Sheldon:
It was just a casual comment. I have no desire to spin his thread off into a DC vs DCC debate. There is room in the hobby for both.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe VetI know you feel more comfortable with analog, and I respect that, but it would drive me crazy playing with all those rotary switches and trying to keep track of which block of track is controlled by which throttle.
And, as I have explained many times, analog does not require "all those rotary switches". In fact rotary switches ARE likely the most difficult way to operate an analog layout.
There are at least a half dozen ways to wire/operate an analog layout, with more than two cabs, without using rotary switches.
I would bet that 90% of todays DCC users have never seen or operated a well planned and installed analog control system.
Control systems should be tailored to operational goals, one size does not fit all. DCC is very nice in some ways, but can be very costly and more complex than any analog system depending on your goals, layout size, locomotive fleet size, etc.
I'll hold out for good battery powered radio control before I install "stuff" in my locos.
DCC assumes the desire to "be the Engineer" but some people would prefer to run the whole system or have the option to do both. To do that with DCC requires an intire additional infrastructure beyond the actual control system. Same is true for signaling. But I can build an analog system with intergrated signals and system control for about the same cost as basic DCC for any given layout size.
So by staying analog, I get signals and display running as no cost extras.
Admittedly, I don't get certian features of DCC, but why do DCC users assume everyone wants all those features?
I don't want, don't need or am indifferent about: sound, consisting, helpers, speed matching, BEMF or headlight control.
I want signals and safe multi train operation for display running as well as "operational" running.
I have wireless radio throttles and easy to use controls (on my throttles and panels) without DCC.
Sheldon
I know you feel more comfortable with analog, and I respect that, but it would drive me crazy playing with all those rotary switches and trying to keep track of which block of track is controlled by which throttle.
I love being able to dial in the road number on the side of the engine and knowing that the throttle in my hand is controling it no matter where it is on the layout. Even my 6 year old granddaughter can control Thomas the Tank Engine anywhere on the layout without leaving her stool while her 12 year old sister is running a "real" train on the same layout.
A few quick replies:
First, my hesitance to adopt DCC is primarily due to the large roster of analog engines that I own, which would be expensive to retrofit with decoders and more hassle than I believe it's worth. Second factor is that I like to fully understand what I'm building, and analog control systems make sense to me; I know how DCC works, conceptually, but I don't have a thorough technical knowledge of it, and am not really interested in gaining such, at least not right now.
Next, the panel graphics is not at all to scale, it's an abstraction, though not greatly distorted. I showed all switches with the same length of track beyond the frog, even though many blocks will begin right after the switch.
The concern mentioned a couple of times about momentary assignment to unwanted blocks because of the rotary switches does bother me a bit, which means I'll give some thought to alternatives. I was always figuring that a road crew would line up the blocks ahead of their train, but a train that has holed up somewhere with the rotary dialed to 6 (off) might experience this when reassigned to an active cab, and the enginehouse (on another panel) would be especially problematic.
I have not decided on power routing turnouts yet; I'm using Micro-Engineering code 55 track and turnouts, which have a metal frog, but I was figuring I could gap around the frog if necessary.
As for number of trains meeting here, I figure I might have full trains on the main and A/D track, a switcher working the yard, and the 4th cab is really overflow; all 4 cabs are common to the whole layout, so it's more likely that Cab D will be another crew operating elsewhere on the layout. In practicality, only 2 cabs will probably operate simultaneously here, most of the time. But I want a crew to be able to pick up the throttle for Cab C, say, and stick with that cab assignment for their entire tour of the layout. A possible way to achieve this is just to limit the number of cabs to 2 by only providing 2 jacks for the handhelds, and use rotaries to select which 2 these are (ie. jack 1 can be assigned to A while jack 2 is assigned to D, for that control panel); then all the actual blocks are controlled with good-old DPDT's between these two sources. This would avoid the momentary assignment issue (the DPDT's center off protects the block while you select a cab).
I like how many suggestions I've already gotten; I'm gonna be out of town this weekend, but I'll check back here eagerly on Monday. Er, Sunday night more likely!
As for how I've created my panel, I'm using Canvas by Deneba, a vector-art drawing program; I print it out with the color laser printer at work, then spray mount to masonite (the black border wraps around the edge with the white adhering to the back, so when screwed down there is not only a glue connection front and back, but also a mechanical connection as the paper is sandwiched between masonite substrate and supporting benchwork).
With the rotary switches set up the way you currently show them, potential problems exist if you are opeerating more than 1 cab at a time. Assume that the rotary switches in this yard area are all set for cab B and someone is busily switching in the yard. Someone else is operating on another section of the layout using cab A but needs to switch to cab C or D. When they move the rotary switch through position B, their engine will be momentarily connected to the same cab as the yard and the engine will try to run in the direction and at the speed that is currently set on cab B. It will be momentary but it is there. Of course, it changes as soon as the switch moves past the B position. One way around this is to put a SPST (or SPDT) switch in the line from each rotary switch common to the track block that it conrols - then always turn off the switch before moving the cab switch and turn it back on after moving the cab switch.
I realize that you stated that you are 'old-school' but unless you have a really cheap source of switches and wire, you could wind up spending as much on switches, control panels, cabs (power supplies and controllers) and wires as you would to buy an entry level DCC system - not to mention the 'operation aggravation' of toggling blocks and cabs on and off. Just something to think about.
John
Regards,
"You are what you eat," said a wise old man. Oh Lord, if it's true, I'm a garbage can.
WP&P,
Rather than try to point out problems without seeing your intire track plan, I'm going to first suggest that you read Paul Mallery's "Electrical Handbook for Model Railroads" and learn specficly about power routing with turnout position and about X sections.
X sections, sometimes called floating blocks, can easily cut in half the number of block selectors you need with no loss of control flexiblity.
Additionally, I can provide you with a circuit that eliminates the selector switches, replaces them with lighted push buttons and allows the blocks to be selected from multiple locations, with the lights indicating which cab the block is asigned to. Rotary switches have one fatal flaw as cab selectors, as you move from cab to cab, other active cabs of other operators are momentarly assigned to your block. My push button circuit eliminates that by directly turning off the current cab and than engaging only the selected cab.
At first glance it appears to me you have too many blocks and some of your block boundries are not in good locations. Example: Block W6 should not extend onto the the trackage between W8 and W7.
Another very usefull resource are the articles by Ed Ravenscroft in 1973 MR about his MZL control. The system I use is partly based on the system Ed developed.
I use DC, with wireless walk around Aristo Craft Train Egineer throttles. Most of my power routing is slected by turnout postion. Track with turnouts set against the flow are automaticly turned off. This is not done with power routing turnouts but rather with relays and contacts on switch machines or ground throws to allow greater flexibility. Additonally the wiring I use provents trains from over running their blocks by automaticly creating dead zones between blocks assigned to different cabs.
Additionaly, if you have any interest in signaling, the wiring I use provides turnout interlocking logic needed for signals and can support a simple two color signal system with complex signal drivers or computers.
If any of this sounds interesting or usefull, contact me with a PM and I will send you some drawings and info.
Sorry I cut my answer in two, going to fast with the computer
Like you I have used rotary switch to distribute the power to dedicated cab, it's a good way to work with it.
I just have put a SPDT before the rotary, if needed, you can shut down the power on each block; a led indicate if there is power on this block or not.
If you want another track and isolate it to let stay an engine there, I beleive you have three way to do it.
First i'ts the route of the turnout which determinate the power to the track (a relay or the contact of the switch machine).
Second the power of this track is open or closet by a switch on the panel.( that mean the track is a "little block")
Third the rotary cab control power this track when a cab is determinated, but you make at this time an always live track.
If I need to make the choice I prefer the switch on the panel with a led to tell me if the power is open or not.
Congratulation for the quality of your panel; would learn much about how you do it.
Marc
Hi from Belgium,
I use DCC control for my layout since 1998 which is somewhere easier to power. (I say somewhere.....)
Before like You I use block control, but long before I use DCC, I wired all the track and especialy turnouts and other switches for DCC.
The reason is because I am Modeling in N scale and I need a good electrical continuity in all the frog.
Anyway it proved a bullet proof way to wire everything because the frog or other specials tracks were isolate.
I used blocks with no common rail but at the panel the electrical distribution was with a common rail, this make easier to find a short of something else in each block.
Choice always the same side of track for minus or positif of DC and use a dual color for this purpose. For special isolate track like W9 or any other type of isolate track wire it as a separate block.
It will be easy now to wire it with any other block and find , in fact your problem, polarity and avoid the short.
Good luck.
looks like you might get a dead short on the bottom yard track where it connects to the lead and cab track. it is in effect a crossover. just above the letter "C" on rotary w3. or had you intended to put a gap in there and then run a jumper around the frog? i assume all the yard tracks are power routed by turnout position. right?
grizlump
If the panel is near to scale, then I would move the block break (on the track) between W6 and W8 to the left all the way to the switch where W8 turns towards W3. This would give me more room to bring something out of W6 and then go into the yard, and vice versa, without interfering with the main. This would make it necessary to use W6 for a move between W4 and W8. If this is unacceptable, then I would isolate the part with the switch from W8 to W4 and connect it to W8 and W6 with a DPDT.
With the DPDT to the left the tracks would be connected as you show them now. With the DPDT to the right W6 would extend to the left up to the switch where W8 goes to W3.
When I expand from two throttles I probably won't have all throttles service all blocks. Instead, I'll probably have one throttle dedicated to the yards, two for my directional running double track mountain division, and two for my (mostly) directional running double track main. But that's a long way into the future, since I have only two running locomotives at the moment and no mountain division. I'll get along with two throttles and DPDTs for now.
I'm an old-skool modeller, building an analog-controlled layout. As such, I have to think through how I am breaking it up into electrical blocks. Fundamentally, I'm going to have 4 memory walkaround throttles, and I'm going to use 6-position rotary switches to choose among the cabs for each block. Position 1 will be Off, 2 thru 5 are the cabs (A,B,C,D) and 6 is reserved for future use; if I add DCC then maybe it goes on this circuit, allowing mixed-mode operation, but for now it's just another off position.
However, some blocks don't need a full rotary switch; rather, they'll be on toggles that work a coupel of different ways. On way is just an SPST that turns a given track OFF; I'll use this for enginehouse tracks to break them up and allow multiple engines to park there. Another way is that a given block can be DPDT with the two options being the output of the blocks on either side of it... ie. Block 2 might just toggle between Block 1 and Block 3. This is useful for the length of single-track mainline between two towns, where it might need to be used for switching moves at either town. This way, that stretch of main can "belong" to either town, as needed.
With all that said, I've worked up the graphics for my most complex control panel, and am posting it here for comments. I want to find out if anybody has suggestions for better ways to break up this plan into blocks. The block W5A is an SPST child of W5 (can be used as a cut-out for helpers). The mainline is W3 and W8; W4 is the primary A/D track, W5 is a short passing siding that is in front of the depot (used for shorter passenger trains way back when). W6 is an industrial spur which I once had separate from the yard throat, but I figured I wouldn't ever be switching this with anything other than the yard boss anyways. W7 is the yard, and I figured the entire yard goes on one circuit. Then, W9 is actually a caboose track, but I put it on DPDT that toggles between W6 and W7 (center off), so that a second switcher can hole up there if necessary. I'm contemplating adding a drill track, but that would just branch off of W6 and then parallel the main. Any thoughts?