backdrop construction.
I would go for N-scale if you feel you can model well in that smaller size (and don't already have a commitment to equipment in HO).
Alan
Co-owner of the proposed CT River Valley RR (HO scale) http://home.comcast.net/~docinct/CTRiverValleyRR/
Hi Handorf
I can recommend some books and some sites to look at.
Trackplanning for Realistic Operation by John Armstrong; much and great chapters about real railroads and lots of technical stuff you will have to know before start building your own layout,e.g. S-curves, radii and spacing.
Two very good books with trackplans are "102 Realistic Trackplans (realistic that all have been build and it contains pages with background information)" and "48 TopNotch Trackplans (with loads of background information)".
A nice little gem is How to Design a Small Switching Layout by Lance Mindheim; it leads you through a lot of design issues you will have to take. E.G. a big or a small layout, appropriate industries and much more.
BTW Going slow can can save you a lot of nasty surprises and money. Just two lessons:
The radius you chose is all important; coaches and modern freightcars need a 30"+ radius in HO; going for a 4x8 in HO excludes passenger and modern trains.
In your space you can build an empire in N-scale, with 50 switches or more for a 5 to 6 men crew; overwhelming indeed. In HO a pretty nice 2 or 3 men layout with 25+ switches, while in O-scale you could build a very attractive though small one (or two) person layout.
My feeling is newbies think building the bench and wiring are daunting tasks; in reality designing a good trackplan and building great scenery are the most difficult issues. But for first two topics a good book can help you out. Benchwork and wiring has to be done systematically and a good book can learn you the pros and con's of different systems.
Have fun and keep smiling
On Byrons site in the part called "Inspirational Layouts" have a peak at Russel Schoofs' Free Haven terminal and Andy Sperandeo's San Jacinto District. Both HO and both well suited to your space.
handorf Intially, I thought about doing a U shaped layout, encompassing the entire room, but I'm new to this, and that thought became overwhelming. Now thinking a simple 4' X 8' layout utilizing N scale would be a good way to start...as I gain experience I could always expand to an L shape layout...does H scale make any sense at all for a 4' X ' layout??
Intially, I thought about doing a U shaped layout, encompassing the entire room, but I'm new to this, and that thought became overwhelming. Now thinking a simple 4' X 8' layout utilizing N scale would be a good way to start...as I gain experience I could always expand to an L shape layout...does H scale make any sense at all for a 4' X ' layout??
I would recommend making up your mind, and either
a) do a test layout (which very well could be a loop design on a rectangular island - say a 30" x 80" - hollow core door sized,or 3 feet x 5 feet or 4 feet x 8 feet or or whatever.
This is to learn techniques, get a train running fast and explore what you like. Some day it quite possibly will be replaced by something else,
or
b) to plan for using the whole room, but to build the layout in stages, one scene at a time, with temporary staging tracks to either side that will hold trains that are going to come into your scene or pass through your scene.
Building a 4x8 N scale layout with the intent of later adding more 4-foot wide sections is a pretty bad combination. It locks your choices in quite a bit, since no matter what you do, you will have to find room for that 4x8 table somewhere in the room.
If you treat your table layout like a test bed from the start, you won't feel bad when the time comes to salvage what tracks and structures you can from that table, disassemble the benchwork and start over with something else.
But far more important than the footprint of the layout is the contents of the layout. What do you want to be able to do on the layout? That means a lot more than footprint.
One big design factor is whether you need or want to have a closed loop of tracks that allows you to do continuous running. Almost everyone who thinks about doing a first layout first thinks "track oval on table with spurs into the center of the table". Because that is the typical train set layout - oval of track, one or two sidings.
But I think that e.g. for me, it would have been a lot more interesting to run on a small 6.5 foot long x 9 inches deep H0 scale shelf layout (which means that it could probably be done in as little as 4 feet long by 6 inches deep in N scale) that looked the track plan by Shortliner Jack below:
or on this 8 x 10 foot L shaped H0 scale track plan (which would fit in about 5 x 6 feet in N scale), inspired by a Lance Mindheim design:
than it would be to run trains on layouts that look like these:
http://www.thortrains.net/trackplan/Nmini1.html
But that comes down to what you like and what you want to model on your layout.
Me, I like switching, urban style, and I like layouts that can fit along the walls of a room, rather than layouts that fill the center of a room.
So for my self I went for this plan (which has undergone a lot of revisions as I have been going along):
Which allowed me to use the space I have in my train room fairly efficiently, without me losing too much of other uses of the room, as shown by these four pictures taken from the door to my layout room:
Your preferences may be totally different. Or you may not yet know your preferences.
But still - consider these two options:
1) A layout does not necessarily have to have continuous run, and
2) You could do a test layout (or several test layouts) to explore different styles of railroading
As always - the rest of us can offer advice - but it is up to you if you want to use any of the advice, and how you want to use the advice received.
Have fun building a layout!
Grin, Stein
FWIW, my 10'x18' space is somewhat similar to the one you initially gave. I would consider using part of your smaller work room too, maybe for an off-layout staging yard (don't worry too much about what that means yet )
As an example, here's the HO scale trackplan I came up with for my space. It is based on the restrictions I had (a.k.a "givens") and the railroady things that were most important to me ("druthers"). Your set of givens and druthers will probably be completely different, but this can give you an idea of one HO scale possibility.
If you can place one end against a wall in the middle you can go 5x15 and have 3 feet access on 3 sideswhich would be a nice size HO [unless you have windows etc in the way ]
51% share holder in the ME&O ( Wife owns the other 49% )
ME&O
I just read the artilce and it certainly left an impact!
Thanks again.....Gerry
Thanks for the input, again all the responses have given me a lot to think about...going slow is probably the best advise...being a classic A personality, it goes against my nature, but this time I will think before I act..
For more background on why a 4x8 island may not always be the ideal format to start with, see this article by professional layout designer Byron Henderson.
And as long as you're there, give the rest of Byron's site a read too, lots of good stuff.
The above advice to start small is good. You've got a nice sized space to fill, but you don't need to fill it all now.
Thanks for the inputs and thoughts...when I started this project I had the 11' X 18' room and an adjacent 11' X 8' room. framed out and finished to be dedicated to the model rr....the smaller room has two workbenches and an assortment of tools to construct the landscapes and buildings etc...I like the idea of going around the room, but the whole thing became overwhelming in scope, since I have no experience at all.
I do plan on going to the local shows in Portland, there are two in March , for ideas and inputs.
Thanks again for your kind advise.
Welcome to the forums.
Not to step on your plans but have you concidered an around the room shelf layout? You have a good sized room that could give you a lot of operational possibilities that an island cannot. There are many types of layouts in both N and HO scale, have you looked at many of the different options? If you subscribe to MR you can go to Subscriber Extras near the top of this page and view over 500 different layouts. There are also a number of books showing layouts.
As for whether N or HO it is up to you. If you have good eyesight and steady hands you should do fine in N. Some folks as they have grown older have even gone back to their roots in mrr, either American Flyer (S scale) or Lionel (O scale) because it is larger and easier to handle.
I would suggest that you go to a train show or find a local club or other modelers so that you can get an idea of some of the possibilities in each scale. To find shows, go to Resources at the top of this page, click on Events then select your state or ones close by. Under Resources you will also find Model Railroad Groups, again select your state. Your local hobby shop (LHS) may also be able to tell you how to contact a group in your area.
Before you make too many decisions read up on scenery techniques, layout construction and operations. Decide what you what to have on your layout era, town/city, rural, do you want to operate with a lot of switching or do you want to sit back and let the trains run while you enjoy them. These are called "druthers" and everybodys are different. This is a very varried hobby and you are the one to make the initial choices, then you are in the right place to ask questions and get a variety of good answers. Remember, you are in the hobby to have fun, do what you will enjoy.
Good luck,
Mac: Thanks for the input and advise...this is my first attempt at this...pls see my reply to Al, just a minute ago.
If this is your very first layout, and you have decided to go with N scale, build a 2x4 table type layout. This will most likely be for learning. Then you can build something bigger and better after that because you will have some experience.
If this is your second or third layout, and if you have the entire room to use, build a layout that goes around the walls and is two foot wide. You will have more layout and more running room than just a table.
One word of caution. If this is your first layout, don't build big to start with. Everyone makes mistakes on their first layout (Including me) and wishes they had done things differently. By starting smaller, you can experiment with different techniques, and there is less to get rid of later.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Seriously consider an around the wall/room layout, much more space for track, structures etc. regardless of the scale.
N-scale will get you more track, longer trains, space for industries and yards plus much broader curves.
I've just completed finishing a 11' X18" room, and plan to have a 4' X 8' model train layout. I will have complete access from all sides of the board...I was initially thinking about going with HO, but now thought it best to go with N scale because of the small size of the layout...Any suggestions>
Thanks, Handorf