City Street Width

[Paulus Jas]

Hi Team,

I still don't get the idea. I do not understand why your HO plan can use more space then the N-scale version; your roomspace is a given.

My assumption right now is that you want small radii because you do not know yet the size of your space in your future home and you want to have some space left for a future curve to an extension. The least as possible of course.

When you take two feet from your HO empire, at both sides for a possible end-curve you still have a 8 x 6 pike left. Which is quite some space in N-scale. Width could be between 12 and 18 inches.

Looking through 102 Realistic Track Plans I saw some beauties. My choice would be #31 the L-shaped bottom of the Metro Belt & Terminal, may be a bit to urban for you. IMHO a nice mix between urban and rural. But #52 (Benedict & Wexford) and #42 (Ninigret Cove) and on page 25 the Mineola and Oyster Bay are probably closer to of the kind of railroad you are after.

Just add a cassette or a removable staging area as in #51 (the Ontabec Central). In an earlier thread you said you liked Stein's Federal Street; the original is plan #5. If you like urban I would choose for Cuyama's version of the Mid Atlantic Western(#9), or still for the #31 (MB & T).

In N-scale in the space you have (8 x 6) you can have the MB & T with a minimum 20" radius and #7 switches on the main. Why bother about a 10 inch radius? With a possible  3+  feet train length, you can have it all. And remember you have two feet left at both sides, so a pretty radius can be worked in here as well later.

Have fun, keep smiling

Paul

 

[Teamanglerx]

Stein,

With your info a 15" radius curve could work.  My overall goal is to have a "L" shaped layout (8 ft x 6ft with a 12" width in N or 10-12 ft x 8 ft with a 24" width in HO ) with a small town (4-5 buildings), a couple of residental houses, and 2-3 industries and a small communter passenger station.  Train wise I am looking at 2-3 locos for freight (GP-38 or other 4 axle locos) and a passenger train.  Time: Modern.  I would also like to possibly have a coal operated power plant on the short end of the "L" but if I can't get it to fit I can add that on later.  I have looked at all of your layout ideas on other threads (and I think you are a great layout designer) and have gotten several ideas.  My main concern is having a mainline "connection" on each end for future expansion and having some sort of staging.  I plan on making a quick drawing later today of a general idea of what I am looking for.   

 

[steinjr]

Teamanglerx

I would dare not mangler a good cup of tea.  That would be uncivilized.....

 LOL :-) 

Paulus, your first drawing clears up the 11" radi turn in a 12" shelf space.  This is an option I am looking at.  I know that in N scale most passenger cars can run on a 11" radi.  They are not the prettiest looking trains when running around a corner in that radi but I am planning on keep the 90 degree turns to a mininium. 

 Well, in my drawing the curve radii for going around the corners are respectively 15" radius and 20" radius. You don't have to go all the way down to 11". Unless you want to for scenic effect, of course.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[Teamanglerx]

I would dare not mangler a good cup of tea.  That would be uncivilized.....

One of my main other hobbies is fly fishing, hence the name.

Paulus, your first drawing clears up the 11" radi turn in a 12" shelf space.  This is an option I am looking at.  I know that in N scale most passenger cars can run on a 11" radi.  They are not the prettiest looking trains when running around a corner in that radi but I am planning on keep the 90 degree turns to a mininium. 

 

 

[steinjr]

Paulus Jas

Hi Tea,

Teamanglerx

The problem with the N 1 foot width is I would like to use 11" radi curves to accomadate passenger trains (I don't think a 9 3/4" would work unless someone know otherwise). 

 

I don't understand the question. 

 

 You know, I was puzzled by that comment of Teamanglerx too (btw - is is Tea Mangler X, or Team Angler X - hopefully the OP is an avid fisherman, not someone who ruins perfectly good tea in some horrible way :-).

 Anyways - the comment makes little sense to me - you easily can do both 11" radius and much bigger radius curves on a  12" deep shelf in N scale, and you can't do a 180 degree turnback loop on a 12" deep shelf either using 9 3/4" radius nor 11" radius.

 Illustrations:

 

 

 

Trick of course is that as long as the center of the circle doesn't need to be on the shelf, you can do fairly large radius curves on a shelf layout.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

 

 

[Paulus Jas]

Hi Tea,

Teamanglerx

The problem with the N 1 foot width is I would like to use 11" radi curves to accomadate passenger trains (I don't think a 9 3/4" would work unless someone know otherwise). 

 

I don't understand the question. 

Anyhow your radius is very tight; a 1:2 ratio (length of a coach : min radius) is leading to a 13" radius in N-scale. A 1:3 ratio would be more appropriate.  So for a 180 degree turn you will need at least 30" wide shelf. If there is no 180 degree turn involved, the question doesn't make sense.

Unless you shelf becomes part of a future blob and you want to know about the mimimum radii applied in N and HO. So maybe the following list can help you:

A 1:2 ratio is pushing against the technical limits.

A 1:3 ratio is the compromise most of us have to live with.

A 1:4 ratio is making your cars (or coaches) looking great.

A 1:5 ratio is needed for easy coupling, without manual assistance.

In HO my minimum ratio would be 1:2.5 and in N-scale 1:3. This means a 30" radius in HO and a 20" radius in N (give and take an inch), if you intend to use long "modern" almost 90 feet long coaches.

You are using freight only branchline radii on a 50's layout. Alas some modern freight cars are 90 feeters too.

Paul

[Teamanglerx]

The reason I asked the question is that I am planning a new layout.  It will be a small shelf type for now.  In a few years we will be getting a larger house so would like to make it so I can add on to it.  I current model in N scale but I like some of the detail in HO.  I was figuring on a 2 foot wide shelf in HO or a 1 foot wide shelf in N.  The problem with the N 1 foot width is I would like to use 11" radi curves to accomadate passenger trains (I don't think a 9 3/4" would work unless someone know otherwise). 

[Seamonster]

willy6

On my last layout (HO) I found that prototypical street/highway dimensions didn't work. It was because of the vehicles I put on them. I had a variety of vehicles from different manufactures( Con-Cor,Herpa,Wiking,Athearn,Atlas etc...) that were not in exact scale. I ended up making my roads to match vehicles which ended up being about 3.75" wide.

I found exactly the same thing on my N scale layout. So I did the same thing you did. So the roads are narrower than the prototype. They look right with the vehicles on them.

[accatenary]

My Rule of thumb is an 1-1/2" per lane

Below is the main street through my city at 6" wide 

[Silver Pilot]

rclanger

MisterBeasley

I'm always trying to find ways to save space on my layout.

 

I really like the result.   Selective compression.  The scene looks realistic and during some era would have been.  I will be using your measurements for my main street.  Thanks for posting the pictures.

I respectfully disagree.  The streets are too narrow, the sidewalks are too narrow.  There's no center dividing strip on the road or crosswalks.  When you 2 vehicles on the street they look cramped and crowded.  A problem far too often seen on layouts.  Same with sidewalks, by the time you model the things you expect to see on a city sidewalk - streetlights, signs, parking meters, trash cans, mail boxes etc. there's no room for someone to even walk on them.  I understand the need to use selective compression, but it can be taken too far.  As modelers we too often try to cram too much into a given space and end up with something that looks like it, be track, buildings or in this case roads.  Remember, sometimes less is more.

[rclanger]

MisterBeasley

I'm always trying to find ways to save space on my layout.

 

I really like the result.   Selective compression.  The scene looks realistic and during some era would have been.  I will be using your measurements for my main street.  Thanks for posting the pictures.

[Paulus Jas]

hi,

Silver Pilot

If you want something to look prototypical then study the prototype.

Silver Pilot

Ok, now everyone repeat after me.  "Google is my friend, Google is my friend"

Just leave google alone, open your front door and have a good look.

Overlooked by a lot of people, look at streets close to your home, try to find out how wide they are. And pay attention to the length of a block also; beware of to much selective compression. One step is about three feet; that's all you need to know.

Keep smiling, have fun

Paul 

[Silver Pilot]

 Have you tried searching for that information on the internet??  A simple search will turn up a lot of the information you're looking for.  Road width depends on the purpose of the road.  Here's al ink to a starting point.  The next for your to search for and study is striping, painting and parking spaces.  If you want something to look prototypical then study the prototype.

http://www.riversideca.gov/pworks/pdf/forms/streets/101.pdf

Ok, now everyone repeat after me.  "Google is my friend, Google is my friend"

[mobilman44]

Hi!

Obviously, the width of streets/highways varies a lot, especially when you go back to years ago.  My solution to the question was to put some HO vehicles down on paper and get them in a spacing that "looks right" for whatever type roadway I am modeling.  I measure the "looks right" spacing, and go from there.

One thing I might add.......

I model the transition era, and being 65, recall the "streets of my youth" vividly - or so I thought.   When visiting my old Chicago neighborhood or the roads in Anna (Illinois) where I spent a lot of summers, I find that they are much narrower than I remember.  

Hey, for what its worth!

Mobilman44

[MisterBeasley]

I'm always trying to find ways to save space on my layout.  I've pretty much eliminated on-street parking, much to the chagrin of the good people of Moose Bay.  But, why take your car when there's so much good public transit?

This is downtown.  Lonely Street, running foreground to background in this shot, is 3 inches wide, with sidewalks about an inch or so:

The cross street, Penny Lane, is a rediculously narrow 2 1/2 inches.  The sidewalks are only half an inch.

Looking at the same intersection from both angles, you can see what the tight, narrow street does for the scene.  It greatly enhances the "urban canyon" look, even with only 2 to 4 story structures.

[rogerhensley]

Normal 0

Here in Anderson Indiana, each lane was about 12 feet wide. It was dependent upon the type of roadway (main street, residential or back country road, etc) but most business streets and highways were built at about 12 feet per lane. Earlier, in the twenties, roads were only about 20 feet wide total, so, if the portion of the town you wish to model was built in that era, a 20 foot roadway is fine.

If each lane were 10 feet wide, that would be 1 and 3/8s inch. So a two lane street would be 2 and 3/4 inches. 10 feet is what I use for the lanes of my city streets. Modern hiway lanes would be wider. Parking lanes would have been more narrow in the 50s, say 8 or 8 1/2 feet.

As a guide in HO:

                         8' = 1 1/8

                        10' = 1 3/8

                        12' = 1 5/8

                        15' = 2 1/16

                        20' = 2 3/4

                        25' = 3 7/16

 

Around here, little has changed in the city streets since the late 40s. A few sidewalks have been removed to widen the lanes and a few streets have had major work done on them to add additional lanes, but the width still stands at about 10 to 12 feet per lane and most side streets are really about three lanes wide total. Small towns would have been this way as well. Some of the main streets in small towns actually had wider streets and also used angle parking.

Country lanes and county roads were much narrower back then, in some cases no more than 12 or 13 feet total. If you met a farm truck you were in big trouble.  Part of the problem with all of this is that the width of streets and roads vary according to where you are and what the local street and hiway departments did. This is why there are no set widths for streets in any scale. You can calculate what you need according to your area and era always keeping in mind what looks good to you. Rather than calculate 3.5 mm equal 1 foot, I just used a scale rule and a regular ruler to change the actual scale feet into inches so the figures are not exact, but are very close. I highly recommend a scale rule. The one I have is a 'General' no. 1251. It's been well worth the money. 

Oh, one other thing, sidewalks in the business district were about 10 feet wide.

[dante]

Assuming 2-12' traffic lanes, 2-5' sidewalks with curbs and 2-10' wide parallel parking strips, you have to provide for a width of 54'.  That calculates as 7-7/16" in HO.  Old streets might have lanes as narrow as 10' and parking strips of 8'.  That would reduce the width to 46' and 6-3/8" in HO. 

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Teamanglerx

Doing some layout planning and was wondering if anyone knew what the width of a two lane city street with a side walk and paraell parking was in HO scale off the top of their heads.  I know in N scale it is about 3".

2 traffic lanes  - 14' each

2 parking lanes - 6' each

total curb to crub 40' or 5.5" in HO

sidewalks 4'-6' each side or about 3/4" on each side in HO

total road and sidewalks - 7" in HO

 

Sheldon

[willy6]

On my last layout (HO) I found that prototypical street/highway dimensions didn't work. It was because of the vehicles I put on them. I had a variety of vehicles from different manufactures( Con-Cor,Herpa,Wiking,Athearn,Atlas etc...) that were not in exact scale. I ended up making my roads to match vehicles which ended up being about 3.75" wide.

[Teamanglerx]

Doing some layout planning and was wondering if anyone knew what the width of a two lane city street with a side walk and paraell parking was in HO scale off the top of their heads.  I know in N scale it is about 3".