One trick I was taught that often helps in environments that are not kind to wood is, use two smaller pieces of lumber instead of one. Example use two 1 x 4s to make a 2 x 4 and so on. They can keep each other in check.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Nice job! As far as warping is concerned if you select the pierces it is not realy a problem. Those that do have a problem are in extreme environments or have sealled one side of the wood. For an example you make a box and paint one side, you are asking for problems
When I first decided I was going to fill a 15' x 24' room full of bench work I did a lot of reading. I kept looking at "L Girder" construction and could not see the point. At least for what I was about to do. I thought box grid construction made sense. You could build up where you wanted to go up, or cut out part of the grid and build down. I know I am going to get jumped on for this next comment but when I look at old photos of L girder techniques it looks to me as if it was something that someone with no carpentry skills came up with. ( okay you can stop yelling at me now)
So off to the " independent" lumber store I went because I wanted Fir not the crap they sell at home depot. No twisting and bending for me thank you. I bought 100, 10' 1" x 4"s. When I told the owner it was for a model railroad he gave me a huge discount. I let it dry for a couple of weeks in the garage and started construction. First I took them all and clamped them together in bunches and ran them through the radial arm saw so they were all exactly the same length. Then for strength and ease of construction while they were clamped I ran them through for lap joints. My biggest bench is 6' x 18'.
Here is what it looks like so far. Easy access to wiring. Once the fascia is added you won't see the mess underneath. If you want to build down screw into the grid frame and go down. The way I built it if I have to cut a chunk out of the grid frame, no sweat it is still strong.
If you want to build up, screw supports into the grid frame and go up. And not just for the track.
Art Hill inspired me to do this part. I wanted a very deep canyon so here it is in its infancy. The long stretch of spline will come out eventually for my big steel bridge. The gorge underneath will go into the corner of the room. I guess you could say I built "down" here. If I did it wrong please let me know.
When I offer advise I am careful to say "this is what I did" or "this is how I would do it". Not "this is the way you must do it" as some people do. Every situation is different so before telling someone how to proceed there are many factors that come into play.
One of those is skill level. I often wonder how many peoples eyes glaze over before they even get to the bench work. You don't need more than basic tools to get through the bench work. For those people I say throw it together as best you can and soon those out of square corners and uneven cuts will disappear under your beautiful landscapes.
Vail and Southwestern RRrrebell To make a box all you need is a circular saw and a framers square, in fact I built mine with an 18 volt circular saw and a framers square, not a very big investment in tools. No really any different to make L girder. A drill is useful, and a saw. Circular saw is nice, but since the biggest thing you are cutting is a 1x4 a hand saw will do. The only other thing that's really useful is a handful of spring clamps. A square is handy, but less important than it is for a box frame, actually.
rrebell To make a box all you need is a circular saw and a framers square, in fact I built mine with an 18 volt circular saw and a framers square, not a very big investment in tools.
To make a box all you need is a circular saw and a framers square, in fact I built mine with an 18 volt circular saw and a framers square, not a very big investment in tools.
Having actually built 4x8 and similar layouts, with at least one using box and one using L girder and two using hybirds, my observations follow:
My hybird arrangement uses upside-down L-girders for the longitudinals. The 1x2 flange on the bottom prevents the 1x4/1x3/1x6 from warping, and gives a mounting point for my less than perfect fitting joists. Because of the flange, I can still easily relocate and angle the joists. In Colorado, I have started using 1x2/1x2 L-girders for the joists under foam, again to prevent warping and sagging. This also gives a decent base on which to glue the foam, rather than depending on the sometimes problemmatic foam to side girder glue joint.
just my thoughts and experiences
Fred W
You may want to look at Jeff Wilson's book, "Basic Model Railroad Benchwork: The Complete Photo Guide" It was published by Kalmbach in 2002 and is available from them and possibly from Amazon.
I found this book very useful when I was building benchwork for my layout using "L" girder construction. It covers all of the benchwork framing methods, as well as other methods and materials, such as foam insulation board for the bench top. It's definitely worth a read.
Bob
The whole point of L girder is that it is easier to make. No precision cutting is required. L girder also has the advantage of being able to easily have the girders at angles.
A box grid requires cutting all the joists to the same length and the ends square. This isn't hard to do, but folks that haven't done some woodworking don't know how to do this.
I just completed a 5'4" by 12' grid using a miter box with hand saw to make all my cuts except for the top which is 2 sheets of 1/2" plywood each cut by Lowes for free at the 5'4" mark. I used a cordless drill to screw everything together. I also used 4 clamps and 4 sawhorses mainly because I'm not limber enough anymore to work on the floor.
Enjoy
Paul
rrebellTo make a box all you need is a circular saw and a framers square, in fact I built mine with an 18 volt circular saw and a framers square, not a very big investment in tools.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Doc in CTL-Girders are more than just the girder. You need to factor in the joists (minimum of two just to keep the ends square) and any risers that you need, plus the material for the sub roadbed (is there commercially, ready made spline?) While you can build with a handsaw and carpenters square, I suspect many L-girder builders have a wood working shop nearby.3 pieces of 1x4 (a common size for L-girder vertical) will make the frame for a 2x8ft shelf/table.
To make an L girder 2x8 layout, I'd use 4 8 foot 2x3s and 2 8 foot 1x2s, plus one more piece to make risers out of, I guess. I'd have a much easier time making it square than if I tried to make a box frame. There's way less need for a woodworking shop to make L girders than a box. There may reasons to not use L girder (depth of the layout would be one of them), but I don't think cost or difficulty of construction are included in that list.
Either way you need some kind of roadbed, and almost anything that would work in one case would work in the other.
I was "scared" to try L girder, it looked intimidating. I changed my mind after the glue on the first girder dried.
Welcome to the forums!
Earlier today I wrote you a response, but as I got ready to post it my mouse ate it. (Not a 4 legged one) When the cursor moved the screen went bezerk and the computer shut down. I had to go elsewhere at that time (probably a good thing I was about ready to adjust it with a 3# hammer.) Let's see if I can remember any of it.
First, you are ahead of some folks in that you haven't done anything that you will have to do major changes on before you asked questions.
My suggestion is to read, magazines, books on scenery, benchwork, wiring and any other subject that interests you. Since you are a subscriber go to Subscribers Extras (above) and look at track plans. As well as the HO layouts you can look at N scale half the size of your available space and O scale twice the size.
Next go to Resources at the top of this page and go to the Events section. Going to a train show is a great place to find people to talk to from your area. Most operators of the display layouts are very willing to share their knowledge and what you are talking about is right in front of you. Also go to MRR Groups, clubs often are willing to help new folks get started and have things to show you. The third part I would go to there is Glossary, that will help you understand some of the terminology used here and in conversations.
Think about your new knowledge, what do you want to get out of your layout: continuously running trains, switching, long trains. Where is it: mountains, city, open country, wooded areas. When do want to model: 50's, earlier, more recent, today. A table layout is alright, but can you get to all sides of it and it takes up quite a bit of space and usualy results in a loop type layout. A shelf around the room is out of the way, but has its drawbacks if you have doors and windows to consider, but most are conquerable.
When you have some of those questions answered in your mind, choose a benchwork design that seems to best suit your druthers.
You are in the right place to ask questions and there are many knowledgeable folks here very willing to give you specific information. Don't expect total agreement, think about all the ideas and go for it It's your layout, you are the one who gets to choose the final designs.
Yes, 2x4's are definitely overkill for a layouts. A good benchwork book will help you decide on material and type of construction you want to use.
Looking forward to more questions. Now I hope the mouse is going to behave!
Have fun,
Paulus JasHow far beside the truth can you be. The L-girders are very easy to build, cheap and very forgiving.....constructing a box frame is more expensive and more difficult to do then L-girders.
REALLY
L-Girders are more than just the girder. You need to factor in the joists (minimum of two just to keep the ends square) and any risers that you need, plus the material for the sub roadbed (is there commercially, ready made spline?) While you can build with a handsaw and carpenters square, I suspect many L-girder builders have a wood working shop nearby.3 pieces of 1x4 (a common size for L-girder vertical) will make the frame for a 2x8ft shelf/table.
As for foam vs. cookie cutter vs. sub roadbed strips, that is another issue. I will point out that many of the layouts being built are in fact rather flat with few canyons, deep rivers, etc. It's why hardshell came into use, most terrain is built up (and that can be done in foam as well).
As you said, "it's your choice" and for a first layout I think simpler is better; when you build the micro world/empire other options should be considered.
Alan
Co-owner of the proposed CT River Valley RR (HO scale) http://home.comcast.net/~docinct/CTRiverValleyRR/
AndrewRRI have my area picked out already and am ready to start building the table. Any help would be great.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
hi
Doc in CT However, I personally think L-Girder is overkill (overly complex and expensive) for a small layout like that one, that doesn't need the flexibility.
How far beside the truth can you be. The L-girders are very easy to build, cheap and very forgiving. As some of our new guests are finding out grades can be incorporated without any hassle or additional costs. Changes are easily made, also afterwards, what is the problem?
The tracks need a subroadbed, which was a layer of plywood and a layer of cork (or homasote). The plywood was not used as a tabletop, only the part under the tracks was kept, the remainder was cut away. (hence the name cookie-cutter-method) While much scenery is below track level a great system.
The sheet of foam replaces the plywood/homasote part; it is cheaper and lightweight, but for every thing under foam level you have a lot of carving to do. The real problems are grades. You can buy Woodland Scenics inclines; but they cost.
Under the foam you will need a frame, constructing a box frame is more expensive and more difficult to do then L-girders.
But, if you're gonna build a flat switching layout foam will do great. Our host has some pretty good books about bench-work; a far better choice for this job then any forum.
It's your choice: a box-frame or L-girders under and on top Cookie-Cutter-plywood, Foam or Splines.
rrebellL girder is great for railroads that are large and have huge differences in elevations
I wouldn't exactly call the current MR Project Salt Lake Route a large layout (only 4x9). However, I personally think L-Girder is overkill (overly complex and expensive) for a small layout like that one, that doesn't need the flexibility.
Box frame with foam or ply/foam is less expensive and has some flexibility (just have to build up) for smaller layouts. The OP wanted some basic knowledge and guidance. Nothing we say here will substitute for finding some decent books and reading or tracking down construction articles on the web.
rrebellGood answer but Linn's book is a little old school. L girder is great for railroads that are large and have huge differences in elevations but unless you want big canyons to go below the layout the world is moving towards foam (its just easier and requires less precision tools as apposed to the spline method etc.).
Good answer but Linn's book is a little old school. L girder is great for railroads that are large and have huge differences in elevations but unless you want big canyons to go below the layout the world is moving towards foam (its just easier and requires less precision tools as apposed to the spline method etc.).
It's a little old school, but it is still an excellent reference. And the latest version does at least use the word foam. L girder is really easier to build than a box frame in some ways, and I also believe that it is more forgiving of less than perfect wood.
There's a newer book that I imagine was meant to update/replace it, but I don't recall the name off the top of my head.
Borrow??
Andrew - go to your local library and check out their selection of model railroading books. Check a few out and read through them before starting on your project. Constructing benchwork has not dramatically changed in years so even if their selection is dated the techniques shown will still apply. if your library doesn't have any then visit your local hobby shop and purchase a good 'basics' book to have as a reference. Once you read through you'll be better prepared to ask specific questions about what you don't understand instead of asking generalities. Having a good reference book, or two, will be more helpful than having to ask questions here.
AndrewRRMy question is what is the best way to build a table for example do I use 2 x 4's to frame it up and so on?
Andrew, the two basic approaches are box frame or L-girder. A box frame is exactly that, 1x4s in a rectangle with cross pieces. The solid top is placed on top or inside. L-girder is a form of construction popularized by Lynn Wescott. A girder is constructed of a 1x3 or 1x4 vertical and a 1x2 horizontal (an upside down L). 1x3 or 1x4 horizontal joists are then placed across the girders. These support the top or scenery, or support risers for track sub roadbed . The current project in MR is L-girder design.
AndrewRRAlso what do you use as a top?
Traditionally, plywood or homosote; growing in popularity rigid foam sheets (the pink, blue or green type). L-girder construction is less likely to use a solid surface.
Borrow (it's out of print) a copy of Linn Westcott's How to Build Model Railroad Benchwork and read.
Hi Andrew
This is the place to ask questions. The people here have offered me guidance every step of the way and I have had great success and enjoyment on my journey.
As far as your benchwork is concerned there are many ways to proceed, so eventually you will have to make a decision as to how you want to build yours. The suggestions will come.
The first question you need to answer is how big can you or do you want to make it? Do you have any ideas for a track plan? What are some of the things you want on your RR? Have fun!
Welcome to the forum.
Just to the right of this post you will see a box that says "search community".
Type "Benchwork" in that box and push the search button. You will find a great many threads that contain a great deal of information on this subject.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
My name is Andrew and I just subscribed to the magazine. I am looking at creating a layout. I had one with my dad when I was a kid and would like to get back into it. My question is what is the best way to build a table for example do I use 2 x 4's to frame it up and so on? Also what do you use as a top? I am going to be using HO scale. I have my area picked out already and am ready to start building the table. Any help would be great.