I'm a big believer that every model railroad hobbyist is free to pursue whatever style or interest gives them the most satisfaction. But when a layout charges admission, I figure it's fair game.
Yesterday we were up in Jim Thorpe, in PA's Pocono Mountains, to ride the excellent Lehigh Gorge Scenic Railway . After, I decided to check out an HO display on the second floor of an old commercial building, right next to the train station. Well, it was a dramatic demonstration of the fact that big doesn't mean good.
It features over 1000 feet of HO track . . . and no turnouts. That's right: no operating possibilities here: you got 14 continuous loops, and when they turn on the layout, playing a canned audio track, each has a train going around and around. The scenery is vaguely urban, with buildings and blocks plopped around, with no rhyme or reason. The streets are disconnected loops of slot car track. Let the pictures speak:
I was curious and wasn't expecting anything wonderful. So I got my $4 worth of curiosity satisfied. So, has anyone seen worse?
Looks pretty impressive to me, especially with all the lights on. It's a display for Joe Average and the kids to enjoy. Not every big layout that charges admission has to satisfy your demand for prototypical operation and scenic fidelity. Lighten up.
Bill
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig"
It is a "display" layout, the HO equal to a Roadside America or Choo Choo Barn. And as such, based on your three photos, does not look bad at all.
The great unwashed masses that know nothing about our hobby are often bored silly by our freight yards, prototype operations, or prototype based scenery.
Think "Christmas Garden", as as they go it looks OK to me. True, not what I'm building but people may not want to pay money to see that either.
I was very disapointed when I went to see Northlandz, but others love it, go figure.
Sheldon
Non model railroaders watching a layout want to see lots of trains go round and round. Goto any train show and look at the display layouts the clubs have there. Trains are just going round and round. You know that's not what the club layout looks like for the regular ops sessions.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
The late Bill Schopp, aka 'Layout Doctor,' strongly recommended that display layouts should have several continuous loops and that no turnouts should operate while open for public view. He even suggested that a complex junction should be undergoing maintenance (gandy dancers, MOW train, etc...) as an acceptable excuse for NOT switching trains to alternate routes.
I have seen a large (HUGE!!!) HO layout being operated exactly as the prototype actually operates. Being a railfan and an operator, I could appreciate the near-perfect rendition of the joint BNSF-UP route over Tehachapi Pass. The mundanes would take a quick glance, then move on to something else. Fortunately, in the rail museum at Balboa Park, there's lots of, "Something Else."
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - layout not intended for public viewing)
A display layout designed to attract the attention of non-modelers (and maybe some modelers as well) and possibly increase attendance at the host's function. The prime idea is to let the largest number of trains possible run at the same time for the general public to see. I've seen similar layouts in other parts of the country. If you ever get to the Marblehead Penninsula in Northern Ohio, there's a large layout of this type called Trainorama. Strickly a tourist attraction that has been operating for at least 35 years. Many areas with small vignettes, mostly in HO, and a few long runs, but with a smattering of Z, N, S, O, and I think even some old #1 and what used to be called Standard guage. Also a lot of static displays and even a small hobby shop. Visitor's book is signed by people from all over the world. At one time there was a similar but smaller layout being built in one of the museum type buildings at the Cedar Point Amusement park. In fact, the ride at Cedar Point that supposedly has the highest number of riders a season is a large narrow guage loop around the park (a very large model railroad?) called the Cedar Point and Lake Erie Railroad. Some interesting facts about the numerous fairly old, mostly coal fired, steam locos they have running can be found on Google. But, even though they haul passengers in 3 or 4 open coaches each train, they still just run trains around a loop, two at a time. Not much different, really, than the subject mrr?
Several times in the past when my Model Airplane club put on an annual mall show, we had a local MRR club put up a modular HO display, that while it did have switches, was by it's very nature of independantly constructed modules, devoted to runnng several trains at a time around a large multi-track key shaped layout, with a few action accessories thrown in. Sometime a minimum of operatrion in the form of staging was used. Actually almost tinplate, eh? Same basic thing as in this discussion. In the early 1950s, a couple local hardware stores had loops of Lionel and Marx track set up in their display windows that could be activated any time day or night, even when they were close, by touching a touch plate in the window. Same basic idea, attract public attention.
I agree with what has been said. This is not a museum piece or museum-type layout, but it is an attraction. Due to its size, it needs to be simple so that it needs little in the way of paid or volunteer 'help' or monitoring. And the intended audience, on the basis of paying or merely appreciative viewing volume, is going to be, not informed modellers, but Ma, the kids, Auntie Barb, Cousin Joe the computer geek, delivery truck driver Dan, and so on.
It is eye candy for those who like candy.
-Crandell the Candyman
It is what it is and does what it does for a basic purpose. I would have walked down to check it out.....
Very well, I stand corrected! Thanks for the perspective, everyone. It is what it is, and ain't what it ain't. So I withdraw my criticism.
Still, Choo Choo Barn & Roadside America have their certain charm in the way they present a display, with more scenery variety.
Northlandz is a special case, you got that right. More of a model world that happens to have trains running through it, than a train layout as such.
Northlandz can best be described as a model railroading semi controlled disaster there is nothing that even resembles prototypical operation or even armature operation but it draws people in like fly's to honey (and notice I am being nice here) but every person I have spoken to around here who knows I am into model trains or if it comes up in conversation like it did last week at a neighborhood BBQ people ask have you been to Northlandz oh you have to take your son he'll love it. Thats who it appeals to as many of the display layouts do. I wouldn't go as far as calling them the great unwashed but I did get a chuckle out of that comment. We go to layout like that one and study the heck out of them, first off it's part of our DNA, maybe we'll pick up an idea or see something cool we might want to model but when we realize what it is we kind of back off on the enthusiasm and maybe get a little critical. I heard Tony Koester once tell a story about visiting a guys layout he had been corresponding with along with a couple of friends. It turned out to be a bowl of spaghetti on a couple of pieces of plywood or something along those lines. After they left the layout he asked his friends what they got out of the layout and the response was a couple of snickers and laughs. His response and I am para phrasing well thats your own fault you can always learn something from looking at other peoples layouts you jsut didn't choose to look for it.
There is always something of value in every layout no matter how big or how small. Heck I would be impressed that they could run a lot of trains that long without any derailments a big time goal for me. Your criticism wasn't wrong, everyone has the right to their opinion especially if people are charging you to look at their stuff, but I think it was just maybe taken out of context and perhaps you just didn't look in the right places.
What area of philly are ya philly bill?
Nothing wrong with large layouts not being prototypical. If a kid can see it and have his or her spark lit by it, it's great.
Springfield PA
Phoebe Vet Non model railroaders watching a layout want to see lots of trains go round and round. Goto any train show and look at the display layouts the clubs have there. Trains are just going round and round. You know that's not what the club layout looks like for the regular ops sessions.
I've never seen a model railroad club layout with anything beginning to represent operations. All that's seen are members who have created their individual trains with 0-5-0s and operate them round and round. My impression is that club members just want to run (not operate) their own trains
Mark
There is a difference between display model railroads as well:
Loxx in Berlin
Miniatur Wunderland Hamburg (MiWuHa)
Big displays with prototype looks and very much happening.
But the cost of building and operating those? Humongous!
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
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markpierceI've never seen a model railroad club layout with anything beginning to represent operations. All that's seen are members who have created their individual trains with 0-5-0s and operate them round and round. My impression is that club members just want to run (not operate) their own trains
Sorry your experiances are so limited. I know lots of clubs and round robin groups with well run prototype operation sessions of both timetable and trainorder styles of operation.
Hi!
Hey, the layout looks pretty impressive to me! Its obviously built for display, and I suspect the audience is mainly folks that do not have MR as a hobby. IMHO, this layout is built to run trains, and to show them and the structures off to the general public. One other point, it is probably a lot cheaper (labor wise) to have trains running a set route than have an operator(s) running each train and doing car set outs and pick ups, holding up in passing sidings, and the like.
I guess what I am saying is that those of us with layouts often have a different purpose in mind for the end result. To some its to facilitate prototype operations, to others to run trains on various closed loops, to others to show off rolling stock & structures, etc., etc. Of course many of us have a combination of the above in mind, and that's just great!
FWIW, enjoy the layout, and see what you can learn from it.
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I've got to disagree with the assertion that clubs just want to run trains. At train shows, sure, that's what they do, and the clubs that do little more than attend train shows may in fact do just that. Most of the clubs I've seen outside of train shows want to operate -- some of them so much so that it can be very intimidating to attend an operating session for fear of doing something aprototypical.
But I have to agree that there is a vast difference between a layout that's intended for commercial -- or even informational -- display, and one that's intended for use / operation. If you have only peripheral interest in railroading, would you REALLY find watching a switcher take an hour or so to assemble a train at 2-3 mph fascinating? You might find it interesting to actually DO it.... but can you imagine the chaos that would result trying to let people operate one of these huge commecial layouts? You can control access to your own layout, and if someone insists on treating your trains like slot cars, you can throw them out, or at least never invite them back. Not so easy to do that with a paying customer.
One of my favorite places to visit is a local pizza place. A local artist -- Steve Cryan -- maintains two layouts (actually one, because they're connected by a long run of track along a beam at the back) in the restaurant. They're beautifully done (Steve's craftsmanship and attention to detail are incredible), but totally unrealistic. Planes through barn roofs, dinosaurs, the Stay-Puff marshmallow man, all kinds of silly vignettes, and two or three trains endlessly circling..... Nope, I wouldn't want it for MY layout, but it's great to go look at every so often. When I go to see "display" layouts -- whether they charge admission or are part of something else -- or look at the club offerings at train shows, I'm looking at the level of craftsmanship and detail (not "realism") and not the operating potential. Personally, I think it's fun at train shows to look at the different ability levels evident on the different modules of a club's layout.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
I don't have a problem with continuous run operation when the railroad is an exhibit, but it seems to me that the creators of that railroad might have better served the visiting population if it was an educational exhibit about the kinds of trains and industries that existed in the area of Jim Thorpe (was Mauch Chunk), PA. There is a whole lot of RR and coal mining history there, and to provide only a gee-whiz exhibit with the same superficiality as Northlandz is doing the intelligence of the "great unwashed" a disservice. After all, the town wouldn't have been there at all, if not for the LV, CNJ, the mines, etc.
I am planning a trip to the LV Scenic Gorge RR (the 1:1 scale RR) and will probably not bother spending any $ on this layout. Thanks for the tip-off!
From what I've seen of this type of layout, that would not be practical. Except for Train-O-Rama,I have seen little of no contact between the operators and the public. In fact, several of these exhibits have a glass wall between the trains and the viewing public. Even at the displays and shows I've seen, few of the people ask questios beyond things like "How much did something like this cost?" or "I've got some trains (from when I was a kid!) (For my kids!)(I set up at Christmas!). They rarely spend the time to get any kind of history lesson. Having spent many hours at my (Model Airplane, sorry) club's mall shows, I have ususally found maybe 4 or 5 people will get into any serious discussion in a 12 hour day.
And, while this statement might get some people a bit upset, I've over the years found that only model ship builders are more stand-offish and hard to talk to, either at mall shows, or at club open houses, than model railroaders.
And I am a model railroader, model boat builder/sailor, and model airplane builder/flyer.
HamltnblueWhat area of philly are ya philly bill?
Work downtown, live just north of the city in Cheltenham township. There's a decent local club layout, the Chelten Hills group. I keep telling myself I oughta join. Are you in the Delco Springfield, or Bucks?
Robt. LivingstonI am planning a trip to the LV Scenic Gorge RR (the 1:1 scale RR) and will probably not bother spending any $ on this layout. Thanks for the tip-off!
You'll enjoy the RR. It's $12, which is not bad, for the regular cars, about an hour ride out and back. They usually run diesel power, but there's a schedule on their website for special trains. Do check ahead of time, they don't run all weekdays. The restored train station has a good information center and there's plenty of other worthwhile attractions in the area.
Also of interest, there's a group devoted to the old switchback gravity railway, with a dream of getting that back in operation. Probably a long way from reality, but what a concept!
I love the glowing buildings in the foreground of the third picture. Now, I know the reason behind painting the insides of buildings with an opaque color (I prime mine, then paint a light color).
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
While I agree this layout doesn't have any prototypical operational possibility I have to disagree that there's no opertion at all. Seems it's built for 100% operational reliability as in running unattended for 8-10 hours without stalls or derailments. Can your layout do that? I know mine can't. Not every model railroader wants to be an engineer.
Obviously not built for play value but instead for entertainment by animation. And the slot car tracks point to more animation even if they're not powered atthis time. Someone took the time to blend the track into the scenery for a reason and aside from the scale difference there's no reason not to. Minatur Wunderland did it, why can't this guy? A DCC system, some block detection and N scale decoders could bring city traffic to life.
Overall I find it pleasing to look at, the scenery looks ok and I'm sure there are lot's of folks who enjoy watching it
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction
There is definitely a place in the universe for this type of layout. Think of it as a permanent N trak display. The day/night lighting is always a cool feature for the uninitiated, (and me too, I love that stuff!) And the simplified track plan allows for bulletproof train running. It looks like the complexity is in the city scape, which a scenery and structure guy like me could spend hours studying the details, with the trains being a side show.
As for club layouts, a really good club layout is designed for operations for the members, and for running for the public. At the Delmarva Club in Delmar, Delaware (celebrating 25 years this year!) we have 4 major operating layouts, in N, O 3 rail, HO and tinplate. The HO is the best, because it provides a realistic operating platform for our monthly ops sessions, but by throwing a couple of switches to close a loop, it also can run roundy roundy during our open houses. Typically the ops sessions get manned by 15 to 20 crew, and it's the most active part of the club.
Meanwhile, our N scale rig, which was once set up for interesting operations, was gutted to become a glorified circle, with the result being there's only a couple of members left who still fool with it.
The key is to be interesting enough for the public to want to see it, and engaging enough to keep the membership involved.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
HA! This one doesn't come close to Northlandz for poor quality.
Northlandz is a thrown-together, sloppy, out-of-the-box dipslay intended for the one and only purpose of being able to claim it is huge.
The one you're showing at least looks like some effort wa smade to make it look good.
Can there be such a thing as a bad layout?
Each layout serves some kind of purpose, be it a home layout, a club layout, or a commercial display layout. Commercial layouts just want to attract people and thus, to make money. Some of them are very elaborate, some of them kind of crude. Which ever way they are, all of them attract people to the hobby - and that´s a good thing!
Whether you would like to spend a buck or two to see it, is your own decision!
ruderunner Seems it's built for 100% operational reliability as in running unattended for 8-10 hours without stalls or derailments. Can your layout do that? I know mine can't. Not every model railroader wants to be an engineer. [...] Overall I find it pleasing to look at, the scenery looks ok and I'm sure there are lot's of folks who enjoy watching it
Seems it's built for 100% operational reliability as in running unattended for 8-10 hours without stalls or derailments. Can your layout do that? I know mine can't. Not every model railroader wants to be an engineer.
[...]
One could probably ding the rebuilt BNSF layout at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago as well. There is animation but no switching / calssifying / etc. The trains go round and round and they have plenty of $$$ and volunteers to mind the store.
Personally, I like the MSI layout even though it is just a display and it seems other visitors like it also.
nucat78One could probably ding the rebuilt BNSF layout at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago as well. There is animation but no switching / calssifying / etc. The trains go round and round and they have plenty of $$$ and volunteers to mind the store. Personally, I like the MSI layout even though it is just a display and it seems other visitors like it also.
It does include turnouts, however.
There is a differance between a Display layout and a Model Railroad. Kevin
I can sympathize with Philly Bill. I once drove about an hour to see a display layout that was worse that what is pictured in his post. It was a very large layout but not what a model railroader would like to see. Even my son and his friend that went with me (they were 13 at the time) were disappointed.
We went there hoping to see something to admire and inspire as far as model railroading is concerned but instead, I was educated about knowing your audience. The layout we viewed was built to be seen by a general public that really doesn’t take detail and realism into consideration. They generally just want to see trains going around and round. It was obviously built to be setup, viewed, taken down and moved on the next event.
I cannot say that this is a bad layout. Many public layouts have little or no turnouts to cause derailments during extended constant running operations. I bet that the people that built it even had fun doing it.
There are some of us that don't mind having our own trains at home operate in a loop. Some great modelers come to mind like the late Lee VandeVisse and Malcom Furlow that built great layouts and enjoyed watching trains run. Limited operations don't mean that I am a Neanderthal and more than my use of DC versus DCC. Model Railroading is still fun.
I've created a forum online at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/basicmodelrailroading/
for folks that like to run trains in an uncomplicated way, and for those that are just getting started.
Mike Habersack
Mike Habersack http://rail. habersack. com
Maryland - the land of pleasant living...