Hi Kirtdog,
kirtdogi do want to have some long trains running. I was set on the double mainline but I don't know if that is a necessity even though i would prefer it.
Problem is you have to take a decission sooner or later. A double track mainline is great if you want to run two long trains at the same time unattended. But running round and round again will be a bit boring after time. And then other aspects are coming in, switching local industries, servicing your engines, breaking up your train into blocks with several destinations (classification) or just setting out or picking up a block of cars. From that moment on your double track continuous run is becoming a problem. Every 10 seconds you have to clear the main for the next train. Here staging is coming in handy (I prefer concieled staging). Adding staging later is not the easy way to go, so you will have even more decissions to take.
Finding a very big place to switch those very long trains is problem too. Long train are also dwarfing your layout. I did some math and some doodling; 6 feet would be my max. train length. Staging and storage are two different issues. If you want a big part of your pike for showing off all the equipment you have; is up to you; May be you can exhibit your stuff on a different way and use your layout space for more railroady tasks.
A single track line becomes fun operationaly when you have decent number?? of passing tracks. Single track keeps the number and speed of trains down; with more relaxed switching as a result. Finding proper train length asks some good thinking here as well. Pelle Soeborg has only one very long passing siding, so he can stage an occasional meeting between two long trains. After the meet the trains are going back into underground staging, so he has all the time to do some switching before the next train appears. If you want to run more trains at the same time, more passing sidings are required and train length will become a design issue.
Two must reads for you based on your post -
http://www.chipengelmann.com/trains/Beginner/BeginnersGuide01.html
And this one
http://layoutvision.com/id28.html
Have fun, keep smiling
Paul
Thanks so much stein!!! that is pretty much what I am trying to do. I guess I just don't have everything figured out in my head. i do want to have some long trains running. I was set on the double mainline but I don't know if that is a necessity even though i would prefer it. Your generic drawing has helped me get more of an idea of how i would like it to run. One thing I definitely want is a decent size yard that the mains either run through or around or both. Not sure how practical that is but it is what is in my head.
I want to say thanks to all who have replied also...I appreciate all of the help and input. Keep it coming. Now...back to reading the link from stein :)
odaveSo I guess for a "running" themed layout of no specific era, I would say: Put some more thought into the scenes you want to watch the trains running through, then figure out where you'd like the scenes to go. Pick a minimum mainline curve radius that will accommodate the largest locomotives and rolling stock. I don't know the N scale numbers, but I've heard 15"-18" mentioned. Try to run your tracks at an angle to the front edge of the benchwork. This will give more depth to the scene and avoid a toylike look. Use long, broad curves instead of long straights for better appearance.
So I guess for a "running" themed layout of no specific era, I would say:
To follow up on Dave's comments - here is e..g a draft of layout that is going for a longish mainline through multiple not too deep scenes, where an engineer will follow his train around the layout.
This is extremely generic - no attempts at adding *specific* scenes - just indicating that you could possibly do 6-8 scenes in a room your size, without having the scenes interfere too badly with each other visually, and having a mainline run of some 70+ feet.
In comparison, if you run trains of two engines and 15 89-foot cars, a train would about 9 feet long (very rough estimate, my math may be off a bit).
Core thing to remember about benchwork is that a human operator is not in 1:160 scale, so he or she will need aisles of 24-36" (depending on whether several people will be running on the layout at the same time), and he or she would have a comfortable reach of about 20-24" for a layout at chest height.
Now - if you imagine something roughly like this - what scenes would you include ? What would you want your engineer to do in each scene ?
Smile, Stein
I agree and am definitely taking the advice of the experienced modelers here
This can be a tough crowd - but in my experience - it is solid advice from experienced people, so hard as it is to take sometimes - it will benefit you GREATLY if you do... I know I did.... :) (and still am...)
My Build Thread: https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/185298.aspx
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this is one of the things I would like to do or at least something similar
You are correct...the yard is primarily for storage of cars. something like this on a smaller scale.
I also considered an engine repair facility by the yard area.
[edit: lots of replies while I was typing this, so some of the below is redundant]
Thanks for stating some of your ideas. It will help move the conversation forward and tease out more of your thoughts.
It is generally thought best nowadays to develop the track plan first, then build the benchwork to suit it. But it sounds like you're not too attached to what's already been built, and it can be modified as necessary.
kirtdogThis is not a layout that is modeling anything. I like to run trains.
There's nothing wrong with having a layout for which the primary focus is running trains. Just be aware that some people get tired of watching trains run around a loop after a while. If you think you might be one of those people, I would say that you should put some more thought into what other aspects of railroading will keep your interest up.
kirtdogI definitely want...a large yard
If the layout will be primarily for running trains, I'm guessing that the yard will be used primarily to store cars to run. You will make up trains from the stored cars on an Arrival/Departure track or two, run them around the layout, then pull them into the yard to break them down when you're done. I state this because knowing the yard's purpose will drive its design.
Again, nothing wrong with that approach if you think it will make you happy and keep you interested.
kirtdogI don't have a specific era for this layout...an area where containers are placed on the rail cars.
You mention containers, so that kinda bumps your era up to modern-ish (as well as adds a little switching as opposed to just running trains).
There's also nothing wrong with running a multi-era layout, if you think that's what will give you the most enjoyment.
But I would really encourage you to take the time to read through the LDSIG site Stein mentioned above. More thought and consideration is not a bad thing, until you get into analysis paralysis, and you're nowhere near that yet, IMHO.
Good luck!
hi,
I second the opinion of Uhlrich, about Stein being one of best for helping you.
If you are going to change the benchwork anyhow, you could also give some thoughts to layout heigth. I am not that sure, but my impression is your bench is built a bit low. (a 50" heigth at least would be nice)
If you like to run trains, it is translated by me into : you want a as long as possible mainline. TMHO this can easily lead to a complete redo of your bench, because a peninsula in the centre of the room would be a great asset; better redo it now then after track and scenery are built.
Beside study'ing the side, you can also dig into trackplan books. The 102 Realistic Track Plans, and the trackplans on the MRR database must have a couple plans you fancy. Not the size is important, it is the feeling they give you. And even telling which plans you do not like at all can help us to get an idea.
For instance, what do you think about Bob Smaus' SP layout (in the database) or Dick Rotto's Raton Pass in Great Model Railroads 2010? Or scenes as on the Mid Atlantic Western in 102 RTP # 9 or a double track version of Pelle Soeborg's UP (102 RTP # 93)?
BTW do you have any ideas about staging and how to apply it?
have fun, keep smiling
I am listening and am now reading the link again:) Thanks all....
Kirtdog - you are one lucky guy, do you know this?
Stein is one of the most competent layout planners that I have ever met in the world of the internet. He is not only competent, but also helpful and patient.
If you decide to listen to what he tells you and you are prepared to adopt his advice, the planning of your layout will be a fascinating adventure and the track plan you get out of this will allow you to build a layout that gives you many years of joy and entertainment.
All you need is to listen carefully and act accordingly!
kirtdogto anwer all of the questions
Except the most important - what are you trying to accomplish ?
You are saying "not modeling anything" and "I don't have a specific era". And yet you know that you want a double mainline, a "large yard" and a container terminal.
Okay - they you are actually modeling an era and a location - and that era is fairly modern. We are not talking about a narrow gauge logging line or an interurban here.
You are saying "I like to run trains".
Does that mean that you do not want to have a lot of switching of local industries - you want to watch longish container trains pass through the landscape?
Does it e.g. mean that you do not want or plan passenger traffic?
Forget about the XtrakCad program. You are not ready for that yet by a wide margin. That is part of "how". You are still at "what" and "why".
Try to read the link I gave you one more time, And then think a little more about what you want and what you don't want, and try to describe again what kind of train traffic you envision for your imaginary location.
some pics of the room as it stands now. I think I am going to pull up the thin ply and use risers to run the subroadbed that will be cut out of ply. I can add or remove benchwork as necessary.
This shows the door opening area. I still need to build this part. Depending on the plan, I may just leave that open and build out far enough so the trains can turn around.
ok...to anwer all of the questions. This is N-scale. The room is 11 x 19 at its longest point. I was planning on having a continuous loop around the room by building a liftout or duckunder in the door area. That is subject to change depending on what kind of trackplan I come up with. I definitely want a double mainline and a large yard. The layout will be dcc controlled with an NCE Powercab.This is not a layout that is modeling anything. I like to run trains. As far as era, I don't have a specific era for this layout. Once I get track layed, scenery will be placed on the entire layout. As I said in my initial post, I am just learning how to use the xtrkcad program. What you saw is similar to a section of a large layout that is located very close to my home. I would post a pic, but I haven't asked the owners permission. His layout was featured on the cover of n scale magazine.Anyway, What i was trying to draw up in the plan that i attached was an area where containers are placed on the rail cars. You can see where the trains can come off of the main and into that area to pick up cars. The open areas between the tracks will have trailers and containers waiting to be loaded. As I said, I am still learning the program and working with the flextrack can be a little confusing.
Now you have a basic idea of what I am trying to do...be gentle..:) In all seriousness, I appreciate any comment that you leave. It will help to make a better layout.. Thanks in advance.
Wow, Tough crowd
I'm in a similar situation. I have my benchwork built, but don't have a definitive trackplan. My benchwork is around-the-wall, but with a "J" shaped peninsula extending into the center of the room. I would suggest that you consider extending a peninsula out from the wall opposite the door to fully utilize the space in the center of the room. From the diagram, I'd say you could make it 4 feet wide (24" on either side of a scenery divider) and extend it out 4 1/2 to 5 feet from the existing benchwork. This would still give you a 30" to 36" wide aisle at the end of it.
I agree with the others, you need to provide more info. about your goals etc.
Bob
i would comment but im getting help from someone designing my trackplan. all i can say is answer the questions that have been supplied to you then go from there. once these guys know kind of what your intentions are they will give you all the help and advice you want. cant wait to see what you come up with.
kirtdog , Im in the same boat as you ,got the bench work some what of a plan but not refined in to a solid plan...... any way are talking ho or n scale looks like n scale or real tite curves .....just write down what you think you want to do and give you scale,what type equipment you want to run and maybe time frame ,and these guys will fix you write up with some Ideas
kirtdogAny input or suggestions, plans, criticism, etc. is welcome
Layout Planning Primer from LDSIG (Layout Design Special Interest Group):
http://macrodyn.com/ldsig/wiki/index.php?title=Category:Primer#General_layout_planning_principles
First order of the day is to figure out what your are trying to create, and why you want this, before you dig too deeply into how.
Or in other words - first you define your goal, then you look for how to get there. If neither you nor we know what your goal is, it is pretty hard to tell you in what direction you should go.
There is a few differences in what constitutes a sensible track plan and scenery plan for e.g:: - a civil war layout in Atlanta, Georgia - a 1880 western mining town - a rural Maine 2-footer - a big union passenger station with lots of long passenger trains arriving and departing - an interurban in Indiana - switching a big steel mill in Pennsylvania - coal trains heading from the Appalachians to the Virginia Tidewater ports - Switching urban warehouses in Brooklyn - A BNSF double stack container train on the transcon from LA to Chicago - A rural modern shortline in upstate Washington State
And so on and so forth.
Define your goals - describe your dreams and visions. Then start thinking about a track plan.
Smile,Stein
Is that supposed to represent a double track main line running through an industrial area? Seems very square & parallel to the benchwork to me.
What time period are we talking here? What sort of a railroad are you going for?
I won't dare exit my cave/hole to comment because, at at this point, the track arrangements make little sense. I am clueless regarding the goals of your railroad, let alone the purpose of most of the track you've diagrammed.
Mark
I have began designing my first large layout. Any input or suggestions, plans, criticism, etc. is welcome.It is an 11x19 room. I already have most of the benchwork built around the wall but am very flexible with the benchwork and can easily add or remove as necessary. I am slowly figuring out xtrakcad. The benchwork of the layout is shown. Here is what I have so far.