Paulus JasI assumed al "fresh"cars were coming from the cassette. By pre-staging in the yard you solved the (my) problem.
Well, I'm glad you guys ask these questions - it forces me to think things through and recheck whether I am forgetting things.
Got up early this morning to wrap the Christmas gifts for my wife. Now I'll spend 15 minutes on doing a quick analysis of work space on the layout before heading back to bed, and sleep until the kids come to wake us up - which probably will be at 7 am ;-)
Looking at the layout and checking for "work space" - places where I can temporarily stash a couple of inbound or outbound cars while I am switching.
In the figures below red cars are cars that potensially can be pulled, red tracks are tracks that can be used for temporary storage during switching, without blocking my moves too badly:
"Warehouse left"
There is ample track space off towards the right as a switching lead. Should work
"Warehouse/milling right":
Biggest limitation here is that it may take two moves to get all cars out from or into Great Northern Stationary, since the switching lead for Robinson/NY/GN Stationary only can hold engine + 3 cars. On the other hand - it is not a move I will be doing all the time, it is not a given that I will fill all industry tracks to capacity, and I can definitely live with this one switching move being a little clumsy.
Team track
Should work okay. Outbound cars are pulled right, and either left on main (track above the red track), or used as a handle while spotting the inbound cars from the red track.
Williams/North Star loading:
Biggest limitations here are that there are uphills on the main on both ends of the area - 2% up 22" radius curves around the corner curve both in the upper left hand corner and in the lower right hand corner. But I have tested that my RS-3s can pull or push 5 cars (or possibly more - haven't had time to check when they stall) uphill around a 19" 4% incline, so 22" 2% should be doable.
Barge terminal area:
In addition to whatever yard tracks along the bottom that may be available to stash outbound cars before inbound cars are delivered (it is not a given that there will be two available yard tracks), I also can use the double ended siding below the main along the top of the layout for temporary storage of inbound or outbound cars.
Biggest limitation while switching this area is inclines and curves. The main/yard lead curve around the upper left hand corner is 2% on an 22" radius curve, and the ramp down around the lower left hand area to the barge terminal tracks is 4% at a 19" radius curve.
These two curves will be the most critical on the layout, and will need my best track work. I have done an initial rough test and have found that at least a couple of my engines can pull a long enough cut of cars up the steepest and sharpest radius curve.
The next test will be how well the pushing cuts of cars up and around the 2% 22" radius curve around the upper left hand corner will work - that is pretty critical for whether it will work at all to have the yard in the lower left hand corner.
I hope to be able to lay some temporary track and do some more testing here tomorrow. But today is Christmas Eve - time to snatch another hour of sleep before the kids come to wake us up :-)
Merry Christmas!
Grin, Stein
hi Stein,
a quick reply: I assumed al "fresh"cars were coming from the cassette. By pre-staging in the yard you solved the (my) problem.
Have fun, keep smiling
Paul
Just a quick answer - don't have time to think it through extremely well right now, due to last minute Christmas preparations. I think you are making it more complicated than it needs to be.
Think about it e.g. this way:
1) Session starts11 "inbound" cars are prestaged on yard track 1 (closest to south wall)5 "outbound" interchange cars are prestaged on yard track 2 A foreign transfer run with 5 inbound cars for industries on layout is on the staging cassette, facing counterclockwise- Transfer run moves to double ended mill siding, drops off inbound cars, picks up outbound interchange cars from yard track 2, takes them to staging- Home road engine will first deliver 5 inbound cars for mill, at the same picking up outbound cars. Grabs five first cars from track 3, moves over to the warehouse district runaround, leave inbound cars there, pick up outbound cars, leave on track next to runaround, push inbound cars into position at industry, push outbound cars back onto main pull outbound 5 cars up to yard track 2, cuts off engine, run around on yard track 3/main 2) We now have 7 inbound cars on yard track 3, 5 outbound cars on yard track 2, 5 inbound cars on double ended siding by mill Pick next group of cars to swap out - e.g River Barge terminal, Pull cars from barge terminal, push into yard track 1 or 2, deliver new cars to barge terminal And so on and so forth. As long as each switching job isn't trying to deliver or pull too many cars, it should be possible to swap out all 16 cars in a session If desired, one could of course start the switching by sorting the 11 inbound cars from track 1 and the 5 inbound cars from the double ended siding in the yard. The yard has three tracks, each capable of holding 10+ cars. Sorting 16 cars using three tracks is not all that difficult
There are probably more quirks than this, but at a quick look, it would seem that it should be possible to switch this area using three or four 4-5 car trains without needing more runarounds or more yard tracks ?
Well, back to Christmas preparations - still some gifts to wrap for tomorrow :-)
Smile, Stein
I've copied your schematic and tried to figure out train movements. I added some colours to get a better image; not intended to be a "proposal".
A train from the cassette is first going to River Yard. Here cars for the other road are dropped and cars for our "home"road picked up. Eventually cars for the barge terminal can be left behind as well. A nice bit of drilling is done here.
Then down to the mill siding, serving the proper ware house district. After pulling outbound cars I found all tracks filled; to create a needed runaround, I added the new crossover. The number of tracks before the row of warehouses is kept to 5; you could keep a small access road between the two yards and still find space for a teamtrack scene.
More fundamental however is trainlength. I still envision 7 or 9 car trains, half of the cars for the other RR-company and the barge terminal. When your trains from the cassette are much shorter, this suggests the drilling has been done elsewhere.
You could, using two cassettes, put half the train on your pike first and with a second cassette the other half. Or a two track-cassette or .................?
A nice dilemma; if you like Lance Mindheim's solution you can omit all yardwork and add some extra warehouses along the south side of your layout. I would love to keep some drilling in. You still have some good thinking to do.
A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year
Keep smiling and grinningPaul
Doughless Enjoying the thread, which is about trying to find ways to improve your already great layout. I think the yard at the top was probably too small. Good change.
Enjoying the thread, which is about trying to find ways to improve your already great layout. I think the yard at the top was probably too small. Good change.
Yes, I think moving that yard from the middle of the layout to the end probably makes the most sense both scenically and operationally. Now it looks like this (conceptually):
I love the layout, but somehow, always thought there could be more done along the south wall. Don't know what or how, but if discussed, perhaps ideas would surface. I know the door opening eats up space. What about relocating your staging area to the southeast corner of the layout? Maybe relocating Williams Hardware from the milling district to the spot in between the team track and overpass would allow you to pull North Star to the left, along with the main line and building flat, and tuck two staging tracks behind the pulled out flat. That would require a three track cassette or bridge, which, it sounds like, you've partially considered.
I love the layout, but somehow, always thought there could be more done along the south wall. Don't know what or how, but if discussed, perhaps ideas would surface. I know the door opening eats up space.
What about relocating your staging area to the southeast corner of the layout? Maybe relocating Williams Hardware from the milling district to the spot in between the team track and overpass would allow you to pull North Star to the left, along with the main line and building flat, and tuck two staging tracks behind the pulled out flat.
That would require a three track cassette or bridge, which, it sounds like, you've partially considered.
Move it left ? Oh, now I see what you mean - pull it closer to the aisle, not counterclockwise along the mainline. And then have the main run in front of the pulled out flat while two staging tracks run behind the pulled out flat, all three tracks crossing the door on bridges and/or cassettes.
Mmm - flip the turnout from the main to the warehouse district from a RH to a LH to get a steeper angle, use a double slip to let the right end of the double ended siding join the main at the same point where a track goes out towards the back.
Mmm - could get a 20" radius curve at least, maybe 21" radius.
Don't think I would want to try to run staging tracks behind things there - I would be pretty cramped, but it certainly open up a possibility for an industry spur down into the lower right hand corner.
I'll think a little more about that corner before I fasten the tracks down - I think I got a spare double slip somewhere I probably could use.
Perhaps some of the structures are too set in their place, but I thought maybe that would open up the area for maybe an industry or two to switch where the staging/yard is now. If you relocated Williams Hardware to the space suggested, I would put the switch somewhere near the green car on the lead track, and having the Williams spur cross the team track and diving at an angle towards the overpass, terminating there.
Perhaps some of the structures are too set in their place, but I thought maybe that would open up the area for maybe an industry or two to switch where the staging/yard is now.
If you relocated Williams Hardware to the space suggested, I would put the switch somewhere near the green car on the lead track, and having the Williams spur cross the team track and diving at an angle towards the overpass, terminating there.
It certainly is an option.Not sure I would want to move Williams, though - having that narrow gap between two buildings with two tracks between the two buildings is a visual effect I would like to keep.
Of course - there is nothing preventing me from just putting an industry on the backdrop behind the yard area in the lower left hand corner, if I feel like switching that area instead.
"Yard" is just a label for a group of tracks - the exact same tracks can be considered to be industry tracks instead, while I park the cars to be handled at the tracks over in the warehouse district, temporarily designating that area "the yard".
I haven't been able to follow your prototype or operating plan real closely, so that suggestion might be too extreme. Its a great small layout either way.
No suggestion is too extreme. I may not use it, but it often will give me ideas I had not considered.
Btw - I snuck into my train room this morning to test that ramp up from the Barge Terminal with more cars. My trusty RS-3 had no objections to pulling 5 good cars (properly weighted, free rolling metal wheels, good couplers) up that 19" radius 4% incline ramp.
That's the most extreme incline on the layout, so if that works, the rest (which are minimum 22" radius, maximum 2% incline) should hopefully also work - I will test pushing realistic length cuts of cars up them before I fasten things down, though.
Picture of train pulling up ramp:
Hey Stein,
What about relocating your staging area to the southeast corner of the layout? Maybe relocating Williams Hardware from the milling district to the spot in between the team track and overpass would allow you to pull North Star to the left, along with the main line and building flat, and tuck two staging tracks behind the pulled out flat. That would require a three track cassette or bridge, which, it sounds like, you've partially considered. Perhaps some of the structures are too set in their place, but I thought maybe that would open up the area for maybe an industry or two to switch where the staging/yard is now. If you relocated Williams Hardware to the space suggested, I would put the switch somewhere near the green car on the lead track, and having the Williams spur cross the team track and diving at an angle towards the overpass, terminating there.
Just a thought
Doug
- Douglas
Texas Zephersteinjr Change the turnout for the Dock / Tank terminal from a righty to a lefty. It will blend with the lead track avoiding the double "S" curve and probably gain a capacity of one car on each side.
steinjr
Good point, will do.
Then remind me once again why you are using the main line track for the staging cassette instead of leaving it alone and making a double track cassette for use with the too industrial support yard tracks?
Originally I made a cassette for the main because it killed two birds with one stone - it gave me a capability to turn my point-to-point layout into a continuous run on the main line when I wanted to (for kid running, display running, breaking in engine) plus a way to get short trains in and out of the layout. Removing the cassette doesn't break the point-to-point operations, it just removes staging and continuous run.
If I instead added a double track staging cassette that feeds into the two yard tracks closest to the wall in the lower left hand corner, that essentially extends the length of those two tracks. Main advantage is that it makes it possible to transfer more cars into or out of the layout in one operation, but that demands that there isn't much of anything else on those two tracks along the bottom wall while cars or trains move in or out of the staging tracks. It obviously can be done, but right now I don't feel that it adds much more to operational possibilities.
I'll keep it in mind, though - thanks for the suggestions !
Then remind me once again why you are using the main line track for the staging cassette instead of leaving it alone and making a double track cassette for use with the two industrial support yard tracks?
If it is any consolation, Stein, the sun has been setting about a full minute later each day for nearly a week already. Unfortunately, it was also rising later during that period, but it will slow in that respect over the next week. By the 8th of January, it will be broadening our day on both ends by a full 80 or 90 seconds, for a total of nearly 3 minutes.
But, who's counting....?
-Crandell
odaveOn the team track, I would put some more space between it and the siding. That would enable those tracks to be loaded or unloaded from either side. Maybe have a raised dock on one side and a ramp off the end for circus style loading/unloading.
On the team track, I would put some more space between it and the siding. That would enable those tracks to be loaded or unloaded from either side. Maybe have a raised dock on one side and a ramp off the end for circus style loading/unloading.
Sounds like a good idea - I'll certainly keep that in mind when I get to that point.
At the moment I am still messing around with the barge terminal area - did a few quick test runs with various engines to check whether that ramp up from the barge terminal will work okay.
My tiny little 44-tonner can haul itself up and down the hill, but can stall out with just one car. Not surprised - it is pretty light weight, and that ramp is pretty tough - 24" of 4% incline at 19" radius.
My Athearn RS-3s seems to eat such inclines for breakfast and still come back for more - they can both pull 3 average cars uphill and push 3 cars uphill, without breaking into a bad sweat. So I guess the incline is doable, but there will be some restrictions on what engines can switch the barge terminal.
I can live pretty well with that. I'll see if I can work in a little more curve radius when I get things glued down in that corner.
Probably not until after Christmas Eve - next couple of nights will be 100% spent getting the house ready for Christmas Eve, which is the big day over here in Norway.
Today the wife, I and the kids got a pile of boxes with Christmas decorations down from the attic, put on a home made mix of American and Norwegian Christmas music on the CD player and started decorating the house. We'll do the Christmas Tree on Wednesday night - the night before Christmas over here.
And tomorrow we start heading for brighter days again - yihaa! 6 hours of sunlight gets old pretty fast :-)
I do enjoy a good Stein thread!
tgindyStein, on a more serious note, I'm amazed by your insights into operations as a way of doing railway business. You have a real gift of discernment here, as seen in your sincere responses to others here on the forum, and; I think you are headed in the right direction to realistically model what you wish to achieve with your personal model railroading within the available space.
Stein, on a more serious note, I'm amazed by your insights into operations as a way of doing railway business. You have a real gift of discernment here, as seen in your sincere responses to others here on the forum, and; I think you are headed in the right direction to realistically model what you wish to achieve with your personal model railroading within the available space.
Thank you very much for your kind words. I certainly hope I am heading in a reasonably sensible direction. Time will show, I guess.
In the meantime, I am having fun, so I guess I must be doing something halfway right :-)
Paulus Jas steinjrOTOH, having a cassette there gives me far more operational flexibility. It gives me a place to have trains (and cars) enter and exit the layout. What means OTOH?
steinjrOTOH, having a cassette there gives me far more operational flexibility. It gives me a place to have trains (and cars) enter and exit the layout.
What means OTOH?
Abbreviation-speak for "On The Other Hand". Must be due to me spending far too much time on the Usenet newsgroups instead of spending it reading my university textbooks back in the late 80s and early 90s :-)
Paulus Jas steinjrIt kills several birds with one stone In Holland we catch two flies in one blow.
steinjrIt kills several birds with one stone
In Holland we catch two flies in one blow.
In Norway too. "To fluer i en smekk" - "two flies in one slap". I guess the proper saying in English would be "killing two birds with one stone" - I was just playing with the saying.
Paulus Jas steinjrI could feed in trains on the cassette heading counterclockwise around the layout, possibly dropping off inbound cars at the double ended siding along the aisle in the top part of the layout, then continue counterclockwise to go get outbound cars from the yard at the lower left hand corner before heading back clockwise to the staging cassette (and then off layout). Why counter clockwise? From the cassette to the "Upper Barge Yard" for classification and then to the small CD-yard. Outbound cars can be stored here as well and when space becomes scarce shove them to the Upper yard and pick them up later. The crossover is an asset now.
steinjrI could feed in trains on the cassette heading counterclockwise around the layout, possibly dropping off inbound cars at the double ended siding along the aisle in the top part of the layout, then continue counterclockwise to go get outbound cars from the yard at the lower left hand corner before heading back clockwise to the staging cassette (and then off layout).
Why counter clockwise? From the cassette to the "Upper Barge Yard" for classification and then to the small CD-yard. Outbound cars can be stored here as well and when space becomes scarce shove them to the Upper yard and pick them up later. The crossover is an asset now.
Well, it could be done either way. But I think it would be fairly fun to have an arriving train drive 3/4s of the way around the layout on it's way in or out.
Back to CD-yard. I liked the inch additional space between the warehouse yard and the CD-yard. When coming from the barge area a direct crossover between the two yards ( in front of Robison Produce) would create a extra run-around-route, so you can use the track next to the team track for enhancing yard capacity.
Yes, that's one option. Another one would be to make the yard tracks in front of the warehouse district even longer, like this:
But for some reason I cannot fully explain yet, I am more tempted to really cut back on the tracks between the double ended siding and the aisle along the front of the top part of the layout, and follow up the team track idea.
Maybe I feel that this area just are getting too many tracks? I know it is reasonably prototypical, but it still feels like it is getting too track heavy.
Have to sleep some more on that idea, I guess.
With a switch on the cassette you can make it two feet longer, I need some sleep, I guess.
Mmm - probably, but I don't know if I would want to move a cassette that is much longer than the one I already have.
I'll have to sleep on it (or possibly ponder it for a couple of days) to make up my mind about how I want to do things here.
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
OTOH = On The Other Hand. I looked it up on Google.
HSG = High School Graduate. I may be putting HSG on the business card.
LOL = Laugh Out Loud.
steinjrdid you mean like for getting trucks under the main and into the dock area, or am I misunderstanding you ?
First question YES and for the second question NO, I love bridges, besides emphasizing the difference in heigth.
Getting my mind working on a sunday "morning" isn't always easy. With a switch on the cassette you can make it two feet longer, I need some sleep, I guess.
Have fun, keep grinning and smiling
Paulus JasYour initial plan was to have two trains from two different companies (e.g. the Q and the Milw. road) in staging. Both were allowed to switch dedicated industries only. So the Q-wayfreight might have cars for the other industries but had to put them on a holding track in the yard, till the Milw-turn could spot them. With this scheme you really need the small CD-yard. But has it to be there? If I remember well you like some big industry in the foreground so trains disappear behind them for a brief moment. If the yard switching could be done near the barge terminal, you would have earned a brownie or two and a big plant at CD. What I do not know is your vision about staging. Did you intended to stage the two trains with fresh cars from drawers nearby, during an ante session, or did you envision a closed system with the very same cars re-appearing all the time? What I did not see either a couple of month's ago was the Mississippi bridge; I just saw a drop-in. Building the bridge with grades at both sides is pulling the two banks together, while I imagined them miles apart. For a brief moment I considered using the drop-in (not the bridge) for cassette staging.
If I remember well you like some big industry in the foreground so trains disappear behind them for a brief moment. If the yard switching could be done near the barge terminal, you would have earned a brownie or two and a big plant at CD.
What I do not know is your vision about staging. Did you intended to stage the two trains with fresh cars from drawers nearby, during an ante session, or did you envision a closed system with the very same cars re-appearing all the time?
What I did not see either a couple of month's ago was the Mississippi bridge; I just saw a drop-in. Building the bridge with grades at both sides is pulling the two banks together, while I imagined them miles apart. For a brief moment I considered using the drop-in (not the bridge) for cassette staging.
Thanks for reminding me about that! In my preoccupation with the barge terminal scene, I had lost sight of my main operating plan.
Yes, I would like to set up new cars to be switched between running sessions (instead of switching the same cars over and over again), and I would like to have trains from from other railroads make appearances on the layout as part of operations.
When you shift the road between Security Warehouse and Lindney Brothers a foot to the left, and shift all tracks in front of the warehouse-wall two inches to the northern wall, you will gain just the space for a "very" truncated building at CD.
I wasn't really planning to put in a building between the aisle and the main in the C-D area along the upper wall - I agree that there would only be room for a very truncated big building (or very small building), and it probably also would make it too hard to reach things on the tracks up by the security warehouse in the upper left hand corner.
Also, I got my "train disappearing behind big building" druther covered in the milling district scene along the right wall. If that will the path trains take to and from staging as well, so much the better.
I was thinking more something along the lines of a team track, with various types of unloading equipment, like some of those old portable conveyor belt thingies, maybe an end ramp and such things.
You can use the bridge-lead to hold the cars for the other RR. The Q-wayfreight first switches between Bridge 2 and 3, to set out the cars for the next Milw.-turn, and picks up the cars left by the previous Milw.-turn. The remainder goes as usual. Doing so would mean that the (staging) yard has to be be level and the barge-turn has to drop down a lot. You have about 3.5 feet between the switch and the dock road. I am not sure, but enough for a road underpass?
You can use the bridge-lead to hold the cars for the other RR. The Q-wayfreight first switches between Bridge 2 and 3, to set out the cars for the next Milw.-turn, and picks up the cars left by the previous Milw.-turn. The remainder goes as usual.
Doing so would mean that the (staging) yard has to be be level and the barge-turn has to drop down a lot. You have about 3.5 feet between the switch and the dock road. I am not sure, but enough for a road underpass?
I am sorry - I didn't totally understand that part about the dock road and the road underpass - did you mean like for getting trucks under the main and into the dock area, or am I misunderstanding you ?
Hmm - I am getting an idea about a possible operating scheme from what you are describing. That Mississippi River Bridge across the door opening you mention. My very first staging idea was to just use a plain cassette there to bring short trains (an engine and five cars) in and out of the layout. Like this:
Dropping that cassette in favor of a bridge gets me nothing operationally, and the bridge is not a core scenic element for me.
Actually, as you point out, scenically it is a distraction rather than an enhancement. The scene on the right of the door (milling district) is supposed to be on the same side of the river (and quite a bit upstream) from the scene on the left of the door (barge terminal).
OTOH, having a cassette there gives me far more operational flexibility. It gives me a place to have trains (and cars) enter and exit the layout.
I have room just outside that door for quite a few shelves of staging space, if I transfer cars (and short trains) from staging to layout using that cassette (or several cassettes like it).
I'll replace that bridge scene with a staging cassette again. It kills several birds with one stone - it allows me to get trains from other companies in and out, and it allows me to replace cars with a minimum of handling when getting ready for an operating session.
By not being scenicked (sp?), it also encourages me to not leave the cassette in, except when I need to get cars on or off the layout, or if I am just running trains round and round in loops (which is what my youngest kid likes to do).
The main reason why I wanted to drop the yard at C-D was that it feels like it is way too small to have cuts of cars being dropped off or picked up there by a second train - the place can barely fit 10 cars on the two yard tracks (if I cram them), without filling up the double ended siding as well.
If I use the three tracks in the bottom left hand corner as a yard, max capacity for the yard is on the order of 20 to 30 cars (depending on whether I consider the main to be a yard track sometimes, when I am running the layout in point to point mode - cassette not used - instead of continuous run mode - cassette used).
I could feed in trains on the cassette heading counterclockwise around the layout, possibly dropping off inbound cars at the double ended siding along the aisle in the top part of the layout, then continue counterclockwise to go get outbound cars from the yard at the lower left hand corner before heading back clockwise to the staging cassette (and then off layout).
Yes - that would probably work. OTOH - it is 8 am on a Sunday morning here - my mind may not be operating at optimal speed right now :-)
Any obvious problems with the operating scheme above ?
And a Merry Christmas to you too !
Edit: Updated track plan (warehouse63.jpg):
A difficult question. Your initial plan was to have two trains from two different companies (e.g. the Q and the Milw. road) in staging. Both were allowed to switch dedicated industries only. So the Q-wayfreight might have cars for the other industries but had to put them on a holding track in the yard, till the Milw-turn could spot them. With this scheme you really need the small CD-yard. But has it to be there?
So, what to do? When you shift the road between Security Warehouse and Lindney Brothers a foot to the left, and shift all tracks in front of the warehouse-wall two inches to the northern wall, you will gain just the space for a "very" truncated building at CD. You can use the bridge-lead to hold the cars for the other RR. The Q-wayfreight first switches between Bridge 2 and 3, to set out the cars for the next Milw.-turn, and picks up the cars left by the previous Milw.-turn. The remainder goes as usual.
Merry Christmas
Keep smiling and grinnig
odaveOne thing I'm not sure about is eliminating the hidden staging and going to all onboard staging. You'd lose the physical appearance of a train coming into your world from somewhere, and then going back to somewhere. It would still be implied, of course, but you'd lose the actual move. I guess coming across the Mississippi bridge could be that move, but then you'd have to pay no attention to tail end of the train at E-F. I think the current yard at CD serves a logical purpose in that area. What kind of industry would you be replacing it with? Would modeling that industry and its operations be worth the loss of the physical onboard-offboard move to you? I think if it were me considering the tradeoffs, I think I'd elevate the main, sink the docks, but keep the hidden staging tracks and the yard at CD.
One thing I'm not sure about is eliminating the hidden staging and going to all onboard staging. You'd lose the physical appearance of a train coming into your world from somewhere, and then going back to somewhere. It would still be implied, of course, but you'd lose the actual move. I guess coming across the Mississippi bridge could be that move, but then you'd have to pay no attention to tail end of the train at E-F.
I think the current yard at CD serves a logical purpose in that area. What kind of industry would you be replacing it with? Would modeling that industry and its operations be worth the loss of the physical onboard-offboard move to you?
I think if it were me considering the tradeoffs, I think I'd elevate the main, sink the docks, but keep the hidden staging tracks and the yard at CD.
You put your finger right on the sticky point (umm - possibly a bad analogy ).
I guess I feel that the yard along the top quickly got way too cramped, while a yard around the curve at the lower left hand corner can be a bit bigger. Also, having a yard in the lower left hand corner creates a yard/barge terminal job that can be switched pretty independently of the milling/warehouse job.
I'll think about it some more before gluing stuff down :-)
Stein:
I don't think you're being too worried about looks. The height difference does look dramatic to me, and I'd try to keep it if possible. It would be a really cool looking scene.
If the new yard tracks in the back are lower than the main on a causeway, would coupling/uncoupling back there be a little more difficult with the reachover? That would be a good argument for keeping those yard tracks on the same level as the main.
Splitting the height difference between riverside and the main would probably be the way I'd do it, but I'd hate to try to carve that riverside foam flat. Maybe you could build some kind of guide board and clamp it up against that area, then push a hot knife down flat against it as you move it horizontally to cut the foam. It would help keep the knife fairly level. Not sure if that made sense or not
Edit: just saw your edit, so nevermind the above paragraph
Your choice of course
Edit 2: I think I remember now that those hidden tracks were not for mainline staging but for off-board industries, which would make the mainline move issue not apply. That will teach me about what happens when I post before coffee
Forgot to add that I tried out another possibility too - doing a steeper (1", 4%) climb of the main in the upper left hand corner and leaving the entire area along the left wall and the three tracks closes to the wall at the bottom at elevation +1", with a steeper downhill (also 1", 4%) from the left wall to the barge terminal.
Not a problem for the barge terminal area, where there will be shorter cuts of cars and where cars will be pushed downhill and pulled uphill, but would be too steep for a 22" radius curve on the main/yard lead around the upper right hand curve.
Hmmm - it is a 1" height difference I want between the barge terminal and the main. Could I leave the main/yard tracks at a level elevation of +0.5" and take the barge terminal area down 0.5" instead ?
I'll ponder that for a little while before I possibly grab a knife and start slashing away at the foam. If I had built cookie cutter plywood there would have been no problem - but I used blue foam, and can only get 2" insulation foam here, not 1" foam.
Otherwise I would just have cut out the barge terminal area and replaced it with not so thick foam and built it up again from there. But can I get it reasonably flat if I try to cut away 0.5" of foam along the whole barge terminal scene ?
Edit: after pondering it for a while, the obvious solution struck me - why try to cut down the thickness of the existing foam layer ? I just cut the whole foam over the barge terminal area away and built up from the 1/4" plywood under the foam. Looks like this now:
Sorry about starting a new thread with a question I then go answer myself. But trying to describe what I was wondering about helped me formulate more clearly what the core problem was (getting vertical distance between main and barge terminal tracks without messing up the yard track).
Hi Guys --
I am having trouble making up my mind about inclines in the lower left hand corner of my layout. I definitely want some elevation changes, but I don't want to make changes that look good, but operate more poorly.
My original idea for the lower left hand corner of my layout (area A and B) is below:
Then it dawned upon me that by redesignating those two tracks closest to the wall at the bottom left from hidden staging to be a visible support yard/visible staging, I could change the yard area along the aisle on the top wall (area C-D in the plan) to another industry. There even would be room for a crossover from the main at the right end of the new yard area along the bottom wall.
Problem is that I am torn about how to deal with the mainline past the river barge terminal and the two yard tracks along the wall in the lower left hand corner now. I have at least three options I can see myself (see figure below), and maybe more you guys can see:
1) Make the area under all three tracks stay flat at elevation +0.5". Gives the longest usable yard tracks along the lower wall - no inclines or roll-away areas for cars, possibility of crossover from main to double ended yard track.
2) Make just the main rise around the lower left hand corner, leave main on "causeway" at elevation +1", making it a more pronounced scenic difference between the harbor scene below and the main above, but leave the two yard tracks closest to the wall at elevation +0.5". Costs me the crossover from the main to track no 2
or
3) Make all three tracks closest to the wall rise around the lower left hand curve, ending up in a plateau at elevation +1" for all three tracks. Will have the crossover from the main at the right end, but also shorter usable yard tracks, since there will be an incline around the curve for all three tracks.
Here are some pictures showing a mockup of how it would look with elevation difference between the main and the barge terminal being respectively 0.5" and 1.0":
Elevation difference 0.5" (no rise for main around lower left hand curve):
Elevation difference 1" (0.5" rise for main around lower left hand curve)
With trains on the curves:
Looking along where the tracks will be in the harbor scene:
I have a preference for more "dramatic" look of having a bigger height difference between the main and the barge terminal tracks, ie my original plan.
Or am I being too overly focused on looks - should I just make the height difference between the main and the barge terminal tracks smaller in order to get longer yard tracks and that crossover ?
One suggestion I have gotten is to make the step 0.5" (to maximize the yard potensial), but try to make it visually higher by having a wider concrete retaining wall with a fence on top.
Any other suggestions for what to do in this corner ?