NEED HELP ON LAYOUT PLANS FOR HO TRAIN

[Anonymous]

Hi
I am new at this train thing and it feels like it will be alot of fun..well i just got started and have a few hundred allready tied up into just the trains and buildings , i am going for a city look from the 50's and my Problem is how do you make the tunnels and roads and grass or where can i get the roads and grass ..i have been told you make your own hills and tunnels and i do not know the first things of how to do so ...IF anyone can tell me how and where to get the stuff to do so please send me an email to [e-mail] i am doing this all for my son and would like him to have something special that he can spend time at...and i need help on the layout ....thanks Rick

[Anonymous]

Hi Rick,

Welcome! You have picked a great hobby. One suggestion though - if your son is old enough - get him involved from the beginning. My daughter is 2 1/2 and loves to come down to the basement to watch the trains run. I got her a few old junker locos and box cars, which she likes to "paint" with a dry brush, and she also likes to de-construct trees, and blow the wooden steam whistles.

If you are really new to this, one approach I would recommend is to look at the Woodland Scenics stuff. They have all sorts of landscaping materials and so on. Their "large" kits are a pretty good deal - they have a few different levels, but basically you can get all the stuff you need to landscape a 4x8 layout in one box. Materials for rocks, trees, roads, grass, water, and so on. The site is http://www.woodlandscenics.com/ .

The internet is full of all sorts of information, and forums like this are a good place to get some information. Just bear in mind that there is often more than one right way to do any one thing!!

One last suggestion - if there is a local club in your area, you might want to find out if you can get some help, or attend a clinic or two on the part of layout building that is presenting a challenge!

Good luck - and don't be afraid to ask questions!

Andrew

[cwclark]

howdy!..and welcome to the greatest hobby in the world...you've asked a lot of questions and here are a few answers...first..get lots of books on the subject..kalmbach publications is loaded with books on the hobby....you'll need a scale ruler and an NMRA track gauge too..the track gauge is great..it will help you determine the places your train will go without hitting walls, tunnel portals, ect....mountains: there are a lot of ways to do mountains but the most popular are , build a cardboard shell from strips of cardboard that are glued, stapled, or taped together to make a skelton frame... cut newspaper or paper towels into 1" - 3" strips, dip them in plaster, and gently lay them across the cardboard mountain skelton until the mountain is covered with the strips...paint the entire thing white, spray on some indian ink in the shadow areas of the mountain and then stain, (not paint) the mountains with earth tones of acrylic paint in a 50 paint / 50 water mixture...western scenes use raw siennas, umbers, red iron oxides and eastern colors use blacks, whites, grays, and tans... start with the lighter colors at the top of the mountain and blend them into the mountain with the darker colors towards the bottom...another technique is to use insulating foam that comes in sheets...glue the sheets together, take a knife and carve out the overhangs, depressions, ect creating a rock face into the foam... paint it white, and continue with the process from the above mentioned...tunnels are the hardest thing to do...try to do one at a straight section of track..(the trains swing out on curved track and they won't go thru the tunnel without hitting the sides) if you buy commercially made tunnel portals...I make my own with a jig, small strips of wood and thin cardboard..I make a frame with the wood and the arch with thin cardboard and pour plaster layden with gauze into the jig mold..let it dry and remove the jig...roads: I make my roads out of thin plaster, cardstock, or sheet styrene plastic...the last thing you mentioned is landscaping...go with the woodland scenics..it's great stuff!..it comes in foilage, turf, poly fiber and all kinds of other materials and color varieties to make great trees, bushes, and grass....Chuck

[Anonymous]

Masonjar & Cwclark Thankyou you both somuch for all the great info..Masonjar my son just turned 2 years old two days ago and i have had him into trains for about a year now he had a Battery operated one that he played with all the time as soon as he comes home he always went right for it...Then we just moved into a new home to us , and i have a double car garage NOW. it is 24ft wide by 24 but there in the back of the garage i have a 12ft by 16ft area to build a train..i allready bought 4 sheets of plywood and have them 36 inches from the floor In a Big U Shape , i mounted them onto the wall with L- Brackets and used 2 by 2 for legs that i took and leaned them from the outside top into the wall like at a 45 degree angle.. so now you know what i am working with a 128 sq ft of space.... i have bought alot of HO scale buildings on ebay NEW ones i believe a total of 32 of them and i have 10 different houses and 13 different city buildings and 9 different train buildings like stations and repair and so on like that what i have in mind is that on the back wall which is 16 feet long by the 4 feet is use that space for the city and on the two sides use one side for a train yard and stuff like that and on the other side do alittle country scene there...NOT unless you know of Better ideals that would be better because i just right now have the plywood up and nothing else done because i am not sure where to start and how to lay it all out ...CWCLARK thankyou somuch on the info of how to make mountians and tunnels and roads , now this weekend i am going to try to make one and see how it comes out ,, the one thing i think i will have a problem with is the painting of them because i have never been good at art or designing but building it i think i can do..i have read alot up on here about weathering the buildings to make them look old and i want to try that to but where do you get the INK from? i bought a large lot of train cars on ebay and alltogether i have 17 cars and 3 engines to start with which they were not the high cost ones but its a start for now i believe i paid 175 for the lot and the two trains that i want to run is one passenger train and other but not sure how to lay that all out either....if anyone has any layout plans for the layout that i am doing please help...thankyou somuch everyone for your help...i am so excited about doing this all for my son , he is my pride and joy ..i finally got what i wanted in life with him and it only took me 34 years to get that ...believe me i started to give up on having a child after i hit the age of 30 because its hard finding the right person out there and now i have him and a wonderful wife that enjoys trains to..and better yet i have another child on the way thats due in late july so i need to get this all done before that time because after IT comes i wont have that much time then to build but only to play.....Rick

[Anonymous]

Rick...

You certainly get full marks for enthusiam!! WOW...

I would suggest that you take a quick look for some planning books and so on, and do a bit of doodling with a track plan. Reaching across the full 4 feet of your shelf will be a bit difficult, for building stuff, and to rerail your trains if there is an accident. However, the advantage is that you can create a return within the 4 foot width (i.e. by using a 22" radius 1/2 circle).

I would suggest that you take stock of your current buildings and so on, and then come up with a track plan and get the benchwork and trackwork installed and perfect because this is what makes running the trains enjoyable, but it takes a lot of time and care. Once that is done (and the second child has arrived) you can maybe find a few spare minutes here and there to work on a new building, or make some trees, or whatever, but you won't get the big chunk of time you need for trackwork.

If you already have a plan in mind, can you post it somewhere so we can see it? It sounds like you have a very similar room to me - I have a workshop that is 26x26 on the back of my double garage. Unfortunately, it is currently full of junk... But hopefully that is where the trains will go eventually. Right now, they're in the basement.

Andrew

[nfmisso]

Rick;

Another place for some ideas is http://www.atlasrr.com/ ; click onf the LAYOUTS tab, then HO in the middle fo the screen.

[cwclark]

yes! please do a track plan before you start!...one thing we do is "cookie cut" the plywood...it is called the sub road bed...if you just lay sheets of plywood across the benchwork and nail the track to it, that's what you are going to get is a flat layout...i would suggest that you build an L girder or a grid bench before you lay the plywood..that way you can put in 1" x 4" riasers so that the layout is not flat..i would suggest that you go up a few inches to give the layout some definition...1" for every 96" of track is a 1% grade and 2" for every 96" of track is a 2% grade...i wouldn't go over a 2% grade unless you are running really short trains...anyway...back to the plywood...if you cut the plywood in 2" strips it will be a defined roadbed rather than just laying the track on the plywood...you might want to invest in some cork roadbed or homasote also to futher enhance the look of a roadbed...cutting the plywood with a jig saw is the best way...curves can be cut if you make a giant compass...take a small board drill a hole in it at one end...measure to the other end of the board say to the radius 22"...and drill another hole..now.thru one of the holes, drive a nail in the plywood, and in the other hole, take a pencil, insert it, and make a sweeping action with the entire board marking the radius onto the plywood with the pencil..this is the center of the track and if you measure 1" on each side of the board, mark it, . cut it out with the jig saw , and you've just made your first curved sub roadbed...screw the plywood onto the raisers and use track nails to nail the cork road bed onto the curve, then lay the rail on top of that...don't worry about painting..it's more staining than anything..none of us here are true micheal angelo's and you'll do just fine....chuck...

[Anonymous]

Hi Rick,
Just a quick note to all of the other comments and suggestions. Please put in a Backdrop. Even if its just to paint the back wall a Sky Blue. With the 4' reach it will be very hard to add this later. I waited and have a 3 1/2 ' reach and it wasn't easy. Just by painting the wall 12" to 20" above your layout a Sky Blue, will add a finshed look and add realism to your layout.
Have fun, it's a Great Hobby for the Whole Family.

[cwclark]

tonight i finally finish my backdrop..had to tape and float some sheet rock to a frame behind the benchwork to hide my well water tank and the lawn sprinkler controls...a little sanding here and there a little sky blue paint and wahlaa!...it looks real.... doesn't it? ...by the way Rick ...you're gonna have all the time in the world for the hobby...you won't believe how fast those kids go from babies to adults...my kids are grown and gone now and i've always done the train thing when they were growing up, but now, i'm on my second childhood and my dream layout is about to come to pass...there will be no shortcuts, fudging, or diapers to change on this new layout...I've been working on it for three months now readying the 25' X 23' building and the trains still aren't up..it takes a lot of time to do it right but it's going to be worth it..except when the kids are gone..there's no expense that will be spared to make the ultimate layout...Chuck

[Anonymous]

Well, I'll be that bad guy here although I don't reli***he role. The space you have can house a wonderful layout, but not 4 by 8's together in a giant "U". Now before you jump off the bridge, that plywood will still come in handy. But if you proceed as you have, I promise you "reach" is going to be a real problem and as your tastes become more "sophisticated" you'll regret your decision. I know you say you have a 12 by 16 area, but it is hard for me to recommend something to you with out knowing more about the space.

For one thing, interestingly, the way you have your layout is a very tough size to design for - there's a reason you won't find designs for your 4 pieces of plywood, because those in the know wouldn't want your configuration - its actually a tough space to design a layout in.

Before you go any further, stop by your local hobby shop (LHS) and pick up a book by John Armstrong called "Track Planning for Realistic Operations." If they don't have it, you can buy over the internet or send your request into Kalmbach, they have copies of it. The good news is this book is only around $22 or something like that, not a high priced jobby. But the book I am recommending is THE BIBLE of layout planning.

I have two editions, and as Murphy's law would have it, I can only find the older edition, but the new edition has all the chapter's I'm going to recommend to you. When you are done reading this, do a copy and paste to MS word or notepad and print it out.

Chapters to pay attention:

Operating reliably through standards
Pike locations and shapes
schematics for satisfying operations

Speed read these chapters first, then you can go back and leisurely read the book another ten times if you're like the rest of us.

There are many styles of benchwork, you can use the plywood flat as your original intention was, but if you discover you'd like to do something else, one of the best woods to use is plywood ripped to length; so one 4 by 8 will give you "4" inch wide by 8 feet long lumber, ripped to length. You would get twelve 4 inches by 8 feet pieces, for example.

Right now you are really building the layout for you - nothing wrong with that- its how I got started, my son was young and I was building it for "him" but really a two year old can't really run a layout anyway. The benchwork will be to high for him. And don't build low benchwork as many dad's do then regret it latter when their 2 year old is 13 and surprisingly high.

Plan on the layout you are building taking at least two to four years to build. This amount of time may sound long to you, but anyone who has built a layout in the size of room you have will consider two years not realistic - too short.

What I suggest is tell your son you are building a layout for him and you, but it will take a "really really long time." In the interim, Brio or Thomas the Tank wooden trains and track, etc will satisfy him. This buys you time so that he can get taller and you gain more knowledge and skill. Because layouts are so demanding of skills, electrical, woodworking, artistry through scenery and backdrop, electronics, and layout planning and track work planning; you'll discover you "hit the wall" at the one skill you aren't that great at - it happens to all of us. There are lots of resources to help you out from books, video's, forum's like here, forum chats - like at www.the-gauge.com and other resources.

There are more than one forums to go to in helping you design your project - they are called layout design forums. I'm a moderator in at one at www.trainboard.com but to fair there are other excellent sources for you as well. For example, the Layout Design Special Interest Group has a good forum, but read Armstong's book before you go there, or you'll feel like a fish out of water with some of their response's and their reasons for it.

So hang tough, be prepared to make some mistakes, you'll meet new friends and you have a hobby that will take the stress off you in other areas of your life. Working with my son in the hobby was a special treat, it brought us closer together; I know I've had a relationship that has been special that other's fathers have never experienced because of this hobby.

So if you're going to build a layout, build a good one; we'll help you to get there.

[Anonymous]

RSN48
if you had my space how would you build the layout meaning the flatform to make it alot easier to get to?

[Anonymous]

Its a harder question than you realize as I don't know the configuration of your room, where the door is, what you like. The layout I would do for me is different than the layout you might like.

I would do a layout in the form of a "water wings" or the letter "G", with one end having a helix to a narrow level above it for staging and increasing the main line run. But that's me, it's what you want in terms of how to create an effective layout that is important, not what I like.

I'm guessing your thinking was roughly along these lines. If a 4 by 8 is good, then more of them is better. But the first misconception is that a 4 by 8 is good which it isn't unless you don't have any choice in terms of space, but even then if you have the room which houses the 4 by 8 to use, another configuration would be better.

The reason I can't say what I would do clearly is because I can't see the space or room (garage) you have your layout in. That's why I sent you to the book to help you vision a better layout with the space you have available. What I can tell you clearly is that having a 4 foot reach everywhere on your layout (or even more in the corners) is going to give your problems.

A layout designer who works with a client first gets a drawing of the room to be used, what space is available, what problems are in the room (doors, windows, water heaters, furnaces, political boundaries - "not there dear", etc). Next he then asks his client what he must have and what would be nice to have - "given and druthers." Then they collaborate on coming up with a plan.

The best I can do for you is tell you the best resources at hand and how to use them. In the layout design fourm where I moderate occasionally a person will come on and say - "here is the space I have why doesn't everyone in the forum help me design a layout." The problem with this is that you really don't know what the person wants - I like multi decked layouts, some don't for example. It is better if a person comes with a plan and their intentions listed, then work a better plan through. But first you have to do your homework to know what you can do with what you have.

Read what I have recommended, don't plan on putting anything up for at least the next 3 to 6 months until you have played with the area you have on paper a number of times. Usually the first plan you have isn't as good as the fifth plan you develop. The good news for you is that you had a first plan and it isn't that great so move on to develop another plan and tell us about it. I went through about 6 or 7 plans before I finally drew up something that I knew would work well for the space I have.

You will find this process of learning to be a good one and you will be happier with what you finally settle on, than throwing up the first thing that comes to mind. But you have to do your homework and learn the issues involved in layout planning - theres no way around that.

Here is a link to wet your appetite and an indication of the kind of learning you should do:

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/LDSIGprimer/TOC.html

[CBQ_Guy]

Rick,

Welcome to the hobby.

You've received some good info here. Just remember, though, you have to crawl before you can walk or run (just like your son!). So don't start too big or try to do everything you see right away or you will be overwhelmed and get frustrated.

As far as making scenery, tunnels and all, I wanted to pass along the site of an outfit that carries a lot of the supplies you can use from various suppliers. You can order a (free?) all color catalog from them at:

http://scenicexpress.com/

Go slow, experiment, ask questions. We were all there (and in a way still are) once.

[Anonymous]

Striker724, get every book about layout design you can afford and read them occasionally even after the first time. You will pick up something important each time. Don't rush and try some things out on a temporary basis as you go along. That dream pike will mean a lot more to you if you wait till your son can be a real partner/helper and the 2 of you can enjoy the simple things in the meantime. Bob T

[Anonymous]

Welcome to the hobby. I encourage you to read up on curves, types of switches, "ABC's of model operation here on the forum and also in back issues that may be availiable at a good Local Hobby Store.

Slowly and sure does the trick. Dont be thrown by the beautiful artistic layouts that took years to finish, go over your pictures and think about how you want to run your trains. Some day your child will want to run trains too. (Find a engine that can take your curves at full speed and not derail the train. Trust me he is going to go full speed ahead!)

Keep in mind that your track needs room along the edge of the table to protect the trains from hitting the floor. Some HO steam needs larger curves. Think about the biggest and highest car you have. Try to check each section to ensure that car will not hit anything. I usea 86' high cube athearn box. It looks awful on anything but if I can run those I can run anything.

Trains of 14 or so cars is a train. You certianly are going to want longer trains but not too long as the tension will hang the cars off the track to the inside of the curve.s You can slowly think about a work bench, tools and paints spare parts etc etc etc. Wear a face mask and ventilate the area when using chemicals. CA glue will bond your skin to anything and will require ER surgery to unbond. So things like this needs very good care and respect.

Eventually your child will want to copy your work at the bench, Athearn Blue Box kits will be a good starting point. maybe another 5 years or so because of the danger of small parts and tools.

There are many many things to go and do in the Hobby. Enjoy and think about what you can do with new skills as you learn them. No question is too DUMB. Never feel so stupid as not to ask it. We most likely have all been there.

Good Luck

Lee

[Anonymous]

for hills, mountains, etc. i use different techniques. for rolling hills i like to use paper towels soaked in plaster over a cardboard strip frame. but for rugged mountains and cliffs i use celuclay and rock molds on a rough styrofoam outline.

[Anonymous]

like you did I also constructed my layout on plywood. I also went with a city, and mountain affect I also wanted a water fall,deep gourge and wooden tressel.I made my tressel by using long wooden match sticks. On the edge of the gourge I made a coal tower by using styrephone meat trays. The trays seem to hold up well. and can be carved or scribed to create bricks or rocks wooden beams decking etc. they can also be used for tunnel enterance ways bridges etc. they have been very helpful to my layout. They are very easily glued using a hot gluegun. For my gourge I just cut my plywood and put a drop section. On my mountains I used different techniques mostly stiff wire screen this holds contours better and covered them with crack fill. I also used styrephone cut and heated with my lighter to form rocks. there is also a section in this site (MODELRAILROAD)step by step in makeing roads under construction . There are also alot of websites out there on different construction techniques.Good luck to you and hope you enjoy railroading.

[Anonymous]

One way to try out track plan ideas for your space is to use the free program from Atlas, www.atlasrr.com it can be tricky at first, but I have been using it to test out ideas for my layout. Just look for the RTS download button.

Jay

[Anonymous]

4 feet is deeper than I would build without access from both sides. But, I wouldn't start ripping out your existing benchwork unless you come up with a better plan. Often, strategically placed access holes will allow access for construction, detailing & dealing with derailments. It does require a bit of crawling under the layout.

My first layout, or I should say my father's last layout, was a Lionel layout in the U shape you describe, but if I remember correctly after 40 years since it was dismantled, it was about 6 feet deep. Even with access holes, there was a bit of climbing or serious leaning over the scenery on a regular basis. But we had track running along the rear of the layout against the wall. Your 36" bench height might give you close to 3' reach which might be mitigated by some removable access panels and bringing track away from the rear a little where possible.

Study track plans as suggested & good luck. Now's the time to change benchwork if you're going to do it.

Wayne

[BRJN]

I suggest you actually build TWO layouts. One is for your son, and also to practice techniques you will use of the big layout. The big layout is for you. For the little layout, use one of those 4x8s and a simple track plan.

To avoid the kids running trains off the track and onto the floor, I did this (I was 15 at the time, my little brother 4): Use wet flour or plaster strips on crumpled newspapers to build a ridge, maybe 2 inches tall and a foot long. Place the ridges along the outside edges of all curves. Glue the ridges down with Elmer's glue or whatever else you can easily clean up. If you can find a book on the Monon RR, look at the scenery through southern IN for basic forms and shapes. Don't be detail-oriented, though. The point is to give the train something to run into other than the floor. If the table is high enough, the ridge will hide the train from your kids just like a mountain hides it from you. Peek-a-boo!

[Dbcxyz123]

What?

[Anonymous]

I am building a wooden tressel for my HO layout..any ideas on best way to weather it...using with logging train...13 inches high..48 inches long

[SpaceMouse]

The best way is to paint and weather the wood before you put it together then further weather where the sun will strike it and and dirt and dust where it would get splashed.

[Anonymous]

thanks SpaceMouse ..how about some ideas on what paint or stain colors would you use

[selector]

If I can jump in, paint the wood a dark-brownish gray, let dry, and then wash it several times with a light gray to get the silvery, sun-bleached look. You want the nether sides of the wood, those not exposed to the Sun, to keep their preservative-coloured look, but the upper and side views of the wooden beams should look heavily weathered.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

If I can jump in, paint the wood a dark-brownish gray, let dry, and then wash it several times with a light gray to get the silvery, sun-bleached look. You want the nether sides of the wood, those not exposed to the Sun, to keep their preservative-coloured look, but the upper and side views of the wooden beams should look heavily weathered.

Couldn't have said it better. You might have high water marks and dirt splashed the color of dirt of the rest of your layout.

[Anonymous]

thanks ..I appreciate the input !!!!!

[Anonymous]

I have to agree with the guys who have said to draw up your plan a few times before getting stuck in to building. I am on my 15(+) plan of which only one layout has been completed to any reasonable standard (Small N Scale built fopr a toy store display at the local show. Completed in 3 weeks from request to show. Boy I needed a rest after the show). Over time you will identify what you want to achieve, continuious running (Railfanning - watching the trains go by) to shunting / switching through any combination of these extremes.
Kids are generally happy turning the train on to full power and watching it go. The suggestion of a practice layout for you and your son has some serious merrits as it
(1) gives you a place to develop your skills,
(2) lets your boy have some hands on experience ( a mate of mine was only allowed to watch his fathers trains and was hesitant when given the chance to operate mine, after a short time he was having a ball shunting cars from spot to spot, doing runarounds etc) and
(3) dads big layout will be treated with some respect when he is old enough to drive the "big trains". Purchase some cheeper (NOT Cheep and nasty) equipment for the small layout as there is likely to be some breakages over time.

If you use the cookie cutter method drscribed in an earlier post you probably won't miss the fourth board anyway.
Most of all Have Fun

Peter

[Tom Bryant_MR]

Peter has a good point #2.

I digress from topic here a bit. If any of you watch the "King of Queens" show on TV, in one episode, the star of the show was never allowed to drive his Dad's trains. Dad was a "real" fanantic about it ... loco transported in a locked steel case ... you got the idea. So, at a train show the father was demoing his layout and finally agreed to let his son (now a man) drive the loco. He drove it too fast around a curve, train derailed, caught entire layout on fire ... yeah it's a comedy but point made.

[Anonymous]

for scenery stuff, i was lookin at this new book
http://store.yahoo.com/kalmbachcatalog/12216.html

looks good, i plan on buying it as soon as i have the money