I am getting ready to build a 2'x8' switching layout using handlaid code 83 track and turnouts. I will be using 1/2" plywood for the subroadbed...but my question concerns the next layer. I thought about using 1" or 2" foam to allow for some contouring. My first thought was no, that stuff won't hold spikes. Then I realized the spikes are actually going into the wooden ties that are glued to the foam. So would foam work? I am also looking at sheet cork, regular cork roadbed or some sort of sound board. Homasote is impossible to find in Florida, at least where I live, so thats out. Anone have any experience with handlaid track and foam? Or have a better suggestion. I am open to all ideas.
Thanks
John
The Dames Point Industrial Railroad
http:\\dpirr.blogspot.com
I assume you are building in HO standard gauge with the code 83 rail.
My experience with handlaid track in HO scale is that the ties we use are too thin and too soft to be the only anchor for the rail spikes. There is too much side pressure at times on the rails and too little "meat" in the tie to hold over the long term. Also, I don't know of any spikes short enough to not protrude beneath the tie - ties are about 1/16" thick (or less after sanding the tops level). In larger scales where thicker ties are correct, there probably is enough wood in the tie to bear the load.
So 2-3 qualities are needed from the roadbed. 1) It must be soft enough to accept the spikes protruding from the ties. This includes the glue holding the ties to the roadbed! 2) The roadbed must provide a reasonably firm surface that won't dent or give under the pressures of spiking. 3) Ideally, the roadbed should provide some side support to the inserted spike to strengthen it's rail holding power. 4) Noise reduction is usually a desired roadbed quality, too.
Cork has failed for most who use it as roadbed for handlaid track (there are reported exceptions). In my experience, when new, it has a fair amount of give and cannot be trusted to hold ties exactly where you glued them. The "spring" tends to guide spike tips where the cork wants, not where you want. And in the long term (5-10 years in my experience) it dries out and crumbles, providing zero side support to the spikes and ties, although it still looks OK.
Soft pine has been successfully used for roadbed since the early days of track building. My experience is that unless glue dilution and spreading is controlled, the glue and wood grain will combine for occasional hard spots that will bend any spike I try to put there. Drilling a pilot hole or moving the spike slightly usually solves the problem. Aside from the occasional hard spots, soft wood roadbed works very well. Luaun plywood has similar qualities if the spikes are short enough not to hit the 1st glue layer in the plywood.
Homasote is ideal. Use their web site to find it. Home Despot carries 3.5 inch wide by 10ft long strips of it used for concrete forms (in the concrete sections). California Roadbed sells Homasote already cut and milled into roadbed profiles, called Homa-bed. And traditonal lumber stores (not Home Despot or Loste's) often have Homasote and the extruded foam that the chains do not. And they will actually know what you are talking about. Just call in advance after checking the web site to see if it's actually in stock.
Going back to the roadbed criteria, foam fails on a couple of points. However, if you are using glued construction (rail glued to ties) instead of spiking, you no longer have the denting possibilities and spike holding is not required. The other gotcha to foam roadbed is that the heat of a nearby soldering iron when attaching feeders or soldering frogs, guard rails, or throwbars could create some interesting and unwanted terrain effects. But I have used Homasote on top of foam with excellent results.
Upson Board is/has been used as a satisfactory substitute for Homasote (including by me). Probably my 2nd choice for roadbed for handlaid track. Unfortunately, it's now nearly as hard to find as the Homasote.
The other insulation boards, ceiling tiles, etc., tend to be too coarse and not dense enough to hold spikes well. I'm sure all have been tried at one time or another due to availability and cost issues for Homasote. But I don't have any consistent reports or information.
Some hand layers have reported good results with Vinylbed, which is made from re-cycled rubber. Others have said that it too suffers from hard spots.
hope this helps
Fred W
Some people use cork roadbed. Another product is "Homabed", which is actually Homasote milled to 1/4 or 1/8" thick.
You should try laying track on the foam, I tested a some laying on cork over foam and I felt the foam was too "squishy", that the foam would deflect vertically under the pressure of driving the spike. Maybe its not significant, but I didn't trust that combination so went back to Homasote.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Thanks for the replies and suggestions, Fred and Dave. Unfortunately here in North Floirda, even Home Depot does not carry Homasote. You get a "deer in the headlights" look when you even ask. So unless I want to pay some exorbitant shipping costs, I need to find something nearby. I did check with several local lumber yards that Homasote lists as carrying their product. Same answer. What?
Now gluing the rails to the ties is a thought. But then what do I do with the package of 1000 spikes I just bought? Put them in as decorations I guess.
No, I want to use the spikes to actually hold the rails in place..Soft pine..now theres a thought. Probably soft enough to not bend the spike but firm enough to hold it. And If I want to add some contour between the rails, I guess a small router could do that. Maybe soft pine is the answer.
Thanks aagin
jbu50Soft pine..now theres a thought. Probably soft enough to not bend the spike but firm enough to hold it. And If I want to add some contour between the rails, I guess a small router could do that. Maybe soft pine is the answer. Thanks aagin John
Soft pine..now theres a thought. Probably soft enough to not bend the spike but firm enough to hold it. And If I want to add some contour between the rails, I guess a small router could do that. Maybe soft pine is the answer.
I alluded to this in my 1st post. If using soft pine or redwood or the white wood now sold as lumber by Home Depot, dilute white or yellow glue about 1:1 with water to glue the ties. Also, spread the glue thinly and evenly. Otherwise, I ended up with the hard spots I alluded to - which will curl your spikes. If you use a softer curing glue like matte medium or latex caulk, this may not be a problem.
just my experiences
jbu50Unfortunately here in North Floirda, even Home Depot does not carry Homasote. You get a "deer in the headlights" look when you even ask.
Unfortunately here in North Floirda, even Home Depot does not carry Homasote. You get a "deer in the headlights" look when you even ask.
See if your local Home Depot or other home improvement big box or lumber yards carry a product called Sound Board. It is very similar to Homasote but is made by Celotex Corporation from highly compressed sugar cane and other vegetable fibers. It comes in 4 x 8 foot, 1/2 inch thick sheets and makes an ideal roadbed or layout surface.
The only difference twixt thee and me is that I lay 'plain Jane' track with flex, and only hand-lay my specialwork.
My roadbed-to-base-of-rail sandwich consists of:
A key ingredient of the above is the latex caulk which is used to join each layer to the next. It grabs the spikes like a bulldog grabbing a chew-toy, and they do NOT pull out easily. Also, the cardstock provides lateral stability.
So far, my oldest trackwork built to this standard has survived three years of almost-daily operation in a non-climate-controlled garage in the Dessicated Desert without problems. Ongoing construction is continuing with the same materials and methods.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
tomikawaTTMy roadbed-to-base-of-rail sandwich consists of: Plywood subgrade. Thin foam (fan-fold underlayment, used under vinyl or metal siding.) a full-size cardstock track template. Ties, either plastic or balsa. A key ingredient of the above is the latex caulk which is used to join each layer to the next. It grabs the spikes like a bulldog grabbing a chew-toy, and they do NOT pull out easily. Also, the cardstock provides lateral stability.
Chuck - can you tell us a bit more about your "cardstock"? This could vary from 3x5 cards or postcard thickness to the almost rigid brown stuff at the back of a pad of notebook paper. And presumably, larger than 8-1/2x11 would be handier, too.
- Gerhard
gerhard_ktomikawaTT My roadbed-to-base-of-rail sandwich consists of: a full-size cardstock track template. A key ingredient of the above is the latex caulk which is used to join each layer to the next. It grabs the spikes like a bulldog grabbing a chew-toy, and they do NOT pull out easily. Also, the cardstock provides lateral stability. Chuck - can you tell us a bit more about your "cardstock"? This could vary from 3x5 cards or postcard thickness to the almost rigid brown stuff at the back of a pad of notebook paper. And presumably, larger than 8-1/2x11 would be handier, too. - Gerhard
tomikawaTT My roadbed-to-base-of-rail sandwich consists of: a full-size cardstock track template. A key ingredient of the above is the latex caulk which is used to join each layer to the next. It grabs the spikes like a bulldog grabbing a chew-toy, and they do NOT pull out easily. Also, the cardstock provides lateral stability.
The cardstock I use comes in 20x30 sheets from my local big-box office supply house. It has a smooth white finish (great for drawing!) and is about the thickness of file folder stock (or cheap cereal box stock.)
I lay out the track plan full size, using flex track and/or a pre-measured beam compass (for true curves) and a long carpenter's level (for honest tangents.) After marking the tie-end line, I cookie-cut the cardstock and lay it right on the ballast form. The hard edges make positive location of flex track the norm rather than the exception.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with flex track and hand-laid specialwork)
"Gatorboard" is a denser, more rigid (and black) version of foamboard that I just used as a backing for thin cork tiles in a tackboard. It seems to hold pushpins very well; presumably it will do the same for spikes. Has anyone tried it as roadbed?
Dante
I've heard of something like 1/4" luan plywood being used. Another thing mentioned to me in a similar post is the same stuff as the usual 1 and 2 inch pink foam, but made in a 9mm thick foam board. It might be that lynoliam underlayment stuff that was mentioned.