I am having a bit of a quandry with some layout planning. I am building a L-shaped shelf layout (8ft x 6ft or 6ft x 4ft, 12"-15" wide) and am looking at some rail served industries. The problem I am running into is how many industries to put into this space. Some of the layouts I see have 5-8 in this space with others (like the Wisc. Southern) only having 5 or 6 in a large space. On the layout I would like to build a small town street with 5 businesses and maybe a small (2-3 houses) residential area. Any Ideas or thoughts?
I am sort of having a similar situation happening, The best thing I can say is scratch things down on a piece of paper or if you have the opportunity to do so lay track down just to get a visual if you have a track plan in mind or something close and use cardboard mock ups. I am at the point in certain parts of the layout where track and switches are down and I am just placing industry structures, main st. buildings etc. in place to see how they look. Call it a lack of vision or what ever you want but I'm one who has to visualise it before I make it permanent. I have had a small city scene in place that backs up to an small industrial complex with a few sidings which I intend to separate with a scene divider up now for a few months and I am still not 100% sold on the way it looks.
You would help potential advice givers if you provided the scale, era, and nature of the locale (region, whether rural or city), type of industry(ies) desired, etc. In my opinion, bigger industries are more realistic than smaller in most instances, and it is the number of "spots" individual cars can be located for loading/unloading rather than it is the number of industries that maximizes operations. I can conceive of several scenarios where your space might, only and in a highly abbreviated manner, accommodate only one industry.
Mark
I find that once I start adding appropriate structure kits to the track plan (to scale), the structure sizes pretty much determine how long, where, and how many spurs the layout can handle. Allowing space for reasonable or appropriate scenic transitions (might be nothing, might be a service road, etc.) between structures further limits the number. I do take advantage of partial buildings and flats by allowing the structures to go over the layout edge in the planning stage.
If doing the planning with actual track on the layout - technique I like to further refine plans - cardboard box stand-ins for structures (again, sized correctly) helps a lot with the visualization.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
One of my "if I had it to do over" items is MORE INDUSTRIES.
This should be high on your list from several perspectives. Industries give your railroad a reason to exist. They can be the most interesting scenic items on a layout. They are necessary to provide something to do for operations. A variety of industries gives you the opportunity to have a lot of different types of rolling stock - hoppers, box cars, stock cars, reefers, tanks, gons - many of which can be industry-specific and make more sense to run if there are industries that use them.
Personally, I'd go for more small industries rather than one or two large ones.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
If your goal is a switching layout, then the more the merrier. But you have to take into account that all the cars that fit in those sidings also have to have somewhere to go. If you're fiddle yard can handle 12 cars, then set up your industrial tracks to handle 12 cars. (12 industries with 1 car capacity, or 2 with 6 cars etc.) Obviously, this doesn't have to be a hard and fast rule, but it helps to what kind of operation you're after.
Also, if this is a small part of a larger layout, you can have more flexibility, since cars that might not get spotted due to space limits can be spotted elsewhere on the layout until the space frees up at the loading dock. The 1:1 trains have to do this all the time.
Another consideration is the types of industries, and the era, you want to model. In the steam era, everything moved by rail, so even small factories or warehouses would have a siding. If you're modeling a modern appliance factory or an auto parts warehouse, you might have one building, but it will be huge and handle a lot of cars.
In that space, you could also model a single industry that has sidings for several types of cars, like a paper mill. In various locations, it would receive pulpwood and wood chips, chemicals in tank cars, coal to fire the main power plant, machinery parts and equipment, maybe kaolin clay for coated paper, or bales of recycle material in gondolas or boxcars. Outbound tracks would ship finished paper from the warehouse, there's tanks for spent chemicals to go out for recycling, ash collected from the boiler house, plus empty coal hoppers, chip cars and pulp racks.
The question is, what do you want to do?
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
If you are going to have a large number of places to spot cars, it won't make much difference if you model separate industries at each spot or have all the spots in a single humongous business...
Two things to consider. If you model big industries, they should be mostly virtual - painted on the backdrop or imagined in the operating aisle. OTOH, suspension of disbelief gets difficult when the cubic content of a building is less than that of the box car parked at its loading dock...
If you'd like an idea of just how much railroading can go on in a single big industry, bring up your favorite map/satellite photo program and take a look at the Newport News, VA, shipyard that builds, among other things, aircraft carriers. Almost every building is served by rail.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I apologize for the missing information. I am modeling present era. The area I am modeling is the midwest (where I live in Iowa). I am figuring on 2 cars per industry with maybe 1 or 2 using 3. Some of the ideas I had are a warehouse, a small manufacturing factory, grain elevator, power plant, and a metal scrap yard.
Teamanglerx I apologize for the missing information. I am modeling present era. The area I am modeling is the midwest (where I live in Iowa). I am figuring on 2 cars per industry with maybe 1 or 2 using 3. Some of the ideas I had are a warehouse, a small manufacturing factory, grain elevator, power plant, and a metal scrap yard.
Cramped inner city area with old tall industrial brick buildings buildings crowded together wall to wall ?
Modern suburban industrial park with lawns and large parking lots between buildings ?
Small agricultural town with multiple industries strung out along one siding ?
Try to decide on what look and feel you are trying to create. Then look at pictures to decide what seems like a reasonable feel.
Robert Beaty's modern suburban industrial park:
My own plan "Federal Street Overpass"
Totally different look and feel. How many industries you can fit in (and what industries) depends on what look and feel you are going for.
Grin, Stein
Some industries that don't require a lot of space (or even structures), and can be squeezed in here or there, are:
* An interchange track with another railroad. Can be a single spur seen to be heading "off layout" thus implying the other road is "over that-a-way". Any car type in, any car type out.
* A trans-load/team track facility. Here's one for lumber in Pontiac, MI. You'd just need the one spur, the yard tracks seen next to the lot are not necessary.
* Bulk material depot. Here's a landscaping wholesaler in Waterford, MI, that gets stone & sand in open & closed hoppers, which are unloaded by mobile conveyors.
Good luck!
Steinjr, your federal layout was one I had been looking at for ideas (I think it is a great layout). Odave, I like the bulk material idea. I had never thought of that and could put that one on the edge as a "half" industry. Near the Quad Cities here there are some smaller communites that have large industrial parks mixed in with houses and businesses. That is the feel I think I am looking for. The Industries are not large ones but they used to have (and some still do) rail access.
TeamanglerxNear the Quad Cities here there are some smaller communites that have large industrial parks mixed in with houses and businesses. That is the feel I think I am looking for. The Industries are not large ones but they used to have (and some still do) rail access.
I had a look-around using http://www.bing.com/maps and looked at RR tracks north of Davenport using the "Bird's eye view".
Some fairly modelgenic industries in this area (Mount Joy - just east of Davenport Municipal Airport): http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=qy2fpr7fk9cq&style=b&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&scene=25617951&encType=1
Just scroll a little north and west to see some industries.
Smile, Stein
Thats funny you picked that area of the map. The company I worked for rented some of the warehouse space in the building south of the bulk loading area. The entire complex used to be a Catapillar plant before it closed. One of the areas I was looking at on the map is the Milan, Il area and Muscatine, IA area (I actually live in Muscatine). In Muscatine we have a large grain processing plant, a power company, and a lot of other industries that used to be service by rail. I have looked at the bird's eye view of Muscatine and followed the tracks around town.
Modern railroads tend to serve fewer but larger industries, rather than many smaller ones. A modern grain elevator or power plant would probably need more cars than what you are willing to devote to an industry, which you said was 1, 2 or 3 cars.
More consistent with modern industries that require fewer cars is your scrap yard idea, and the bulk material dealer. Also, a propane dealer or oil jobber/distributor could receive a few cars. A concrete batch plant also may receive a few carloads of cement in covered hoppers. Cement hoppers are shorter so you could fit more per siding. A batch plant could be a neighbor of the bulk materials dealer, when planning your scene.
Operationally, those industries would receive materials by rail, not ship. Again, rail shippers tend to use lots of cars at a time, so factor that into your planning as well. Perhaps the scrap yard could ship a few gondolas of shredded metal for a local steel plant, which could be very plausible if you have a John Deere plant nearby for instance (Davenport).
There is a prototype for everything, so researching for industries who frequently ship by rail, a few cars at a time, might be a fun challenge. A lot of us readers of the forum would be interested in finding those industries as well, so report back if/when you find some.
Have fun,
Doug
- Douglas
I happen to have a 24'x24' around the room HO layout, but with a limited area point-to-point layout you still might consider something like a steel mill. It has many related industries delivering materials such as limestone,(from a quarry) coke,(from a coke retort), iron ore,(from a mine or ore carrier) and scrap iron, to the blast furnace. The blast furnace delivers hot metal to the rolling mill, and gets rid of reuseable slag. The rolling mill sends out a variety of finish products with various types of railroad cars. You might scratch build or kitbash parts of each of these buildings and show the rest of the buildings virtually. Bob Hahn
TeamanglerxThats funny you picked that area of the map. The company I worked for rented some of the warehouse space in the building south of the bulk loading area. The entire complex used to be a Catapillar plant before it closed.
Thats funny you picked that area of the map. The company I worked for rented some of the warehouse space in the building south of the bulk loading area. The entire complex used to be a Catapillar plant before it closed.
Still looks like there still might be some kind of Caterpillar plant on the east side of the RR line a little further south in that area - at least there is a plant with a lot of yellowish vehicles next to the RR line down there.
TeamanglerxOne of the areas I was looking at on the map is the Milan, Il area and Muscatine, IA area (I actually live in Muscatine). In Muscatine we have a large grain processing plant, a power company, and a lot of other industries that used to be service by rail. I have looked at the bird's eye view of Muscatine and followed the tracks around town.
One of the areas I was looking at on the map is the Milan, Il area and Muscatine, IA area (I actually live in Muscatine). In Muscatine we have a large grain processing plant, a power company, and a lot of other industries that used to be service by rail. I have looked at the bird's eye view of Muscatine and followed the tracks around town.
I had a quick look-see. Muscatine has quite a bit of industry down by the river. And the railroad actually seems to run in a loop there - branching off from about Day Street, going down to about Oregon Street, through the big industrial area by the river (grain processing plant ?), and the out again along Industrial Connector Road before hitting the main again around Rodney Street.
I am looking forward to seeing what you choose to model and how you choose to model it.
Smile,Stein
There is are actual two large grain processing companies here in Muscatine. Both are served by rail. One of them is right next to the power plant whichs tracks make a loop back to the main. I have considered building a 2ft x 6ft reverse loop on the end (I have the space) and build this power plant / grain processing setup. There are several other industries I have found near by including a steel mill and a plastic pipe manufacturer in the town of Wilton, IA which is only 11 miles away to the north of Muscatine. Both of these are also served by rail. All of these and am considering for my layout. This weekend I am going to try and draw up a plan for you to see. If you have a layout idea feel free to draw it up. I do think your work is really good and I have been looking at several elements from from layouts.
As a side note my wife works for the power company here in town and she is going to arrange it sometime soon for me to ride the train while they are unloading coal. One of the plant managers also offered to get me all the ariel photos I needed to build a power plant on my layout.
A small industry that uses different cars fairly frequently is a plastic pipe plant. Theres one over by Yakima Washington that I always thought would make a good model for someone doing the present day scene. Hoppers full of plastic beads go in and flats and trucks of plastic pipe go out. The pipe I'm refering to is of the water and sewer pipe currently usesd by industry and municipalities, I need to take pix of that operation one of these days, Its a couple hundred miles away so its not convenient, but there is sort of a chemical palnta look with towers and tall vertical metal hoppers and quite a large storage yard full of various sizes of white and green pipe. BILL
For your reference.
I am modeling the west end of the Indiana Railroad that runs from Palestine, Il to Newton, Il in N scale. A total of about 30 miles. My benchwork and track plan is loosely the Wisconsin Central track plan in the October 2005 MR. My room is about 11.5'x14'. The prototype has a refinery where my brother works, a large Ethanol plant, a Hershey candy factory and several grain elevators along the way. I am taking the liberty of moving the ethanol plant from the east end to west end to balance the distribution of industries. Another industry that is not on the prototype but was by the tracks where I grew up was a Certain Teed irrigation pipe factory that would take hoppers of platic pellets and ship them out via truck to Tractor Supply etc. I am also going to add a wire factory that is not on the prototype but within 15 miles.
I will have a total of 9 industries on the layout and the refinery and ethanol plant will needs large amounts of cars. The other 1-3 each. I also have a 20"x16' staging yard with turning loop in a separate room in the basement.
Hope this gives you some perspective.
Teamanglerx his weekend I am going to try and draw up a plan for you to see. If you have a layout idea feel free to draw it up.
Mmm - I would recommend starting with listing your givens and druthers.
What are you looking for in your layout ?
I assume from context probably industrial switching, but what kind of industrial switching?
Is it e.g. important to you whether an operating session starts with a train arriving from somewhere else (ie from hidden staging), that the session ends with your train departing from the area ("heading back to the yard"), and that you have the option of pulling more cars from off-stage and pushing more cars into staging during the operations ?
Or would you be okay with setting up your train on the visible layout and start your operating session with your train "having just arrived" or "inbound cars having been dropped off in a visible siding by an earlier train", and the session ending with your train "about to depart" or with "outbound cars left on a siding ready to be picked up by a later train" ?
You want to model railroading today.How committed are you to that ? What train lengths (number of cars) do you want to plan for ? What length cars ?
Remember that modern cars are generally longer than old time cars. A 40-foot car takes about 5 1/2 inches in H0 scale (40 feet x12 inches / 87.1), while a 60-foot car takes about 8 1/4 inch and a 89-foot car takes about 12.2" (ie a little over a foot). Or put another way - in 6 feet of length you can fit thirteen 40-foot cars or five 89-foot cars.
Are you sure that you want/need H0 scale - is N scale an option ?
A given length will functionally be 1.8 (160/87.1) times larger in N scale than in H0 scale - ie a L-shaped 8 x 6 feet 15" deep space used for N scale instead of H0 scale will functionally be as if you had an 14 x 11 feet 24" deep H0 scale layout. One ramification is that you in N scale in 6 feet of layout length can fit nine 89-foot cars or twenty-three 40-foot cars.
Always one operator or will you realistically sometimes probably run trains with two or three people?
You mention that you have room for a turnback curve. It is usually smart to draw the entire room and show distances, doors, windows, necessary aisles and other uses for the room - it may be that there are smart ways of organizing the benchwork (say a detachable peninsula sticking into the room, making the L-shaped layout U-shaped when running trains, but L-shaped when you are not running) .
Here is e.g. a simple H0 scale switching layout in 6x10 feet (scaled up from Linda Sand's original 5x9 foot layout in the article "Big City Railroading Doesn't Need Big Spaces" from Model Railroad Planning 1999):
(H0 scale cars illustrated in the plan above is 40' cars - 60' cars are 1.5 times as long, 89' cars is 2.2. times as long)
Just a few things to think about. I am not saying "do this in N scale" or "don't do this with modern cars" or anything like that - I am just saying that thinking about what you want to be able to do on the layout should come before the track plan.
My plan is to do N scale to get the most out of my space. I am still considering HO scale but I am 80% sure it will be N scale. The layout will be built in my basement which is a wide open 18ft x 10ft space with no windows, doors, water heaters, etc in the space.
Staging is still an undecided issue. I have tosses around the idea of hidden staging vs. a train strating on a visable interchange track. As for train lenght I am looking at 5 cars plus 2 locos (most likely GP38s or GP15s).
Operator wise it will 99% of the time be one (me). Rarely will there be another operator.
TeamanglerxMy plan is to do N scale to get the most out of my space. I am still considering HO scale but I am 80% sure it will be N scale. The layout will be built in my basement which is a wide open 18ft x 10ft space with no windows, doors, water heaters, etc in the space. Staging is still an undecided issue. I have tosses around the idea of hidden staging vs. a train strating on a visable interchange track. As for train lenght I am looking at 5 cars plus 2 locos (most likely GP38s or GP15s).
Mmmm - you have an 18x10 feet space with _no_ obstacles and no "must-avoid" zones available, but you want to build just a 6x8 L-shaped N scale layout in all that space?
A GP-38s is about 60 foot long - about 4.5" in N scale. Two GP38s and 5 60-foot cars would be about a toal 32 inches - 2 1/2 feet.
Hmmm - don't know if this has any relevance whatsoever, but a while back I was playing a little with an N scale track plan from another poster - based on the Pike City Belt line from the September 1998 Model Railroader, about the size you are talking about (except it has a peninsula out onto the floor, not an L-shape along two walls) - it was designed for about the same size trains:
There is a discussions of the various parts of the plan above here: http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/158148/1744625.aspx- might have some small parts that could be cannibalized for your layout.
Well, back to carpentry for me - I am working on rebuilding my benchwork and dust is flying :-)
hi Tea (high tea?)
TeamanglerxThe layout will be built in my basement which is a wide open 18ft x 10ft space with no windows, doors, water heaters, etc in the space.
A basement with no door seems cute to me; if you do not want to discuss your space say so. At least we should know how to enter your space and where. Make a drawing please !; better then a 1000 words.
TeamanglerxAs for train lenght I am looking at 5 cars plus 2 locos (most likely GP38s or GP15s).
A very small train for two engines. And given the space you have, your trains can hold far more cars. IWith trains that small I would think about building in HO.
I will give you a N-scale version of my layout(plan). It is part of my attic and fills a 12x10 space; a lot of railroading fits in. (train length is just over 4 foot; 2 engines, 8 fifty-foot cars and a caboose)
TeamanglerxI have tosses around the idea of hidden staging vs. a train strating on a visable interchange track.
I do not get the picture here, please do explain what you mean by strating a train. On my plan the staging tracks are out in the open but conceiled from the visible part.
I provided my plan to give you an idea about the possibility's of N-scale; a lot can be done, but also there is a lot to pay for, all the switches, all the cars all the buildings, etc. Compare this plan with the design Stein gave you. (the one by Linda Sand/Steinjr)
BTW every digital camera can make a downloadable pic of a drawing. I made my first drawing in RTS after a 1 week struggle; Stein made a point here (not only here!!), a cad program never makes a layout better; your thoughts are doing the job first, your hands later on.
BTW(editing later: you will build only a small layout in that huge room, you were right; no use talking about doors etc, ....sorry Paul
Keep having fun and keep smiling
Paul
Good luck
While I do have a lot of space I want to keep my layout small for now. We might be moving in the near future and I do not know what space I would have available in our new location. By building a small shelf layout I can enjoy having a railroad to work on that can be easily moved.
What I meant to say was starting a train on a visable interchange track. Using a two loco setup is common railroad operating practice in my location, even with small trains (I just saw 2 locos pulling 7 cars through town today). From what I understand it is so they don't have to turn a loco around so its facing the the right direction.
In my L shaped layout - right now about 12' x 16', 16" wide shelfs - I use three flats as industries, plus a coal dealer with trestle and a team track. Each one generally gets two cars on average, My runaround track is set up to allow me to run around about 12 cars so this works pretty well.
Keep in mind not everything has to be an industry. I have a spot where I put in an engine house too, and will add some engine servicing and yard buildings as the layout progresses. It's kinda fun to start a session with a steam engine rolling out of the engine house, stopping at a water tank, and then start it's daily switching work.